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'74 SB How to test for spark with no help
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rusty_74_bug
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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2021 4:15 pm    Post subject: Re: '74 SB How to test for spark with no help Reply with quote

Cusser wrote:
rusty_74_bug wrote:
This SB came with a pict 30/31 which I know is the incorrect carb for a dual port 74 so I went ahead and swapped it.


I'm happy with the Solex 30/31 on an adapter on my dual port 1600cc engine in my 1970. I run a vintage German 009 distributor with it.


The 30/31 is in bad shape. I'd really like to get the 34 working if possible.


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Pruneman99
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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2021 4:22 pm    Post subject: Re: '74 SB How to test for spark with no help Reply with quote

Sorry about that. Not sure how I missed it.

Anyway, it's a 009 distributor, not the best match for a PICT 34, but I ran that way for years.

Make sure to time the distributor at full advance. Approx 29-30 degrees BTDC @ 3000k rpm.

Make sure the idle cutoff is working. The round thing on the driver's side of the carb. You can turn on the ignition, and unhook the power to it. Then hook it back up. You should hear an audible click. Just don't forget to turn the ignition off after your done.

Do you have a dwell meter? That set-up on my car was a bit sensitive to dwell angle.

Make sure the choke is closed at start-up, and opens fully when hot.
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rusty_74_bug
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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2021 4:37 pm    Post subject: Re: '74 SB How to test for spark with no help Reply with quote

Pruneman99 wrote:
Sorry about that. Not sure how I missed it.

Anyway, it's a 009 distributor, not the best match for a PICT 34, but I ran that way for years.

Make sure to time the distributor at full advance. Approx 29-30 degrees BTDC @ 3000k rpm.

Make sure the idle cutoff is working. The round thing on the driver's side of the carb. You can turn on the ignition, and unhook the power to it. Then hook it back up. You should hear an audible click. Just don't forget to turn the ignition off after your done.

Do you have a dwell meter? That set-up on my car was a bit sensitive to dwell angle.

Make sure the choke is closed at start-up, and opens fully when hot.


No prob. Yeah, I'm aware of the 009/34 issue, I've seen that on plenty of Samba threads Laughing For this Super, I'm on a tight budget so I am gonna be forced to use what I got around here in the garage but MAYBE I might have some extra $$$ to grab a new carb from jbugs or send mine off to Tim at Volkzbitz. I considered what Cusser said about the 30/31 and putting it back on but it looks like it is in really bad shape. I don't have a dwell meter but I'll recheck the timing, I like the static method because seems to be simple and easy for a noob like me. I will check the other things you mentioned tomorrow, I think I'm gonna pack it in for the day...I've been out here in the sun for about 6 hours now. I'll revisit your comment tomorrow. Thanks for all your help!
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68IHscout
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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2021 5:05 pm    Post subject: Re: '74 SB How to test for spark with no help Reply with quote

rusty_74_bug wrote:
Alright alright alright (my best Matthew McConaughey) That was it! I have fuel flow now! Now on to the next problem, it won't idle and dies if I take my foot off the gas pedal. I will tinker with the carb, I have a vague understanding of idle speed. I will start another thread if I run into a problem, although I'm sure I will. Thanks for everyone's help, much appreciated!
check the fuel cut off at the carb ,with key in the on position again remove and install the wire to it if it clicks its working .
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rusty_74_bug
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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2021 5:42 pm    Post subject: Re: '74 SB How to test for spark with no help Reply with quote

68IHscout wrote:
rusty_74_bug wrote:
Alright alright alright (my best Matthew McConaughey) That was it! I have fuel flow now! Now on to the next problem, it won't idle and dies if I take my foot off the gas pedal. I will tinker with the carb, I have a vague understanding of idle speed. I will start another thread if I run into a problem, although I'm sure I will. Thanks for everyone's help, much appreciated!
check the fuel cut off at the carb ,with key in the on position again remove and install the wire to it if it clicks its working .


After I made that last post, I went out and did a couple half turns on the mixture screw. I must be going in the right direction because it is now at least is idling for a minute or 2 before it dies! Before that I couldn't even take my foot off the pedal. I feel like I'm making progress!! 68IHscout, I'll check that tomorrow when I go back out and hit it again. I think I'll treat myself to some booze tonight!
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rusty_74_bug
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2021 12:00 pm    Post subject: Re: '74 SB How to test for spark with no help Reply with quote

It is now idling but only after it seems it warms up a bit. Still wants to die even after idling a couple minutes though. I have checked the idle cutoff by turning on the key and then unplugging and plugging back in. I do hear a click. I do have the muffler off and I'm hearing backfires occasionally. Not sure how to check if the choke is working properly. Just for shits and giggles I put it in reverse (it's an autostick), seems like it took a good 10 seconds to get in gear with a huge jolt and lurch. That's next on the list after the engine is sorted out.
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2021 12:18 pm    Post subject: Re: '74 SB How to test for spark with no help Reply with quote

Cold engine. Move the throttle lever via the pedal or by hand. The choke should close and the throttle lever should rest on one of the higher steps of the fast idle cam. Left side of the carbs top.
Start the engine and let it warm a bit. Blip the throttle, again via the pedal of by hand. The throttle lever should rest on a lower step of the fast idle cam.
Once fully warmed up the throttle lever should come to rest on the lowest section of the fast idle cam.

If it's not doing as described above.
Consult your Bentley service manual and make the proper adjustments.
You do have a service manual, correct?
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2021 12:28 pm    Post subject: Re: '74 SB How to test for spark with no help Reply with quote

67rustavenger wrote:
Cold engine. Move the throttle lever via the pedal or by hand. The choke should close and the throttle lever should rest on one of the higher steps of the fast idle cam. Left side of the carbs top.
Start the engine and let it warm a bit. Blip the throttle, again via the pedal of by hand. The throttle lever should rest on a lower step of the fast idle cam.
Once fully warmed up the throttle lever should come to rest on the lowest section of the fast idle cam.

If it's not doing as described above.
Consult your Bentley service manual and make the proper adjustments.
You do have a service manual, correct?


I have a Bentley. I think there is something wrong with the choke. I don't know what each piece is called but the butterfly mechanism will not fully close even by hand...like there's a spring missing or broke or something (sorry, I don't know how to explain it since my carb knowledge is limited). I mentioned yesterday this carb was from my 74 standard, I now remember why I bought a new carb for that car. I'll look through the Bentley right now.
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2021 1:23 pm    Post subject: Re: '74 SB How to test for spark with no help Reply with quote

The Bi-metal choke heating element could be broken.
Gently grasp the choke wire and see it the ceramic bit the wire attaches to is loosey goosely. They break sometimes.
You can remove the heating element and do a visual examination.

If the above checks out. It may be as simple as adjusting the choke element for correct operation.
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rusty_74_bug
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2021 1:29 pm    Post subject: Re: '74 SB How to test for spark with no help Reply with quote

67rustavenger wrote:
The Bi-metal choke heating element could be broken.
Gently grasp the choke wire and see it the ceramic bit the wire attaches to is loosey goosely. They break sometimes.
You can remove the heating element and do a visual examination.

If the above checks out. It may be as simple as adjusting the choke element for correct operation.


I'll give it a try Shocked
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rusty_74_bug
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2021 1:38 pm    Post subject: Re: '74 SB How to test for spark with no help Reply with quote

67rustavenger wrote:
The Bi-metal choke heating element could be broken.
Gently grasp the choke wire and see it the ceramic bit the wire attaches to is loosey goosely. They break sometimes.
You can remove the heating element and do a visual examination.

If the above checks out. It may be as simple as adjusting the choke element for correct operation.


the ceramic bit moves but just a tiny bit...like maybe 1/16th of an inch. Do I have to take the carb off the engine to pop that choke open? Still not sure what I'm looking for even if I do that. I'm a carb virgin so to speak Laughing
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rusty_74_bug
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2021 1:49 pm    Post subject: Re: '74 SB How to test for spark with no help Reply with quote

rusty_74_bug wrote:
67rustavenger wrote:
The Bi-metal choke heating element could be broken.
Gently grasp the choke wire and see it the ceramic bit the wire attaches to is loosey goosely. They break sometimes.
You can remove the heating element and do a visual examination.

If the above checks out. It may be as simple as adjusting the choke element for correct operation.


the ceramic bit moves but just a tiny bit...like maybe 1/16th of an inch. Do I have to take the carb off the engine to pop that choke open? Still not sure what I'm looking for even if I do that. I'm a carb virgin so to speak Laughing



I just popped open the choke on the 30/31 just in cased I screwed up and that one won't be used again. I think I understand...there's a coiled spring thing in there. Is that the heating element that I'm looking for damage/broken?
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2021 2:11 pm    Post subject: Re: '74 SB How to test for spark with no help Reply with quote

rusty_74_bug wrote:
rusty_74_bug wrote:
67rustavenger wrote:
The Bi-metal choke heating element could be broken.
Gently grasp the choke wire and see it the ceramic bit the wire attaches to is loosey goosely. They break sometimes.
You can remove the heating element and do a visual examination.

If the above checks out. It may be as simple as adjusting the choke element for correct operation.


the ceramic bit moves but just a tiny bit...like maybe 1/16th of an inch. Do I have to take the carb off the engine to pop that choke open? Still not sure what I'm looking for even if I do that. I'm a carb virgin so to speak Laughing



I just popped open the choke on the 30/31 just in cased I screwed up and that one won't be used again. I think I understand...there's a coiled spring thing in there. Is that the heating element that I'm looking for damage/broken?



Ok, so I opened it up and the spring element thing was intact. It did appear to be not touching that lever thing, I put it back on closer to the lever and tightened it back. Seems like a little improvement but still wants to die eventually. It does run for a couple minutes before it starts sputtering and then die.
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2021 3:01 pm    Post subject: Re: '74 SB How to test for spark with no help Reply with quote

Progress.

You adjust the tension on the choke element by loosening the three screws on the perimeter of the choke and twisting the element. It will be obvious once you see how it moves in the housing. If you look really close on the carb body, you will see index marks that will line up with a mark on the choke element.

In my experience, most carb problems are really ignition problems. So once you get the choke set, move to the distributor. Make sure your timing is 29-30 degrees at 3k rpm. But set your dwell angle first, as it will change your timing.
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2021 3:12 pm    Post subject: Re: '74 SB How to test for spark with no help Reply with quote

Pruneman99 wrote:
Progress.

You adjust the tension on the choke element by loosening the three screws on the perimeter of the choke and twisting the element. It will be obvious once you see how it moves in the housing. If you look really close on the carb body, you will see index marks that will line up with a mark on the choke element.

In my experience, most carb problems are really ignition problems. So once you get the choke set, move to the distributor. Make sure your timing is 29-30 degrees at 3k rpm. But set your dwell angle first, as it will change your timing.



Yes progress! I am happy that I'm going forward instead of backwards! Laughing
I do not have dwell meter so I'm stuck doing the static timing method although I think I got the timing right. Once it started idling without me having to give it gas, I loosened the distributor and turned it both directions. Pretty much either way made it want to die...I think I do have it in the right position. It basically idles, then the RPMs drop, it struggles a few seconds, then the RPMS come back up. I have a 30 second video of it doing exactly this...Samba doesn't allow video uploads??
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2021 3:22 pm    Post subject: Re: '74 SB How to test for spark with no help Reply with quote

You have to link to YouTube I think.

But the dwell angle is independent of timing, but changing the dwell angle will change the timing. You can use a matchbook cover to get it close, but you really need to use a dwell meter to get it right.

There is a way to manually measure the dwell angle with a test light and a degree wheel to chart the point events. A meter is much much easier.

You can get a multimeter at harbor freight that has a dwell function pretty cheap. Most multimeters sold now don't have the dwell function.

Having a VW kinda requires a dwell meter IMO. If it's incorrect, it can definitely cause poor running.
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2021 3:31 pm    Post subject: Re: '74 SB How to test for spark with no help Reply with quote

Pruneman99 wrote:
You have to link to YouTube I think.

But the dwell angle is independent of timing, but changing the dwell angle will change the timing. You can use a matchbook cover to get it close, but you really need to use a dwell meter to get it right.

There is a way to manually measure the dwell angle with a test light and a degree wheel to chart the point events. A meter is much much easier.

You can get a multimeter at harbor freight that has a dwell function pretty cheap. Most multimeters sold now don't have the dwell function.

Having a VW kinda requires a dwell meter IMO. If it's incorrect, it can definitely cause poor running.


Ok. I'll ask my neighbor if he has a dwell meter, I think he does but he's not home right now. I think I'm gonna stop on the engine for the day.
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2021 4:24 pm    Post subject: Re: '74 SB How to test for spark with no help Reply with quote

Pruneman99 wrote:

Having a VW kinda requires a dwell meter IMO. If it's incorrect, it can definitely cause poor running.

Dwell meter, swell meter! Laughing

But then my shit's not stock! Very Happy
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

See ya at the 36th Annual Bug Run, June 5th 2021.
You can find me in the Drag Race staging lanes! Cool
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I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!

There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo!
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2021 4:45 pm    Post subject: Re: '74 SB How to test for spark with no help Reply with quote

67rustavenger wrote:
Pruneman99 wrote:

Having a VW kinda requires a dwell meter IMO. If it's incorrect, it can definitely cause poor running.

Dwell meter, swell meter! Laughing

But then my shit's not stock! Very Happy
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

See ya at the 36th Annual Bug Run, June 5th 2021.
You can find me in the Drag Race staging lanes! Cool


wow Shocked
I've been wanting to go to Woodburn but I doubt either of my Bugs would even make it there Laughing
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2021 4:56 pm    Post subject: Re: '74 SB How to test for spark with no help Reply with quote

That's spaceship tech compared to points! A dwell meter wouldn't do ya much good with that set-up. Sweet car!
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