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MarcVoss
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Joined: July 21, 2019
Posts: 67
Location: DE, Munich
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 Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2021 1:33 pm Post subject: Re: Post Your Type 4 Here |
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After replacing the rear springs, the car looks quiet "normal" again:
Additional I replaced the dampers and all brakes.
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Best Regards from Germany, the origin country of Volkswagen.
Marc |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21507
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2021 2:20 pm Post subject: Re: Post Your Type 4 Here |
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Interesting!
Looks nice!
A question or two:
1. Where did you get the springs?
2. It does not quite look normal. Very good!.....but not "normal".
Either you have lowered the front end slightly....like what you might get by using the Audi strut mod......or its higher than normal in the rear end.
These cars came from the factory at about 19-21mm higher in the front end. While being nose high is "normal" .....I consider it a design flaw.
Its fairly obvious when you look at the construction/and design....that the factory was shooting for haging enough load control in the front end to deal with that huge trunk being full.....but it would have made for a more complex spring, stop and strut design to make it work perfectly either loaded or unloaded.
I would bet that once it gets br9ken in you will see a little lowering in the rear.
Still.....very nice!
EDIT......
The other important thing to check that will leave the rear end up higher than it should be.....and it wi only be higher for a short number of miles before it rectifies itself.... y damaging the trailing wishbone bushings......IS
......if you had the car with its wheela OFF THE GROUND.....when you tightened the two pivot point bolts on each wishbone.....that LOCKS the steel bushing tube in the center of the bonded rubber bushing.....in a position that is unnaturally extended downward. So when you lower the car....it winds the rubber up putting a huge amount of torque on it.
Not far off it shears the rubber loose....the bushing slips sideways....and your rear toe in is now off.
So.....lower the car all the way to the ground....slide underneath but stay out of contact....or do this on a ramp over a pit.....but crack the two bolts open on each side. The car will drop slightly. Tigjten back up and mind your toe in adjuster cam bolts.
Alternately.....if you can get both rear wheels off the ground on ramps...with the full weight of the car on the ramps.....you csn do this safer.
Ray |
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MarcVoss
Samba Member
Joined: July 21, 2019
Posts: 67
Location: DE, Munich
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| Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 12:23 am Post subject: Re: Post Your Type 4 Here |
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It was a second batch (the first one 25 years ago) of reproduction.
A smart guy from the netherlands did it and he had the experiance.
Yes, of course, they will rectifies in time, but hopefully not as much as before.
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Best Regards from Germany, the origin country of Volkswagen.
Marc |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21507
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:33 am Post subject: Re: Post Your Type 4 Here |
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| MarcVoss wrote: |
It was a second batch (the first one 25 years ago) of reproduction.
A smart guy from the netherlands did it and he had the experiance.
Yes, of course, they will rectifies in time, but hopefully not as much as before. |
I can say looking at your pictures.....that whoever did the springs did a VERY good job.
These springs are progressive and have several calibration points. You can see this in the coil diameter change and in the coil spacing change. It looks like those were mapped very well.
I don't remember how much sag your rear springs had.....but for the most part.....it was not a large rear sag problem with these cars.....at least on the later or US models....which could be key as there are several coil designs through the tears with different wire diameters, spacing and number of coils.
The "actual" spring sag in the rear versus....."percieved" sag.......was pretty small.
It is the excessive front strut LIFT that makes the rear sag seem larger than it really is.
The problem is a combination of strange geometry and optical illusion.
If the car had started out dead level from the factory........in reality if the rear end started to sag a half inch.....it sags a half inch. That by itself....with no other changes or to the car.....would be very hard to visually see.
The trailing wishbone and the car chassis....viewed when sitting still.... form a right triangle. It is key to understand this.
But......the spring is out at the very rear of the trailing wishbone. So is the shock mount. And both are a LONG way from the pivot point of the wishbone. Any change at these two parts.....loss of shock action or sagging of springs....changes the angle of the triangle.
Even more important.....the very rear of the car....the bumper....is quite a ways from the pivot point of the trailing wishbone.
Like any other triangle......the longer the total base leg or even the hypoteneuse of a triangle.....the more distance of movement just a few degrees of arc will make to either line when measured from the vertex. So yes.....a sagging spring makes SOME visual chassis drop. But when this happens......the triangle is gettiny more narrow....and the percieved change is actually fairly small....but it is there.
But......because of where the chassis actually pivots.....it pivots around the rear axle.......if the front end is lifted.......this forms another triangle......one whose base leg and/or hypotenuse.....is the whole length of the car!
What the eye sees......is that the chassis pivots around the rear axle.....and the part of the car behind the rear wheel all the way to the tip of the bumper......is driven downward......not just in actual distance.....but in visual ANGLE.
AND......AND.....  .....lets remember out geometry!....."opposite angles are congruent".....if you REALLY are getting excessive or significant sag in the rear springs and shocks......that will drive the already too high front end.....visually higher!
Its primarily an angle problem!
BUT.....if I had to say which angle problem was worse.....the most responsible......I would say its the front end.
A lot of people through the years will acquire a 411 or 412 that looks way out of whack. They immediately start looking around for rear springs....because it LOOKS like a rear sagging issue.
I am all for getting new rear springs.....if you can get REAL....CORRECT.... rear springs....which are quite rare. Never seen them available in my life. If you cannot get the correct spring.....this is not the car to experiment with. The entire weight or the drive line is on them. There is a lot of built in calibration. Because of the geometry and weight distribution.....the rear trailing wishbones can end up DRIVING AND BRAKING THE CAR.
I tell people first.....to set the tire pressures correct .....then to put some weight in the trunk as an experiemnt.....until the fromt end as measured right at the chassis lower drip rail edge just rearward of the front wheel......is right at 0.75" higher than the rear end.
Now look at the car....and even measure the distance change from the pavement at the rear bumper....caused by chassis rotation pivoting around the rear axle. If it now looks more correct.......then the vast majority of the problem is the front struts.
Ray |
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MarcVoss
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Joined: July 21, 2019
Posts: 67
Location: DE, Munich
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| Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 7:09 am Post subject: Re: Post Your Type 4 Here |
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In addition to new springs, new shocks, new windshield, new brakes, the car got a refurbished engine and a pretty good gearbox without any noise during switching.
Now the car is running like a new one - what I wanted during the last 2 years has become true.
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Best Regards from Germany, the origin country of Volkswagen.
Marc |
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MarcVoss
Samba Member
Joined: July 21, 2019
Posts: 67
Location: DE, Munich
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| Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2021 1:10 pm Post subject: Re: Post Your Type 4 Here |
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Some weeks ago, I got the chance to join a photo shooting. The reason was a report in the german newsletter Classic Cars where VW was compared to BMW.
Beside I could take some additional pictures:
At the old Airport Oberschleißheim:
Comparision of the back
Typ 4 as it is known by most of us, but the BMW is worth to take more pictures:
How a 2000 looks originally:
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Best Regards from Germany, the origin country of Volkswagen.
Marc |
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kooldub
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Joined: May 21, 2004
Posts: 259
Location: ColoRADo
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| Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:16 am Post subject: Re: Post Your Type 4 Here |
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just picked up a pretty clean, original and complete 1972 411...
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64 Notchback
68 Fastaru
68 Camper
70 Squareback
73 Thing |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21507
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:36 pm Post subject: Re: Post Your Type 4 Here |
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Nice!
Ray |
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Bugace
Samba Member
Joined: November 20, 2006
Posts: 3
Location: Sandnes, Norway
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 7:30 am Post subject: Re: Post Your Type 4 Here |
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My '74 412. Bought last summer. All rust free, but brake, and electric issues got it stuck at the garage. Now looking for batteri, to fit stock position.
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mfferre
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Joined: October 12, 2010
Posts: 1
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2022 8:59 am Post subject: Re: Post Your Type 4 Here |
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sallittjob
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Joined: September 16, 2010
Posts: 340
Location: North NJ
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| Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2022 1:29 pm Post subject: Re: Post Your Type 4 Here |
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Afternoon Everyone,
After a decade or so of casually looking at classifieds for a 411/412, I finally landed a deal on one. 68K original miles, 4 Door Sedan with a 003 Auto. What a luxurious beast this thing is!
I started going through the engine over the past few days. It runs well, but I need to replace all of the fuel line before taking it on the road. Other than that, the gas heater isn't working at the moment (the small booster fan isn't turning on), and the brake pedal isn't fully returning up from what appears to be corrosion from a previous MC failure. I plan on taking the pedal pivot apart and cleaning it up to see if that does the trick. Front end is super tight and responsive!
I sure I'll ask a ton of questions in the forum so thanks in advance!
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57' Beetle Deluxe
1192cc SP
71' Super Beetle
1968cc DP
73' 412 Sedan
1679cc FI
75' Westy
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21507
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2022 2:34 pm Post subject: Re: Post Your Type 4 Here |
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Welcome to the dark (but happy)....side of acvw's!
Nice car!
Ray |
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MarcVoss
Samba Member
Joined: July 21, 2019
Posts: 67
Location: DE, Munich
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| Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2024 3:44 am Post subject: Re: Post Your Type 4 Here |
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Springtime in Germany!
Tires have been changed from 165 to 195/65.
With also a changed toe-in, initially only up to the tolerance limit.
Possibly it will have to be readjusted again.
_________________
Best Regards from Germany, the origin country of Volkswagen.
Marc |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21507
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2024 6:48 am Post subject: Re: Post Your Type 4 Here |
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| MarcVoss wrote: |
Springtime in Germany!
Tires have been changed from 165 to 195/65.
With also a changed toe-in, initially only up to the tolerance limit.
Possibly it will have to be readjusted again. |
Very nice!
From my experience, the 195/65 should be spot on for this car. I ran 205/65-15 for a number of years on my 412 on 5.5 x 15" rims
and put a LOT of miles on them. In fact I went through 3-sets in a little less than 3 years (over 1000 miles per week) of Continental sport CH-90 contacts with a very sticky tread. Wonderful tire for this car but in the late 90's and early 2000's it had not a long tread life.
This was shortly before I had worked out the now simple to me method of adding some castor to the front end of the 411-412.
As you found out....as the tire gets wider...you require more toe-in to offset the extra frontal friction and wheel spreading effect that happens while driving.
This also can make the steering a little odd returning to center while driving at medium to highway speeds because you lose a little castor as well from this spreading effect.
While the handling of a low sidewall , wide tread tire on a 411/412 with a level "rake" like yours and mine....is EXCELLENT, especially with all the mods in. I had low pressure gas struts, bronze idler bushing, new ball joints and tie rod ends, gas shocks in the read and level front to back rake. Superb handling really and not just "for an acvw".
But...as I found somewhere in the middle of those 3 sets of CH-90's...the second set was a set of 205/55-15's (all I could get of that tire at the time)....the 205-55 was too much loss of sidewall springiness and the ride and bump control was too hard. It was hard on the ball joints as well.
My very last set was a compromise....195/95-15. They were superb. The handling was so good that I could not really tell except on extreme cornering at speed...that they were 10mm narrower and 5mm higher in sidewall ratio.
Also ,12 years of 195-65 on my Golf and four years of the same tire on my Jetta amd for thesimilar car size and wheel base that is the tire size to have on the 411/412 a well. Ray
Many years |
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