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MrPulldown
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 3:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Transmission cooler question Reply with quote

OB Bus wrote:
dsb0328 wrote:
Abscate wrote:
I reached steady state on a 15 minute hill pull, towing a 3600 pound Volvo , of240F documented here

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...ure+towing

The oil manufacturers rate their oils up to 290F, but obviously that is interval dependent for service life. I did go 50k on my last ATF Pentosin load , that’s a nice , buttery smooth shift even at 0F


Wow! Every mechanic I talked to said that anything over 230-240 is a bad thing for transmission fluid. (I'm not very knowledgable about transmission stuff, that's why I come here.)

My original setup was running around 225-245 while not towing and not too many big hills either. That's about an hour or so driving around town. When they replaced the old cooler with the new one, they said the oil was really thick and dark. I'm not sure what it's supposed to look like, but that didn't sound particularly good to me.

To the OP, I agree that based on conversations with a number of transmission shops, 240 is max on temps if you want your transmission to survive.
Mr. Abscate is a very helpful and knowledgeable member on his forums. He is also an ardent defender of the stock EV transmission. His temp recordings while towing in upstate New York or Vermont may not reflect reality west of the Mississippi. Try climbing towards Cedar Breaks, Utah in August, when it’s 95° outside, on a 14% grade for 18 miles, starting at 7000 feet elevation with the GoWesty trans cooler. We got up to 240 very quickly and no amount of gearing down or slowing would get it to go down. That was with a full load but *without* towing anything. We broke off the climb early.
To me there is no downside to having a good cooler. Heat kills. Rebuilt transmissions seem to be running between $4500 and $7000, in some cases plus labor.
Just my opinion. YMMV.


One thing to note is that Mr. A's data is from a MV and not a camper. The camper carry ~1000 lbs worth of built in camper gear + the fact that it is a long wheel base vs short, ++ it is easily overloaded due to the reduced load capacity and the nature of packing for extended trips.

These things are basically Jetta drivetrains hauling around van weight and aero.
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2021 3:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Transmission cooler question Reply with quote

One last thought (ha ha, I'll probably blab about this more given the opportunity). Did your mechanic bypass or delete the OE cooler. If he put the new cooler before the OE one, the engine coolant might be heating up the air cooled ATF.
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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2021 8:29 am    Post subject: Re: Transmission cooler question Reply with quote

MrPulldown wrote:
One last thought (ha ha, I'll probably blab about this more given the opportunity). Did your mechanic bypass or delete the OE cooler. If he put the new cooler before the OE one, the engine coolant might be heating up the air cooled ATF.


I'm 99% sure he removed the old cooler and put the new one in place of it. But I'll double check that.

As for the GoWesty cooler you sent a pic of, I'll check the fittings to see if it will work. I assume it is 23" long? And that dent won't cause any kind of restriction? I assume the dented section would be on the bottom, the way it looks like the inlet and outlet are located, and be nearest the outlet.
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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2021 10:27 am    Post subject: Re: Transmission cooler question Reply with quote

dsb0328 wrote:
MrPulldown wrote:
One last thought (ha ha, I'll probably blab about this more given the opportunity). Did your mechanic bypass or delete the OE cooler. If he put the new cooler before the OE one, the engine coolant might be heating up the air cooled ATF.


I'm 99% sure he removed the old cooler and put the new one in place of it. But I'll double check that.

As for the GoWesty cooler you sent a pic of, I'll check the fittings to see if it will work. I assume it is 23" long? And that dent won't cause any kind of restriction? I assume the dented section would be on the bottom, the way it looks like the inlet and outlet are located, and be nearest the outlet.


Body is 23". 24 to the end of the piping. The dent doesn't touch the fluid passage. The whole thing is slightly bent.

What is your zip. Shipping will probably be around $20.
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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2021 11:03 am    Post subject: Re: Transmission cooler question Reply with quote

MrPulldown wrote:
dsb0328 wrote:
MrPulldown wrote:
One last thought (ha ha, I'll probably blab about this more given the opportunity). Did your mechanic bypass or delete the OE cooler. If he put the new cooler before the OE one, the engine coolant might be heating up the air cooled ATF.


I'm 99% sure he removed the old cooler and put the new one in place of it. But I'll double check that.

As for the GoWesty cooler you sent a pic of, I'll check the fittings to see if it will work. I assume it is 23" long? And that dent won't cause any kind of restriction? I assume the dented section would be on the bottom, the way it looks like the inlet and outlet are located, and be nearest the outlet.


Body is 23". 24 to the end of the piping. The dent doesn't touch the fluid passage. The whole thing is slightly bent.

What is your zip. Shipping will probably be around $20.


My zip is 63119.
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 5:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Transmission cooler question Reply with quote

Abscate wrote:


The only ones who think these are a good idea are those selling them.


I appreciate Abscate's wisdom and help in general but I have to say that this does not seem to be the consensus. One may disagree as to whether it's a good idea, but many recommend it. I think that if we did a poll, most have them.

A few do not favor the aftermarket cooler approach and there are potential drawbacks. A good alternative suggestion to manually shift instead of auto when the tranny is under duress and that this eliminates a source of overheating on long climbs.

I specifically asked when I bought my 2002 MV if it had an added cooler and it did. The tranny shop in Seattle that had rebuilt the original installed it. For Seattle, I imagine.

I still experienced overheating and repeated limp mode behavior in the hot Southwest which was scary. i later found that if was running at 250 on the freeway in flat Houston, which was the only time I got a temp reading (just installed scangauge) with the old cooler. That's hard on the fluid. It was a tiny thing smaller than yours by appearance. I swapped in a bigger one (the typical recommended) and instantly had low tranny temps. It runs at or below 190 most all the time. Rarely breaks that. I have no thermostat control and as a summer camper don't see the need.

The biggest drawback I have seen is that the full size cooler blocks more airflow to the radiator and the engine runs 10 degrees hotter.
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 5:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Transmission cooler question Reply with quote

OB Bus wrote:
....temp recordings while towing in upstate New York or Vermont may not reflect reality west of the Mississippi. Try climbing towards Cedar Breaks, Utah in August, when it’s 95° outside, on a 14% grade for 18 miles, starting at 7000 feet elevation with the GoWesty trans cooler. We got up to 240 very quickly and no amount of gearing down or slowing would get it to go down. That was with a full load but *without* towing anything. We broke off the climb early.
To me there is no downside to having a good cooler. Heat kills..


Couple things:
I saw some document out there that synthetics can probably handle up to around 300F. For a while. The deal is, the hotter tranny fluid gets the quicker it goes bad. If you let your tranny run at 250+ it probably won't have problems but will need more frequent fluid changes. If you run it at <220F it will probably last a lifetime. But change it anyway...

I go through climbs in the mojave and elsewhere hotter than above at times and my tranny does not get above 210. I attribute that to having no thermostatic bypass which must affect flow.

The downside is that my engine runs hotter. Not thrilled about that. While tranny is at 200 in the heaviest heat climbs, the engine is 210-220. Even 225 at times. It seems that the VR6 can handle that, runs hot anyway, but I'm interested in cooling relief mods. Another thread!
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 6:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Transmission cooler question Reply with quote

More thoughts:

Since my cooler had no bypass, I left it that way to see how much trouble I saw.

Zero problem with cold tranny so far. No, it does NOT warm up like it should and I understand that is the beauty of a coolant driven tranny cooler.

I have looked hard for info on running a tranny cold and have not found any data other than "you gotta warm it up" declarations to back up the need for using it close to full temp, but obviously that depends on how cold it is when and where you use it. And if you see issues!

I'm a warm climate traveler. I live in Mexico in the Winter and park the van then. Have not seen any issues for running it closer to 100 f at times, but am alert to seeing what happens and aware that I'm perhaps asking for trouble. I did have real observable overheating issues even with a small cooler that affected my use of the vehicle and made my wallet instantly nervous!

Finally on the install - you certainly can swap in the larger cooler just by plumbing it in to the same hoses. Put in little pads to keep it from damaging or being damaged. I used some snips off a yoga pad. Mine fits by pressure below and then a zip tie or two to the power steering cooler.

Thermal bypass installation is another issue either way.

The big thing to watch out for are leaks - at the clamps especially. Look for info on that, try to get OEM or recommended hose clamps. There is an article somewhere (Rialta info?) and the guy at Colorado Camper vans has had to sort this out after some fluid disasters. So be aware of that with a fresh cooler install.
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 7:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Transmission cooler question Reply with quote

swsl wrote:
More thoughts:

Since my cooler had no bypass, I left it that way to see how much trouble I saw.

Zero problem with cold tranny so far. No, it does NOT warm up like it should and I understand that is the beauty of a coolant driven tranny cooler.

I have looked hard for info on running a tranny cold and have not found any data other than "you gotta warm it up" declarations to back up the need for using it close to full temp, but obviously that depends on how cold it is when and where you use it. And if you see issues!

I'm a warm climate traveler. I live in Mexico in the Winter and park the van then. Have not seen any issues for running it closer to 100 f at times, but am alert to seeing what happens and aware that I'm perhaps asking for trouble. I did have real observable overheating issues even with a small cooler that affected my use of the vehicle and made my wallet instantly nervous!

Finally on the install - you certainly can swap in the larger cooler just by plumbing it in to the same hoses. Put in little pads to keep it from damaging or being damaged. I used some snips off a yoga pad. Mine fits by pressure below and then a zip tie or two to the power steering cooler.

Thermal bypass installation is another issue either way.

The big thing to watch out for are leaks - at the clamps especially. Look for info on that, try to get OEM or recommended hose clamps. There is an article somewhere (Rialta info?) and the guy at Colorado Camper vans has had to sort this out after some fluid disasters. So be aware of that with a fresh cooler install.


Thanks for all the info, swsl. I really appreciate it! So far, no leaks on anything, and may try a bigger cooler at some point. Mine is definitely narrower than the suggested coolers, but also taller. I would think it would do a fine job, but maybe not.
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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2021 3:39 am    Post subject: Re: Transmission cooler question Reply with quote

I see the added coolers as a lot of work and added failure points for incrementally small benefit. Just saying “ cooler is better” isn’t a measurable since you are still replacing the ATF and filter, so it’s a feel good.

245 F is fine for synthetic ATF on the VW recommended 30k ATF change interval, if you are extreme heat/ mountains/ towing one would half that to 15k

One benefit would be if you could increase that interval , based on data from Blackstone, but I’ve never seen anyone report that data.

The data set here is self-validating , of course. Reading here one would thing every T4 transmission fails at 100k one week after purchase.
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2021 11:04 am    Post subject: Re: Transmission cooler question Reply with quote

dsb0328 wrote:


My zip is 63119.


Kind of forgot about this. If you want this cooler send me a PM or email me, at my screen name @ gmail.
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2021 12:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Transmission cooler question Reply with quote

dsb0328 wrote:
Whridlsoncestood wrote:
I’m doing a 5 hour drive to Maine next weekend. Just put scangauge in to watch temps. No cooler added. Transmission filter and fluid change done this weekend. First time since I’ve owned it.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Good luck. I hope it goes well for you. I look forward to your experience.

On a side note, did you get your Scangauge from the factory or a store? I heard those big screen radios can wreak havoc with the Scangauge if it's not programmed correctly. The woman at the factory told me that when I called to ask some questions about mine. I only have a regular aftermarket stereo installed, so I didn't have to worry about it.


Report back from the weekend. Headed out Friday at 7. Arrived at our destination in Maine around midnight. 90% interstate until we were into Maine then the rest is backroads/state highways. Same thing coming back Sunday with some travel between destinations in Maine all on back roads. About 680 miles traveled this weekend. We kept a steady 218-228 temp on the transmission. A single peak in some stop and go stuff for a brief minute at 248 degrees About 60-70 degrees outside. Average speed 54 mph. Never faster than 74. RPM peak was 3680. We got about 19 mpg. No issues at all with the whole drive. Very happy with the performance of this 20 year old girl with 190k on the clock. Transmission fluid and filter done last week with OEM Febi fluid.
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2021 1:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Transmission cooler question Reply with quote

Whridlsoncestood wrote:
dsb0328 wrote:
Whridlsoncestood wrote:
I’m doing a 5 hour drive to Maine next weekend. Just put scangauge in to watch temps. No cooler added. Transmission filter and fluid change done this weekend. First time since I’ve owned it.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Good luck. I hope it goes well for you. I look forward to your experience.

On a side note, did you get your Scangauge from the factory or a store? I heard those big screen radios can wreak havoc with the Scangauge if it's not programmed correctly. The woman at the factory told me that when I called to ask some questions about mine. I only have a regular aftermarket stereo installed, so I didn't have to worry about it.


Report back from the weekend. Headed out Friday at 7. Arrived at our destination in Maine around midnight. 90% interstate until we were into Maine then the rest is backroads/state highways. Same thing coming back Sunday with some travel between destinations in Maine all on back roads. About 680 miles traveled this weekend. We kept a steady 218-228 temp on the transmission. A single peak in some stop and go stuff for a brief minute at 248 degrees About 60-70 degrees outside. Average speed 54 mph. Never faster than 74. RPM peak was 3680. We got about 19 mpg. No issues at all with the whole drive. Very happy with the performance of this 20 year old girl with 190k on the clock. Transmission fluid and filter done last week with OEM Febi fluid.


Thanks for the update. This data works in the favor of having a cooler as you went both above GW's "ideally stay under 200" and the other reference of "never over 240".

I do think that regular ATF drain and fills are the key to keeping these trannies running.
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2021 1:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Transmission cooler question Reply with quote

I would also say this could be used to advocate abscate’s thoughts too. 190k miles. Stock transmission. Obviously hits these temps regularly and has been fine for this whole life so far. I’ve debated getting a cooler when I bought the van but seriously have take back my initial I absolutely need to aspect. Like other have found. More possibilities for leaks and failures and with ordering oil from fcp euro I never have to pay for a transmission change again. It’s really no extra work when I am under there changing oil every 3k to toss a tranny fluid change into the mix every few times.

Just giving my data points. Not giving any sort of professional advise or opinion one way or the other.
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2021 1:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Transmission cooler question Reply with quote

Whridlsoncestood wrote:
with ordering oil from fcp euro I never have to pay for a transmission change again.



What does this mean?
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2021 2:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Transmission cooler question Reply with quote

Fcpeuro.com. Lifetime replacement on every part ordered from them. Oil. Filters. Wiper blades. Anything. After your first purchase the next time you want to say do an oil change you order the same stuff and when you do the change send the oil and filter back and the credit your last order.
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2021 3:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Transmission cooler question Reply with quote

Whridlsoncestood wrote:
I would also say this could be used to advocate abscate’s thoughts too. 190k miles. Stock transmission. Obviously hits these temps regularly and has been fine for this whole life so far. I’ve debated getting a cooler when I bought the van but seriously have take back my initial I absolutely need to aspect. Like other have found. More possibilities for leaks and failures and with ordering oil from fcp euro I never have to pay for a transmission change again. It’s really no extra work when I am under there changing oil every 3k to toss a tranny fluid change into the mix every few times.

Just giving my data points. Not giving any sort of professional advise or opinion one way or the other.


If that's the hottest it gets then I agree - no need for a cooler! If you see temps near or above 250 then I'd consider it.

It looks like the stock cooling systems can work fine for MVs and Campers even in the NorthEast and NorthWest and yet just are inadequate as loads (Rialta) or temperature (Desert and South) or repeated mtn pass/dirt road climbs enter the equation.

Here are some typical temperature breakdown tables the tranny shops use:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
[/img]
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2022 12:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Transmission cooler question Reply with quote

MrPulldown wrote:
dsb0328 wrote:


I don't believe he installed a thermostat, but maybe that's because the cooler is so small, he might not have thought it needed one. I'm in Missouri, so it gets cold, but not terribly cold. I'd say usually around 20-30 degrees during a cold winter and sometimes reaching 0, but not for very long usually. We mostly use the van for camping, which doesn't happen much in the winter.

I really appreciate the offer for the cooler. I wonder if I could just hook the hoses that are already there, from the original swap, up to it. Is it this one you're talking about? Send a pic please. And where are you located so I can see how much shipping might cost, unless you already know how much to Missouri.


Seems like based on your mechanic misguided cooler installation, he didn't even consider a t-stat. IMO and others a t-stat is very important for a ATF cooler. The ATF needs to be a min operating temp in order for it to function properly. That is why all ATF cooler kits come with one. In fact the OE cooler/heat exchanger also as acts as an ATF warmer as engine coolant warms up faster than ATF. We get similar temps to you and this winter the transmission would not shift well on short in town drives as the ATF never got up to temp. On cold days I would think the t-stat would cycle open and close to maintain a min operating temp. It does appear that you have the ability to monitor your ATF temp, so at least you'll be able to know if it is too cold and add a t-stat at a later time.

Any here is the cooler. It was damaged during shipping and GW replaced the cooler. They did not want it back and I was planning on using this for some other project. I have not found a suitable application in over 5 years so if you can put it to good use it is your. From the picture you can see that it was dented along the edge. The fluid passage is inboard of the first row of fins and was not touched. The dented top plate is just solid framing. I doubt the damaged fins affect its ability to cool much.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The cooler is about 24x6" overall with the fluid nipples at 0.385" in diameter. (not including the flare).

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


My Zip code is 96161.


This cooler is now gone. I can't edit the old post, so I am adding an update here. I think the guy who took it was going to use it in his Rialta.
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