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evanfrucht
Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2016
Posts: 2180
Location: Laurel Canyon, CA
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 Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 6:39 pm Post subject: Starter failed? |
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Ok so I have a genuine bosch starter rebuilt professionally a few year back. I have been using it on the test stand to fire up my engine and it was working until now. Currently, I hit the start button and literally nothing happens, no sound or movement of any sort. Checked my switches and wiring with a multimeter and am good on that.
Couple facts:
- Right after the moment when it seemingly failed I touched the starter and it was hot to the touch.
- When I take big screwdriver and short both posts on the bendix drive/solenoid the starter WILL SPIN but it does NOT kick out and engage the flywheel.
Is this easily fixable or is the starter done pretty much? I tried a hammer already...
....of course this would happen in the middle of trying to work out tuning issues... lol 
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1967 Bug ( the daily rod )
1964 Fury Wagon ( the pavement shredder ) |
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AirHead1966
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Joined: October 17, 2019
Posts: 568
Location: Triad Area NC
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| Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 7:14 pm Post subject: Re: Starter failed? |
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| Seems like it bit the dust. Oriellys sells a remanufactured one meant for auto stick that does not need a bushing in bell housing. It is $54 and they have lifetime warranty on those things. I bought one for my test engine stand and it seems solid. Even if it dies, they will give you another under warranty. |
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evanfrucht
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Joined: July 24, 2016
Posts: 2180
Location: Laurel Canyon, CA
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| Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 8:14 pm Post subject: Re: Starter failed? |
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I'll planning to put whatever new one I buy back on my car. Would the cheaper auto trans one work for a 1967 beetle manual trans?
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1967 Bug ( the daily rod )
1964 Fury Wagon ( the pavement shredder ) |
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mukluk
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Joined: October 18, 2012
Posts: 7028
Location: Clyde, TX
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| Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 8:16 pm Post subject: Re: Starter failed? |
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The solenoid's job is twofold: kick the starter gear outward to mesh with the flywheel/flexplate, and to connect two internal heavy duty contacts which sends power to the starter motor so it'll rotate. Since your starter motor will spin when you bridge the two heavy external terminals on the solenoid and the bendix doesn't kick out, we can safely say the solenoid's toast. You can either replace just the solenoid or swap out the entire starter.
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74 Thing
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madmike
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Joined: July 11, 2005
Posts: 5292
Location: Atlanta,Michigan
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| Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 3:48 am Post subject: Re: Starter failed? |
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always check power supply first  battery terminals
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'Black Ice'Drag Buggy 'Turbo'
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76 Drag/Street bug 2180cc 'Turbo' 11:85 @113 mph"If I go any faster I'll burn up the Hamster" ,gets 28 mpg. also 10/09/22 11.90 @115 mph
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AirHead1966
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Joined: October 17, 2019
Posts: 568
Location: Triad Area NC
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| Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 2:12 pm Post subject: Re: Starter failed? |
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| evanfrucht wrote: |
| I'll planning to put whatever new one I buy back on my car. Would the cheaper auto trans one work for a 1967 beetle manual trans? |
To answer that question, yes it will. |
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dirtkeeper
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Joined: February 19, 2008
Posts: 3200
Location: Left of everywhere
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| Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 3:01 pm Post subject: Re: Starter failed? |
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| Have you tried tapping the starter and solenoid while trying to start |
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evanfrucht
Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2016
Posts: 2180
Location: Laurel Canyon, CA
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| Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 3:32 pm Post subject: Re: Starter failed? |
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As an update I got a second bosch remanufactured unit and must have got unlucky because that one failed too. Only lasted half a day, the first one just flat out died. The problem with the newer one is it won't stop cranking even after you turn the switch off. Only way to stop it is pulling off battery ground.
So basically two starters failed back to back. Both the original starters would crank my brand new 9.5CR 2180cc very slowly. They would work but it sounded like it was working very hard.
Therefor I bought a IMI-101N high torque starter. I was only going to get the plain 101 model but I found a local shop who only had this left in stock and gave me a great deal. Plus they are local and open yesterday.
Haven't had time to try it yet but I'm hoping it will crank I faster and at least not die on me like the last two have.
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1967 Bug ( the daily rod )
1964 Fury Wagon ( the pavement shredder )
Last edited by evanfrucht on Sun May 16, 2021 3:41 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Pruneman99
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Location: Oceanside
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| Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 3:38 pm Post subject: Re: Starter failed? |
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I really like the autostick starters. They are a bit bigger than the normal non-self supporting starters. IDK if they have a higher crank power, but it seems to me it does. The other great benefit is you don't have to worry about the stupid bushing in the bellhousing.
Oh, and you can actually test it out of the car without damaging it.
I got one at AutoZone like 10 years ago for around 35-40 bucks. Works a treat. |
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evanfrucht
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Joined: July 24, 2016
Posts: 2180
Location: Laurel Canyon, CA
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| Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 4:45 pm Post subject: Re: Starter failed? |
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| Pruneman99 wrote: |
I really like the autostick starters. They are a bit bigger than the normal non-self supporting starters. IDK if they have a higher crank power, but it seems to me it does. The other great benefit is you don't have to worry about the stupid bushing in the bellhousing.
Oh, and you can actually test it out of the car without damaging it.
I got one at AutoZone like 10 years ago for around 35-40 bucks. Works a treat. |
Ya funny thing, the second one that failed (the one that just keeps cranking on endlessly) will actually work properly on the bench when tested. It only runs on when under load.
Ya I was thinking about trying that one but just bit the bullet and got this IMI one. Its supposedly very powerful and also uses less battery. It is self supporting as well so no bushing either
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67rustavenger 
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Joined: February 24, 2015
Posts: 9770
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| Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 4:54 pm Post subject: Re: Starter failed? |
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If the IMI fails. You better have a good look at how you are using the starters on you test stand.
A few years ago I killed 6 timing lights.  This was based on electrical connection procedures recommended here.
I ran a stand alone battery to power the light. And haven't burned one out since!
Moral of the story is, Check your stuff and make damn sure that you are using it in the safest manner possible.
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Chickensoup
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Joined: January 06, 2018
Posts: 5368
Location: Good Hope, GA
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| Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 4:56 pm Post subject: Re: Starter failed? |
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| Pruneman99 wrote: |
I really like the autostick starters. They are a bit bigger than the normal non-self supporting starters. IDK if they have a higher crank power, but it seems to me it does. The other great benefit is you don't have to worry about the stupid bushing in the bellhousing.
Oh, and you can actually test it out of the car without damaging it.
I got one at AutoZone like 10 years ago for around 35-40 bucks. Works a treat. |
Does this one look like the self supporting starter you have? Ive been tempted to try one out.
https://www.google.com/aclk?sa=l&ai=DChcSEwjrs...amp;adurl=
This is slightly off topic, but how many cranking amps should be running for a 12v stock compression 1600? I have a 800 or 900 and something amp battery. will i burn the starter with that much power?
thanks
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evanfrucht
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Joined: July 24, 2016
Posts: 2180
Location: Laurel Canyon, CA
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| Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 5:01 pm Post subject: Re: Starter failed? |
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The possibily that I screwed up wiring or maybe had a switch fail occered to me, but I've already checked all that and also wire up the failed starters separately on the bench and also with separate direct wiring to it.
Basically it sounds bad, lol. But after a process of elimination I'm sure that the two starters failing was not due to anything I did or the wiring.
Also the clarify stock starters did work fine (when the were functioning) but they just cranked my new higher compression a bit slow for my liking.
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Rome
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Joined: June 02, 2004
Posts: 9653
Location: Pearl River, NY
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| Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 6:03 pm Post subject: Re: Starter failed? |
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| Quote: |
| I really like the autostick starters. They are a bit bigger than the normal non-self supporting starters. IDK if they have a higher crank power |
I do remember a difference, and just confirmed it in my 1971 "Without Guesswork" technical specs booklet: Manual trans: 0.7 hp; auto trans 0.8 hp. The A/T starter also has a slightly different sound when it's cranking. |
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evanfrucht
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Joined: July 24, 2016
Posts: 2180
Location: Laurel Canyon, CA
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| Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 6:26 pm Post subject: Re: Starter failed? |
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This IMI starter has 2HP apparently
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1964 Fury Wagon ( the pavement shredder )
Last edited by evanfrucht on Sun May 16, 2021 9:33 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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AirHead1966
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Joined: October 17, 2019
Posts: 568
Location: Triad Area NC
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| Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 7:39 pm Post subject: Re: Starter failed? |
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| Chickensoup wrote: |
[
Does this one look like the self supporting starter you have? Ive been tempted to try one out.
https://www.google.com/aclk?sa=l&ai=DChcSEwjrs...amp;adurl=
This is slightly off topic, but how many cranking amps should be running for a 12v stock compression 1600? I have a 800 or 900 and something amp battery. will i burn the starter with that much power?
thanks |
That’s the same starter I got from oriellys for about $10 more but with a lifetime warranty and, of course, no shipping.
No matter how many CCAs your battery has, the starter or any other device will only draw what it needs. It I will not burn out. The only time a device will draw more than what it needs is if it is shorted. Think about it it like this, you have 0.25 amps led light bulbs on 15 or 20 am circuits in your home. They don’t burn out. They only draw what they need. |
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Chickensoup
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Joined: January 06, 2018
Posts: 5368
Location: Good Hope, GA
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| Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 7:43 pm Post subject: Re: Starter failed? |
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thanks for the info! so i guess the better question is, how many cranking amps does my starter need?
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-'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" |
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AirHead1966
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Joined: October 17, 2019
Posts: 568
Location: Triad Area NC
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| Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 7:54 pm Post subject: Re: Starter failed? |
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| The solenoid will draw upto 30 amps and the starter motor will draw upto 300 to 350 or so amps under load. |
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Chickensoup
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Joined: January 06, 2018
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Location: Good Hope, GA
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| Posted: Sun May 16, 2021 7:57 pm Post subject: Re: Starter failed? |
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sweet. thanks!
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-'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" |
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