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bwaii Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2021 Posts: 23 Location: Brazil
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Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 9:31 am Post subject: Excess valve adjuster wear |
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I drive my VW every week on dirt back roads and I have a problem with my adjusters. They are wearing off which means it's impossible to adjust. It happens within a couple of hundred miles. I bought new screws, lowered compression, went back to factory cam (which I regret, it was very mild but gave a noticable boost to low end torque), valve job, bought reworked rockers (stock), replaced the oil pump with a new one with slightly higher output, and cleared the blocked oil passages in the rockers and cut a little groove between the holes.
The problem persists.
I have also changed the case, crank, piston/jugs, bearings, wrist pins, and switched to the off-set cooler - but not to stop adjuster wear. As I thought about this list yesterday I realized that I've changed just about everything except the accessories, heads . . . and ME.
Could I be driving too slow? These are rocky, holey roads so I often putt along at 1700 RPM and 40 kph or 25mph. It isn't loaded or lugging and if I accelerate or hit a hill I down-shift. I've got the lower geared diff and it's a sand rail so it's light (the engine is from this beetle age group which is why I posted here).
So what do you think? |
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Max Welton Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2003 Posts: 10697 Location: Black Forest, CO
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Starbucket Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2007 Posts: 4025 Location: WA
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Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 12:12 pm Post subject: Re: Excess valve adjuster wear |
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You are missing the lower cyl tin and defusers that go between the cyl.s I would bet. Did you replace the pushrods with chroamalloy ones? If you reused the old pushrods did you clean them out? that's how the oil gets to the rockers. What about the oil relief spring and piston is it free in the bore? if the spring is weak your oil is just being dumped back to the sump. |
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sjbartnik Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2011 Posts: 5998 Location: Brooklyn
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Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 3:15 pm Post subject: Re: Excess valve adjuster wear |
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What adjuster screws are you buying? Some of the stuff available is of very poor quality and not hard enough to maintain shape for long. _________________ 1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650 |
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bwaii Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2021 Posts: 23 Location: Brazil
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Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 3:45 pm Post subject: Re: Excess valve adjuster wear |
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With the new pump and tight engine oil pressure is good. I have an oil temperature gauge and oil now runs around 90 C. I cleaned and tested the stock pushrod tubes. Some of the screws were stock, others weren't. VW still sells some original parts here. I ought to see if I can find these screws. All the major tins are in place. It does have a filter, but it's just one of those old by-pass filters my dad bought long ago. I'ts mostly just decoration.
Did I miss any questions?
Last edited by bwaii on Mon May 17, 2021 4:21 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Starbucket Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2007 Posts: 4025 Location: WA
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Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 4:00 pm Post subject: Re: Excess valve adjuster wear |
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When you remove the valve covers does everything looked oiled? Try retorquing the head nuts and make sure you don't have a broken spring between the rockers. |
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bwaii Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2021 Posts: 23 Location: Brazil
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Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 4:26 pm Post subject: Re: Excess valve adjuster wear |
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After clearing the rocker passages, now everything looks oiled. I even ran it with the covers off to see. Very messy. I've checked head torque twice. Once the bottoms were loose, the second time I found 2 that won't pull up tight. I may swap them out for the "Christmas tree" studs |
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Starbucket Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2007 Posts: 4025 Location: WA
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Posted: Mon May 17, 2021 4:55 pm Post subject: Re: Excess valve adjuster wear |
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That's the problem bad studs hopefully the case threads are ok. Replace all the studs. |
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MuzzcoVW Samba Member
Joined: February 21, 2018 Posts: 1474 Location: Westfield, MA.
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Posted: Tue May 18, 2021 3:19 am Post subject: Re: Excess valve adjuster wear |
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Starbucket wrote: |
That's the problem bad studs hopefully the case threads are ok. Replace all the studs. |
It's never the studs that go bad... case issue. To the O.P., I'm assuming these 10mm studs? What are the first two letters on your case under the alternator stand? |
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bwaii Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2021 Posts: 23 Location: Brazil
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Posted: Wed May 19, 2021 4:11 am Post subject: Re: Excess valve adjuster wear |
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Yes, they're the 10mm studs and they just pull straight out. We have a stud available with an over sized tapered thread (Christmas tree) that work fairly well.
This case is probably Brazilian and the letters are BF |
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ashman40 Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007 Posts: 15985 Location: North Florida, USA
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Posted: Thu May 20, 2021 2:10 pm Post subject: Re: Excess valve adjuster wear |
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Would you mind posting a pic of your worn valve adjusters?
You never mentioned where you have adjusted your valve lash? The manual recommended 0.006" but the earlier engines run 0.004". It really depends how faithfully you adjust the valves on each oil change. If you skip the adjustments, then 0.006" is what you should use. If you adjust the valves on each oil change and monitor when a change is needed you can go tighter at 0.004"... or split the difference at 0.005".
Last time you adjusted your valve lash, what was it on those valve adjusters that were not worn out? _________________ AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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bwaii Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2021 Posts: 23 Location: Brazil
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Posted: Thu May 20, 2021 3:30 pm Post subject: Re: Excess valve adjuster wear |
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Oh, man. I just ground them. 7 were in varying degrees of self destruction and one is in perfect shape. THe whole color of the good one was different which gives credence to the bad adjuster theory. I put them in a drill and rounded them on the grinder for emergency use. I'm toying with the idea of trying to heat treat them. Valve ends seem fine.
I used to run 6 and 8 (I and E) on the gap and then closed it up a bit. Tried 4 and then 5. I set at 6 yesterday, but I know i'll have to re-do it very soon. Who knows what the gap was at last time as the end was mashed so any movement gave a radically different gap. THe way they wear I could probably go 0 . They've never been clattery, but with little to no exhaust maybe I just can't hear it.
I bought some of the EMPI ball adjusters. Don't see how it could be worse. But I'm carrying the old ones for an emergency. |
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MrGoodtunes Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2012 Posts: 852 Location: South Florida
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Posted: Sat May 22, 2021 1:46 pm Post subject: Re: Excess valve adjuster wear |
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bwaii wrote: |
... I just ground them ... I'm toying with the idea of trying to heat treat them ... |
My experience has convinced me that once they get mushroom'd or even slightly flatten'd in just one spot, they are no longer useable. It's probably because their case hardening gave out, and the softer metal under will get mash'd quickly. If you know how hot they have to be heated in order to re-case-harden, and what quench (oil?) works, then that may be your only choice other than finding good original German (Brazilian?) or NOS parts. Wait, have you consider'd Elephant Feet?
https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/1518.htm |
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Max Welton Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2003 Posts: 10697 Location: Black Forest, CO
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Posted: Sun May 23, 2021 9:32 am Post subject: Re: Excess valve adjuster wear |
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MrGoodtunes wrote: |
bwaii wrote: |
... I just ground them ... I'm toying with the idea of trying to heat treat them ... |
My experience has convinced me that once they get mushroom'd or even slightly flatten'd in just one spot, they are no longer useable. |
Back in the day, these were simply replaced when no longer serviceable. Like valve cover gaskets or any other consumable.
Max _________________ 1967 Type-3 Fastback
Under the Knife https://shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=151582
Home Stretch https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=767836 |
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ashman40 Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007 Posts: 15985 Location: North Florida, USA
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Posted: Sun May 23, 2021 2:52 pm Post subject: Re: Excess valve adjuster wear |
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MrGoodtunes wrote: |
bwaii wrote: |
... I just ground them ... I'm toying with the idea of trying to heat treat them ... |
My experience has convinced me that once they get mushroom'd or even slightly flatten'd in just one spot, they are no longer useable. It's probably because their case hardening gave out, and the softer metal under will get mash'd quickly. |
^^^ This!
bwaii wrote: |
Oh, man. I just ground them. 7 were in varying degrees of self destruction and one is in perfect shape. THe whole color of the good one was different which gives credence to the bad adjuster theory. I put them in a drill and rounded them on the grinder for emergency use. I'm toying with the idea of trying to heat treat them. Valve ends seem fine. |
Did you grind the adjusters previously without hardening them? Whether they were stock or cheap aftermarket, if you ground the valve end of the adjuster and installed them without doing something to harden the ground areas... I fully expect they would mushroom. The adjusters are pounded against the ends of the valves. Since the ends of the valves look fine it seems clear the adjuster ends are a softer metal, from grinding away the hardened surface.
bwaii wrote: |
I used to run 6 and 8 (I and E) on the gap and then closed it up a bit. Tried 4 and then 5. I set at 6 yesterday, but I know i'll have to re-do it very soon. Who knows what the gap was at last time as the end was mashed so any movement gave a radically different gap. |
Are you running hydraulic lifters or chrome moly pushrods? Both are run with zero lash. Running them with lash could damage the adjuster ends as well.
Why are you running different valve lash between intake and exhaust? That is not the recommended stock adjustments. Wondering why you feel 0.008" will work? Opening up the valve lash much more than designed is asking for the valve stem or adjusters getting beat up more.
bwaii wrote: |
I bought some of the EMPI ball adjusters. Don't see how it could be worse. But I'm carrying the old ones for an emergency. |
Just remember you may need to grind off part of the underside of the rocker arm where the adjuster threads into. The allows more room for ball part of the adjuster. _________________ AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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bwaii Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2021 Posts: 23 Location: Brazil
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Posted: Fri May 28, 2021 3:58 pm Post subject: Re: Excess valve adjuster wear |
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On many cars the E has more gap and I seem to remember reading that spec online. I abandoned it and run 6 or less. I think I'll especially keep it close with the ball adjusters. Wanted the ones with feet but aren't available here even online. The buggers are a bit of a pain to install. One really drove me nuts until I realized the flat was turned inside. I couldn't get a gap!
I have twice replaced all 8 screws. The problem is getting a good brand. The store pulled out a box of mixed, unlabeled screws and I picked what looked like the best made. One was different and lasted. The store is in another town and I don't get there often.
When I ground them I didn't really think about them being case hardened. For now they are just for an emergency to get home if a ball comes out.
Nothing fancy here. Stock (new) followers and p rods.
Of course, none of this matters if I can't get 3rd gear fixed. But that, as they say, is another thread . . . |
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