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CAM for 88x94 low rpm motor
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HotStreetVw
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello,

Here are a few simple calculations, formulas stolen from cal-look.no

Quick calculation RPM = (3300000 * Port Dia * Port Dia)/(Bore * Bore * Stroke)

Port Dia= valve dia * .88 (.88 is conservative)

HP = Displacement (liters) * RPM * Bmep /910

42mm valve, peak power @ 5800rpm, 194hp

44mm valve, peak power @6362rpm, 213hp.

46mm valve, peak power @ 7000rpm, 233hp

The TF-1 is a great platform for a monster is capable of withstanding higher rpm than a mag. Why limit yourself to 6k? There is a lot left on table. You will have plenty of torque. IMO, dont run anything smaller than a FK45.

5.5 rods are pretty short for a 88 stroke.

IDAs absolutely.

Roller cam if you have the cash. you can shorten up the duration just due to opening the valve faster. higher cylinder pressures, more torque/hp at lower RPMs. but it takes springs to control it.
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vw donvieira
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 12:12 am    Post subject: Re: CAM for 88x94 low rpm motor Reply with quote

Thanks a bunch.

-I just ordered a web cam 86a with clearing and web lifters.

-Low rpm because it is going in my '59 bus.

-I am gonna order the ACN SS in "C" pin height (1.055" vs "B" pin of 1.380"), will that make using the "regular" cylinder ok or should I get the long cylinders for machine down.

-CR of 9 or 9.5:1

-I am going 5.7 rod, CB? or any other recommendation?
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youngnstudly
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 1:36 am    Post subject: Re: CAM for 88x94 low rpm motor Reply with quote

Thanks a bunch for WHAT, exactly??? Everyone taking time to give you advice that you have no intentions of using? Not ONE person recommended the 86a cam you asked about, in fact many suggested other cams instead that would better suit your engine due to the unusually large displacement of your engine (and combo of parts capable of easily making 150+hp that you plan to use), yet you waste everyone's time only to go and purchase the cam you originally asked about in your first post. Rolling Eyes

For rod, cylinder, compression, and piston recommendations, I suggest the 50/50 combo to relieve 50% of the work involved with assembly. Half an order of "regular" cylinders, the other half with the machine down cylinders, half the engine with 9:1 compression, the other half with 9.5:1. Two SS pistons with the "C" pin height, two with the "B" pin height. Two 5.7 rods, two rods of any other length. That way you're guaranteed to build at least half the engine with the correct components. Don't forget the 50/50 cam and lifter combo if you really want to blow off those Porsches and rice burners. It's similar to a Duntov 30-30 cam, but better by 20-20! Works good on the freeway too, high OR low RPM.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 7:20 am    Post subject: Re: CAM for 88x94 low rpm motor Reply with quote

youngnstudly wrote:
Thanks a bunch for WHAT, exactly??? Everyone taking time to give you advice that you have no intentions of using? Not ONE person recommended the 86a cam you asked about, in fact many suggested other cams instead that would better suit your engine due to the unusually large displacement of your engine (and combo of parts capable of easily making 150+hp that you plan to use), yet you waste everyone's time only to go and purchase the cam you originally asked about in your first post. Rolling Eyes

For rod, cylinder, compression, and piston recommendations, I suggest the 50/50 combo to relieve 50% of the work involved with assembly. Half an order of "regular" cylinders, the other half with the machine down cylinders, half the engine with 9:1 compression, the other half with 9.5:1. Two SS pistons with the "C" pin height, two with the "B" pin height. Two 5.7 rods, two rods of any other length. That way you're guaranteed to build at least half the engine with the correct components. Don't forget the 50/50 cam and lifter combo if you really want to blow off those Porsches and rice burners. It's similar to a Duntov 30-30 cam, but better by 20-20! Works good on the freeway too, high OR low RPM.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 9:01 am    Post subject: Re: CAM for 88x94 low rpm motor Reply with quote

youngnstudly wrote:
Thanks a bunch for WHAT, exactly??? Everyone taking time to give you advice that you have no intentions of using? Not ONE person recommended the 86a cam you asked about, in fact many suggested other cams instead that would better suit your engine due to the unusually large displacement of your engine (and combo of parts capable of easily making 150+hp that you plan to use), yet you waste everyone's time only to go and purchase the cam you originally asked about in your first post. Rolling Eyes


Hmmm...

MURZI wrote:
Again solicit the wisdom of those that have built something like this. You may be asking the wrong audience on this forum.


I would venture to guess donvieira followed MURZI's advice. Don't be so butthurt because he didn't follow yours Laughing Laughing Laughing
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:06 am    Post subject: Re: CAM for 88x94 low rpm motor Reply with quote

I am a little more conservative with my builds.

-I did change my mind on some items after speaking with Ken Jansen in person and with Web camshafts (I prefer Web).

-I love all the info because it makes me research even more.

-No need to burn a piston top over, that is what "discussion boards" are for.

-I do really appreciate the input.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:16 am    Post subject: Re: CAM for 88x94 low rpm motor Reply with quote

Ive never seen any hp figures for valves like that. shit I jave a few thousand hp just in manley boxes. thats more internet bs for the clueless.but if you go by it you should be good to go. Wink and I was thinken I had around 147 hp but now I see I have 194 hp ...sweet!!!!! my new 2" valve heads should realy fly.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 6:42 pm    Post subject: Re: CAM for 88x94 low rpm motor Reply with quote

I like your choice of using the 5.7 Rods, that will help get your rod ratio little better then the 5.5's and add some more life to it.

Jeff
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 7:16 pm    Post subject: Re: CAM for 88x94 low rpm motor Reply with quote

vw donvieira wrote:
I am a little more conservative with my builds.

-I did change my mind on some items after speaking with Ken Jansen in person and with Web camshafts (I prefer Web).

-I love all the info because it makes me research even more.

-No need to burn a piston top over, that is what "discussion boards" are for.

-I do really appreciate the input.


What's conservative about this engine? Smile
The "C" pistons? The ginormous crank? Lol
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 9:41 pm    Post subject: Re: CAM for 88x94 low rpm motor Reply with quote

I know someone who built an 88 x 94 with a type one case and an fk 46. Engine made around 190 FW HP with belt on at about 4000 feet. It had some really nice Clyde Berg heads 44 x 37.5. I think the rods were 5.6 so it can be done. Maybe he'll see this and add some info.
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HotStreetVw
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 5:21 am    Post subject: Re: CAM for 88x94 low rpm motor Reply with quote

Mark, step out of the stone age.

These are theroretical maximums based on potential flow and efficency. Using port diameter of .88 valve diameter (potential flow) and Bmep of 12.5 (efficency)

Lets take for example the top 5 engines in the HotVWs engine builder showdown.

Builder - CC - Valve Diameter - Theoretical HP@Theoretical RPM - Dyno HP@Dyno RPM - Comments

CB Performance - 2332cc - 46mm - estimate 233hp @ 7285rpm - actual 224HP@6500rpm - they didn't pull past 6500rpm, with a FK89 type cam this will continue to make power as the RPMs increase and I bet will land close to the expectation. This is easily a 230hp engine. They sell it as a 220hp 2387, but with 48 IDAs and match ported intakes. Im pretty sure the one in the showdown had welded intakes and 51.5s.

Performance Workshop (Tims)- 2332 - 42mm!! - estimate 194hp@6073rpm - actual 214hp@6500rpm - holy crap smokin it with a 42mm valve. I bet a lot of this has to do with the enormous lift. Numbers don't match up well because this engine Port area exceeds the .88 rule of thumb.

Geoff Hart Racing - 2332 - 46mm - estimate 233hp@7285rpm - actual 211hp@6500rpm - again this engine would continue to make more power with RPM but they were conservative with 40 vents.

Bugpack - 2332 - 44mm - estimate 213hp@6665rpm - actual 211hp@6500rpm - wow, pretty much dead nuts. 42 vents, this thing is making good power for that valve.

Brothers Machine - 2332 - estimate 213hp@6665 - actual 204hp@6500 - a little on the low side. they have 44mm vents, should be enough. my guess is the heads dont flow up to the .88 ratio.

Lets also look at the lowest HP in the showdown. I guess your engine falls into this catagory. Berg - 2275 - estimate 213hp@6828 - actual 172hp@6500rpm - Engle 125 with 7:1 compression. This engine has a good combination of parts with the exception of the cam and compression...

How about the JPM 1915? I think it ran the MS230 heads with 48mm valves. estimate 254hp@9600rpm, it made 243hp@?? im guessing he didn't sing it to 10k. If I plug in 9000rpm it estimates 236hp, pretty F-n close.

AFR has an interesting dyno LS1 dyno comparison where they ran a set of 205 heads with 2" valves, estimate 569hp@7300rpm, actual 530hp@6500rpm. Pretty dang close. I doubt the CAM is on kill either. With IR intakes and big CAMs our engines have an advantage.

Better get those valves out of the boxes.

mark tucker wrote:
Ive never seen any hp figures for valves like that. shit I jave a few thousand hp just in manley boxes. thats more internet bs for the clueless.but if you go by it you should be good to go. Wink and I was thinken I had around 147 hp but now I see I have 194 hp ...sweet!!!!! my new 2" valve heads should realy fly.

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Nando_b63
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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2021 2:25 pm    Post subject: Re: CAM for 88x94 low rpm motor Reply with quote

So , any updates..
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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2021 6:56 pm    Post subject: Re: CAM for 88x94 low rpm motor Reply with quote

Nando_b63 wrote:
So , any updates..
.................................................................................... my self i think he found out how much money it would take to build a 88x94 motor .and what a pain in the ass to build one . the motor would be wider so he would have to cut up his bus to install that motor . and i see guys with big motors in old buses and the motors cant get enough cool air to cool the motors . and one second he just want to drive it around then the next second he wants to race other cars . lol and how is he going to cool that big motor on hot days with a stock vw fan housing and fan . i think he has the bro. thing look at me my pee pees bigger than your pee pee lol lol i think he would have been better off with a 82 or 84 by 94 motors . my self i built a 90 by 94 motor and i built a 88x 94 motor . for other people to me its just not worth the money .and what kind of gas is he going to use . and how much would he have to shim the cyls to get the CR. down to where he could use pump gas .and shiming the cyls out would make the motor even wider to install in his bus . people should think things out be for they jump into a motor build.that they have never done be for . for every action theres a reaction . just some thing to think about . but some times you must save people from then selfs . i may sound like a jerk for saying the above .but i have been there and done the above . i now will get off of my soap box . and work on my vw . take care ever one and its now time to enjoy summer lol lol just my dan two cents spencerfvee
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2021 1:02 am    Post subject: Re: CAM for 88x94 low rpm motor Reply with quote

Tks
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2021 6:00 am    Post subject: Re: CAM for 88x94 low rpm motor Reply with quote

spencerfvee wrote:
Nando_b63 wrote:
So , any updates..
.................................................................................... my self i think he found out how much money it would take to build a 88x94 motor .and what a pain in the ass to build one . the motor would be wider so he would have to cut up his bus to install that motor . and i see guys with big motors in old buses and the motors cant get enough cool air to cool the motors . and one second he just want to drive it around then the next second he wants to race other cars . lol and how is he going to cool that big motor on hot days with a stock vw fan housing and fan . i think he has the bro. thing look at me my pee pees bigger than your pee pee lol lol i think he would have been better off with a 82 or 84 by 94 motors . my self i built a 90 by 94 motor and i built a 88x 94 motor . for other people to me its just not worth the money .and what kind of gas is he going to use . and how much would he have to shim the cyls to get the CR. down to where he could use pump gas .and shiming the cyls out would make the motor even wider to install in his bus . people should think things out be for they jump into a motor build.that they have never done be for . for every action theres a reaction . just some thing to think about . but some times you must save people from then selfs . i may sound like a jerk for saying the above .but i have been there and done the above . i now will get off of my soap box . and work on my vw . take care ever one and its now time to enjoy summer lol lol just my dan two cents spencerfvee

I think you missed a few points from the OPs plan, C pistons, long rods and big crank can be really close to stock width. Sounds like it was very well thought out.
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2021 10:32 am    Post subject: Re: CAM for 88x94 low rpm motor Reply with quote

Chip B. wrote:
spencerfvee wrote:
Nando_b63 wrote:
So , any updates..
.................................................................................... my self i think he found out how much money it would take to build a 88x94 motor .and what a pain in the ass to build one . the motor would be wider so he would have to cut up his bus to install that motor . and i see guys with big motors in old buses and the motors cant get enough cool air to cool the motors . and one second he just want to drive it around then the next second he wants to race other cars . lol and how is he going to cool that big motor on hot days with a stock vw fan housing and fan . i think he has the bro. thing look at me my pee pees bigger than your pee pee lol lol i think he would have been better off with a 82 or 84 by 94 motors . my self i built a 90 by 94 motor and i built a 88x 94 motor . for other people to me its just not worth the money .and what kind of gas is he going to use . and how much would he have to shim the cyls to get the CR. down to where he could use pump gas .and shiming the cyls out would make the motor even wider to install in his bus . people should think things out be for they jump into a motor build.that they have never done be for . for every action theres a reaction . just some thing to think about . but some times you must save people from then selfs . i may sound like a jerk for saying the above .but i have been there and done the above . i now will get off of my soap box . and work on my vw . take care ever one and its now time to enjoy summer lol lol just my dan two cents spencerfvee

I think you missed a few points from the OPs plan, C pistons, long rods and big crank can be really close to stock width. Sounds like it was very well thought out.
......................................................................................................i would like to see the c pistons .if you have a photo i had to use longer cyls when i built my 88 and 90mm x94 motor thanks spencerfvee
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Chip Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2021 12:39 pm    Post subject: Re: CAM for 88x94 low rpm motor Reply with quote

spencerfvee wrote:
Chip B. wrote:
spencerfvee wrote:
Nando_b63 wrote:
So , any updates..
.................................................................................... my self i think he found out how much money it would take to build a 88x94 motor .and what a pain in the ass to build one . the motor would be wider so he would have to cut up his bus to install that motor . and i see guys with big motors in old buses and the motors cant get enough cool air to cool the motors . and one second he just want to drive it around then the next second he wants to race other cars . lol and how is he going to cool that big motor on hot days with a stock vw fan housing and fan . i think he has the bro. thing look at me my pee pees bigger than your pee pee lol lol i think he would have been better off with a 82 or 84 by 94 motors . my self i built a 90 by 94 motor and i built a 88x 94 motor . for other people to me its just not worth the money .and what kind of gas is he going to use . and how much would he have to shim the cyls to get the CR. down to where he could use pump gas .and shiming the cyls out would make the motor even wider to install in his bus . people should think things out be for they jump into a motor build.that they have never done be for . for every action theres a reaction . just some thing to think about . but some times you must save people from then selfs . i may sound like a jerk for saying the above .but i have been there and done the above . i now will get off of my soap box . and work on my vw . take care ever one and its now time to enjoy summer lol lol just my dan two cents spencerfvee

I think you missed a few points from the OPs plan, C pistons, long rods and big crank can be really close to stock width. Sounds like it was very well thought out.
......................................................................................................i would like to see the c pistons .if you have a photo i had to use longer cyls when i built my 88 and 90mm x94 motor thanks spencerfvee

No photo here, but the description in the link below tells the story. 1.055" pin height.
http://vwparts.aircooled.net/ACN-Super-Squish-Pistons-94mm-Bore-1-055-Pin-Ht-p/super-squish-94c.htm
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2021 3:23 pm    Post subject: Re: CAM for 88x94 low rpm motor Reply with quote

spencerfvee wrote:
...i would like to see the c pistons .if you have a photo i had to use longer cyls when i built my 88 and 90mm x94 motor thanks spencerfvee


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2021 4:57 pm    Post subject: Re: CAM for 88x94 low rpm motor Reply with quote

Whoa! That doesn't look like a fun to install piston!
I can't imagine installing rings after the piston is on the rod.
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2021 4:11 am    Post subject: Re: CAM for 88x94 low rpm motor Reply with quote

sled wrote:
spencerfvee wrote:
...i would like to see the c pistons .if you have a photo i had to use longer cyls when i built my 88 and 90mm x94 motor thanks spencerfvee


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
.....................................thank you for posting the photo of the C piston . i thought thats how it was done . be for you posted the photo of the C piston . spencerfvee
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