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New Dude with 1974 Super Beetle...
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polypetalous
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 6:20 pm    Post subject: Re: New Dude with 1974 Super Beetle... Reply with quote

ashman40 wrote:
Found a pic from the gallery showing the wiring at the starter solenoid:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

You can see the stud where the battery cable connects to at the left. The red wire with the yellow ring terminal is not stock.
To the right of the battery cable is the red #50 wire connected to the #50 spade on the solenoid.

Notice the extra unused male terminal on the bottom of the solenoid... this terminal is not there on all starters. When it is, it is NOT USED. Make sure you have not accidentally connected the #50 to the wrong terminal. If you test the lower terminal, you should probably find it is connected to the right stud which powers the motor while the starter is spinning. This terminal was common on early solenoids and used to power the ignition coil directly from a battery 12v source while the engine was cranking. Giving the coil a boost of power to start the engine.


Hmmm I DID connect the Ignition Wire #50 to the "lower" spade connection... but on my starter (Bosch SR15???) that lower connection seems to be the ONLY connection, no #50 connection as the pic you posted shows.

Here is a very terrible pic of my current connection at the solenoid:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


It was so bizarre that the "ignition wire" was disconnected, I hadnt touched it up to this point...
Though I suppose perhaps when doing the rear brake lines, I caught it... maybe.

I will be checking all this out tomorrow night, just trying to gather as much info/understanding as possible ahead of time. I get precious few hours (late night weekends only) to work on this car.

Thanks again.

Ben
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ashman40
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 7:42 pm    Post subject: Re: New Dude with 1974 Super Beetle... Reply with quote

Can you post a better pic of your starter and focus on the area of the solenoid where the #50 terminal should be? Could it be the wire came loose because the male terminal on the solenoid broke off?


As far as replacement starters... if the testing reveals you need a new starter, consider getting the rebuilt autostick (automatic) starter like this one:
https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/c/ultima/chargi.../r612267a/
They are the same as the manual transmission ones but are self supporting and do not need a brass bushing be installed in the transmission housing. Also the autostick starter is more powerful than the manual transmission starter.... and the cost the same.
The only question is whether the FLAPS will accept your old manual transmission starter as a core for the autostick starter? Well, at most you will be out another $10 (core charge at Advanced Auto and O'Reileys.
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AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road Sad }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}
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polypetalous
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:28 am    Post subject: Re: New Dude with 1974 Super Beetle... Reply with quote

ashman40 wrote:
Can you post a better pic of your starter and focus on the area of the solenoid where the #50 terminal should be? Could it be the wire came loose because the male terminal on the solenoid broke off?


As far as replacement starters... if the testing reveals you need a new starter, consider getting the rebuilt autostick (automatic) starter like this one:
https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/c/ultima/chargi.../r612267a/
They are the same as the manual transmission ones but are self supporting and do not need a brass bushing be installed in the transmission housing. Also the autostick starter is more powerful than the manual transmission starter.... and the cost the same.
The only question is whether the FLAPS will accept your old manual transmission starter as a core for the autostick starter? Well, at most you will be out another $10 (core charge at Advanced Auto and O'Reileys.


Best pic I have at he moment, was shooting blind...

I had that thought too, that perhaps that terminal broke off, but the ignition wire female spade didn't have a male spade lead piece inside.
Not that that is proof of anything.

I will be into it tonight and report back what I find out.

On that Autostick Starter... Do you need to remove the manual "starter bushing?" Or is ok to just leave it in place?


Kinda hopeful the terminal #50 broke off and perhaps I can wire/solder/macgyver something to reconnect the ignition wire...
but I am also semi-resigned to a new starter.
We shall see.

Ben
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ashman40
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2021 12:10 pm    Post subject: Re: New Dude with 1974 Super Beetle... Reply with quote

polypetalous wrote:
On that Autostick Starter... Do you need to remove the manual "starter bushing?" Or is ok to just leave it in place?

No need to remove the old bushing.


polypetalous wrote:
Kinda hopeful the terminal #50 broke off and perhaps I can wire/solder/macgyver something to reconnect the ignition wire...
but I am also semi-resigned to a new starter.

Well, even if the male terminal broke off, any type of repair would be weaker than the original. Even if you could solder a male spade into place, the vibration at the engine/trans/starter is severe and would eventually break thru a soldered join.
You may be able to source a replacement solenoid. They used to sell these as they do fail while the starter motor is still good. But the cost of a rebuilt starter is about the same price as a new solenoid and you will have to take the starter out to install it. At that point you will spend more time and about the same money to have a partially rebuilt starter when for less time and a bit more money you could have a fully rebuilt one.
Just make sure the rebuilt starter has a good warranty. Many FLAPS will have a lifetime warranty on their starters. This adds to the value of installing a rebuilt one. Just keep your receipt.


EDIT: This looks like the replacement starter solenoid... if it is the solenoid that has failed:
https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/c/import-direct...i0/310205/
At $69.99 it is more expensive than the rebuilt starter + core charge! It makes more sense to get the rebuilt starter of the solenoid is bad/broken.
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road Sad }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}
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polypetalous
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PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2021 6:30 am    Post subject: Re: New Dude with 1974 Super Beetle... Reply with quote

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Well I did in fact have the ignition wire plugged into the correct terminal (#50).
Just an odd solenoid arrangement, was a Bosch SR15X (remanufactured).

All the same this is one dead starter.
No amount of jumping etc would get this starter to do anything.
Will be picking up a new starter and hopefully reinstall tonight.
Even if I can’t get the auto version starter, the bushing looks pretty decent.

Just crazy that the starter decides to go out after all this, but thus is VW life I suppose.

Thanks Ashman and all.
The adventure continues.

Ben
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polypetalous
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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 8:07 am    Post subject: Re: New Dude with 1974 Super Beetle... Reply with quote

Ok, got a new starter...
Unfortunately there were NO Auto-stick Starters readily available in my area, but luckily there was ONE manual starter available, ironically at the closest auto parts store to me.

So got the new starter from O'reillys, Chinese re manufactured unit (warrantied all the same). It DID come with a new bushing, though I opted to NOT change the bushing, was eager to get this guy going.

New starter in, car fired up pretty easy with some starter fluid, until the fuel pump was able to pull fuel through new lines.
Otherwise ran pretty decent, rough at first but settled in.

Idle is a bit low, takes some feathering of the throttle to keep it form bogging when revving up.
Of course now I see one of the pains of the Weber Progressive, with the adjustment screws facing the BACK of the engine...

However, was ready to go for a test drive and try out new brakes etc.

Let him warm up, hopped in went to put it into Reverse and Charlie nearly flew outta the garage (thankfully parking brake is all good)

Seems my clutch is NOT disengaging... considering I replace the clutch cable I assume:
1) Need to adjust the wing nut better (most likely, I am thinking)
2) or maybe the hook came off the clutch pedal (kinda doubt, but possible)

Anything else I should look at, to get clutch to disengage?

So engine is running, was able to heat up old oil and change out for new...
But maiden voyage put on hold until next weekend, hopefully.

Sooo close.

Ben
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ashman40
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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 9:36 am    Post subject: Re: New Dude with 1974 Super Beetle... Reply with quote

polypetalous wrote:
Ok, got a new starter...
It DID come with a new bushing, though I opted to NOT change the bushing, was eager to get this guy going.
New starter in, car fired up pretty easy with some starter fluid...

Awesome! I hope you added a dab of grease to the snout of the starter where it will engage with the bushing in the transmission.


polypetalous wrote:
Idle is a bit low, takes some feathering of the throttle to keep it form bogging when revving up.
Of course now I see one of the pains of the Weber Progressive, with the adjustment screws facing the BACK of the engine...

By BACK I think you meant FRONT. Front as in the front of the car side of the carb. The side closest to the fan shoud. Back/Rear being the rear of the car. LEFT/RIGHT being the left/right sides of the car. This naming convention works best in all things Beetle to avoid confusion. All because the engine is located at the rear of the car it is important to understand what is being described. Its okay, everyone needs to lean the "lingo". Wink


polypetalous wrote:
Seems my clutch is NOT disengaging... considering I replace the clutch cable I assume:
1) Need to adjust the wing nut better (most likely, I am thinking)
2) or maybe the hook came off the clutch pedal (kinda doubt, but possible)

Anything else I should look at, to get clutch to disengage?

Sounds like your clutch cable needs adjustment? How much free play do you have at the clutch pedal? This is the distance the top of the pedal moves before the TO bearing makes contact with the PP. Should be 10-20mm at the top of the pedal as shown below:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road Sad }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}
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polypetalous
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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 10:17 am    Post subject: Re: New Dude with 1974 Super Beetle... Reply with quote

ashman40 wrote:

Awesome! I hope you added a dab of grease to the snout of the starter where it will engage with the bushing in the transmission.


That much, I actually DID do... seemed like the right thing.

ashman40 wrote:

By BACK I think you meant FRONT. Front as in the front of the car side of the carb. The side closest to the fan shroud. Back/Rear being the rear of the car. LEFT/RIGHT being the left/right sides of the car. This naming convention works best in all things Beetle to avoid confusion. All because the engine is located at the rear of the car it is important to understand what is being described. Its okay, everyone needs to lean the "lingo". Wink


Lol, too true and right you are! Difficult to adjust due to adjustments being at FRONT of engine..

ashman40 wrote:

Sounds like your clutch cable needs adjustment? How much free play do you have at the clutch pedal? This is the distance the top of the pedal moves before the TO bearing makes contact with the PP. Should be 10-20mm at the top of the pedal as shown below:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The travel of the clutch pedal, as it sits now, feels "too easy." there is a slight amount of "free play," but after that its pretty smooth/easy until end of pedal movement... definitely doesn't feel like anything is engaging/disengaging... pretty sure its moving the "arm" on the trans-axle as I can hear it moving when I use the pedal.
But working alone, I haven't yet visually confirmed that the arm is actually moving with the pedal.

When I installed the new clutch cable I just screwed the wingnut enough to take out the "perceivable slack." I am thinking it needs more (?)

Ben
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ashman40
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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 11:25 am    Post subject: Re: New Dude with 1974 Super Beetle... Reply with quote

If the issue is the clutch not fully disengaging... as a test, tighten the wingnut a bunch more. So much so that the TO bearing is in constant contact and the clutch pedal never touches the floor. This way you know the TO bearing is being pressed into the PP as much as physically possible. If this works you know that the PP is capable of fully disengaging from the clutch disc. From this point, back out the wing nut until you start to have problem disengaging, then tighten back some. At this point you know the PP is disengaging. Here check if there is free play at the top of pedal movement that represents play between the TO bearing and the PP.
There are a few cases where the PP diaphragm fingers extend too far out. This results in the TO bearing making contact with the PP, so it is backed out more. But you then run into an issue where the range of TO bearing movement no longer compresses the PP enough to fully disengage. This can be caused by the flywheel being too worn (clutch friction surface too deep) or the machine shop surfacing only the clutch surface and not also fly cutting the PP mounting surface to maintain the distance between the PP mounting surface and the friction surface.
This problem is not an issue with other car types of flywheels where the PP mounts to the same flat surface as the flywheel friction face. When the flywheel is resurfaced both the mounting surface and the friction surface are the same. But with ACVW flywheels these are two different surfaces and it is easy to forget that when you fly cut one surface you must also fly cut the other to maintain the stock distance within tolerances.


The other thing that can cause a similar issue... the clutch disc is too thick. This is a manufacturing defect. When the clutch disc is too thick the PP is pre-compressed and and the range of motion left in the diaphragm is insufficient to fully release pressure on the clutch disc.
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AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road Sad }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}
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polypetalous
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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 12:50 pm    Post subject: Re: New Dude with 1974 Super Beetle... Reply with quote

ashman40 wrote:
If the issue is the clutch not fully disengaging... as a test, tighten the wingnut a bunch more. So much so that the TO bearing is in constant contact and the clutch pedal never touches the floor. This way you know the TO bearing is being pressed into the PP as much as physically possible. If this works you know that the PP is capable of fully disengaging from the clutch disc. From this point, back out the wing nut until you start to have problem disengaging, then tighten back some. At this point you know the PP is disengaging. Here check if there is free play at the top of pedal movement that represents play between the TO bearing and the PP.
There are a few cases where the PP diaphragm fingers extend too far out. This results in the TO bearing making contact with the PP, so it is backed out more. But you then run into an issue where the range of TO bearing movement no longer compresses the PP enough to fully disengage. This can be caused by the flywheel being too worn (clutch friction surface too deep) or the machine shop surfacing only the clutch surface and not also fly cutting the PP mounting surface to maintain the distance between the PP mounting surface and the friction surface.
This problem is not an issue with other car types of flywheels where the PP mounts to the same flat surface as the flywheel friction face. When the flywheel is resurfaced both the mounting surface and the friction surface are the same. But with ACVW flywheels these are two different surfaces and it is easy to forget that when you fly cut one surface you must also fly cut the other to maintain the stock distance within tolerances.


The other thing that can cause a similar issue... the clutch disc is too thick. This is a manufacturing defect. When the clutch disc is too thick the PP is pre-compressed and and the range of motion left in the diaphragm is insufficient to fully release pressure on the clutch disc.


Great thanks for that... I was thinking about just tightening the Clutch Cable until fully engaged to check, but wasn't sure if that'd be ok to do for a check.

It almost HAS to be the clutch cable adjustment, as nothing else has changed since being parked except the clutch cable and the clutch DID work when parked a number of years ago....
Then again, the starter worked then too!

Will try the adjustment first, this coming weekend.

And again, again THANK YOU Ashman, really appreciate all your help.
Owe you a beer or something!

Ben
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ashman40
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PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 1:02 pm    Post subject: Re: New Dude with 1974 Super Beetle... Reply with quote

polypetalous wrote:
Great thanks for that... I was thinking about just tightening the Clutch Cable until fully engaged to check, but wasn't sure if that'd be ok to do for a check.

Ok to run it this way for a few minutes, even take it for a spin. Just don't leave it with no free play. If the TO bearing is constantly in contact with the PP the bearing will prematurely wear out and start to make noise as the bearing breaks down. It will probably take weeks or months for this to happen, but the TO bearing is meant to last years!
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road Sad }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}
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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2021 7:40 am    Post subject: Re: New Dude with 1974 Super Beetle... Reply with quote

Success...
Clutch engagement/disengagement issue was purely down to me not adjusting the clutch cable wing-nut enough.
Got underneath the car on Friday night and saw that there was barely ~3/8" of thread through the wingnut.
So ALL I had was free-play.
Adjusted it to the "free play spec" ~.5-.8" and all is good.

Took Charlie out for his first spin Saturday.
Was running decent. After ALL my brake work, the brakes were ~70%, with too much pedal action to get only a slow brake response.

Re-bled and re-adjusted the brakes Saturday night, tried again Sunday and MUCH better brakes, could probably use one more bleed.

Most importantly was able to wash off the decades of filth and spiderwebs and even waxed him up and put his fancy shoes back on...
Wouldn't you know he "seemed" to run even better after gettin' shiny:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Have some bits and bobbles still, to make him "more road worthy," such as figure out why I have NO blinkers and need to look at steering, as it is a bit "clunky" especially when turning left.

But oh my, what a JOY!
Smiled like I haven't in quite a while, driving Charlie around.
Lots of attention at the gas station too, FUN!

Thanks again all!
The adventure moves forward (under its own power!)

Ben
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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2021 1:56 pm    Post subject: Re: New Dude with 1974 Super Beetle... Reply with quote

polypetalous wrote:
Success... Re-bled and re-adjusted the brakes Saturday night, tried again Sunday and MUCH better brakes, could probably use one more bleed.

It often helps while bleeding the brakes to over tighten the brake adjusters to the point where the brake shoes are locked up in the drum. This minimizes the distance the wheel cylinders need to move. Once you are done bleeding, go back and properly adjust the shoes so they lightly drag as you spin the drums.


polypetalous wrote:
Most importantly was able to wash off the decades of filth... Wouldn't you know he "seemed" to run even better after gettin' shiny:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Everything works better when clean and shinny! Cool


polypetalous wrote:
... and need to look at steering, as it is a bit "clunky" especially when turning left.

Be very weary of steering clunks. My buddy had this odd clunk every time he made a turn. It was comical... up until his ball join sheared off and almost crashed his car.
Lift the front wheels off the ground and pull on the wheels at different points. Do you see any suspension components moving? Ball joints, tie rods, idler arms, etc. Anything moving in a direction is should not move? Suspension components are often designed to rotate or deflect, but they almost never wobble in their socket.
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road Sad }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}
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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2021 7:07 am    Post subject: Re: New Dude with 1974 Super Beetle... Reply with quote

Progress continues on Charlie...
I told myself to take care of roadworthy-ness ahead of any upgrades/improvements, but... couldn't help myself and this weekend I took on the EXTREMELY sloppy shifter on Charlie.

Put in new Shift Rod Bushing, old one was GONE only the ring clip remained.
and new Shift Coupler Inserts (original style not urethane), old ones were intact but egged out and very loose in the cage.


Honestly could have probably changed out the Shift Rod itself, it was fairly scarred from no rod bushing etc. (polished and smoothed it as best as possible)
And more so could have (and will be) replaced the Shift Coupler pin (hardware):
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I also put on an EMPI quick/short shift kit.
Shifts WAY better, as in more precise and shorter throws, a little stiff but either that'll smooth or I'll change my grease used (black lithium, not sure Im happy with my choice). But all in all a much better shift experience.

Now on to next challenges and questions...
I "think" I may be onto some of my "Steering Clunk."
I discovered the Steering Damper is leaking... so dumb I thought I had an elusive brake leak, but was the damper the whole time.

So will be replacing the Damper and Damper Bushing, but:
What other Steering Components, should I look at changing "while Im in there?"


And I have NO Turn Signals...
As in no "clicking" no dash indicator illumination, no nothing left or right.
Emergency flashers work (dash indicator, clicking relay) but ONLY the passenger side flashes.
#2 fuse (2nd from drivers side) is blown so perhaps that is part of it...
Or perhaps its the flasher relay.. dunno yet.

I was extra dumb and thought the panel in the hood/trunk would allow me access to the back of the dash, but opened it up (had ~1" of caulk/plumbers putty stuck around edge, yuck!) only to discover the fan blower and wiper motor ONLY. Dang it! but did get the wipers working, yay.

So I guess the flasher relays are on back of fuse block...

Closer to a fully functional car here, having a blast along the way.


Ben
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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2021 10:00 am    Post subject: Re: New Dude with 1974 Super Beetle... Reply with quote

polypetalous wrote:
Put in new Shift Rod Bushing... and new Shift Coupler Inserts (original style not urethane)... I also put on an EMPI quick/short shift kit.
Shifts WAY better, as in more precise and shorter throws, a little stiff but either that'll smooth or I'll change my grease used (black lithium, not sure Im happy with my choice). But all in all a much better shift experience.

It makes a big difference when you go from sloppy shifting to new bushings and firm/tight shifting. Very Happy


polypetalous wrote:
And more so could have (and will be) replaced the Shift Coupler pin (hardware):
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

That pin doesn't look all that bad. If it is a thicker walled than the new pin, I'd clean it up and run it as long as it fit snugly thru the coupler. The aftermarket replacement pins tend to be thinner/lighter material.


polypetalous wrote:
Now on to next challenges and questions...
I "think" I may be onto some of my "Steering Clunk."
I discovered the Steering Damper is leaking... so dumb I thought I had an elusive brake leak, but was the damper the whole time.

So will be replacing the Damper and Damper Bushing, but:
What other Steering Components, should I look at changing "while Im in there?"

Inspect all the moving suspension components for movement in directions they are not supposed to move. Grabbing the raised wheel and shaking it while looking for movement will usually ID bad joints that need to be replaced.
Look for loose joints or cracked grease boots. Cracked boots can be replaced and the joint re-greased if the joint is still good.


polypetalous wrote:
And I have NO Turn Signals...
As in no "clicking" no dash indicator illumination, no nothing left or right.
Emergency flashers work (dash indicator, clicking relay) but ONLY the passenger side flashes.
#2 fuse (2nd from drivers side) is blown so perhaps that is part of it...
Or perhaps its the flasher relay.. dunno yet.
...
So I guess the flasher relays are on back of fuse block...

Yes, the relays are mounted to the relay bridge on the fuse box. Remove the entire fuse box from the underside of the dash so you can access the relays. Confirm if your flasher relay is a 2, 3 or 4-prong relay. Does it have the proper VW terminal numbers (31, 49 (+) and 49a)? If not, it may not be a compatible flasher relay.

If any of your corner lamps are flashing then the flasher relay is working at a basic level. The turn signal and E-Flasher systems share the single flasher relay and the corner lamps. Look for the black/white (L) and black/green (R) wires. Follow then and look for any loose connections in the black/white (L) side wires. Look under the steering column for the turn signal switch plug. Follow the black/white and black/green wires.

Not sure why #2 fuse is blowing. That is one of the parking light fuses. The turn signals are powered by the #12 fuse at the right side of the fuse box.
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AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road Sad }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 8:12 am    Post subject: Re: New Dude with 1974 Super Beetle... Reply with quote

Well been a couple of weeks, had to give up the last couple of weekends to help my Mother-in-law move... into my house ( Confused )
So looking to spend MORE time in the garage...

At any rate, did get a chance to dig a little bit further into my "non-functional turn signals."

Changed out ALL bulbs for new and DID replace Fuse #2.

With that done, my light situation:
1) Headlights (Low beam - yes / High Beam - 1of2)
2) Running lights ( ALL work)
3) Brake Lights (work)
4) Reverse Lights (NON WORKING)
5) Turn Signals (NON WORKING - NO CLICK NO NOTHING)
6) Emergency Flashers (Passenger side ONLY)

While the Emergency Flashers worked on Passenger side, they would slow down speed up etc. So I pulled the "Flasher Relay," here is what I have:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


So a Three-prong Flasher. I Did have a spare 3 prong "thermal flasher" (round type - new in box). Installed it and NO flashers or turn signals worked.. probably not right relay.
So I reinstalled original relay (pics above) and still ONLY the Passenger Side flashed, but was at least a consistent speed (no variation) but still NO TURN SIGNALS at all, no clicking no nothing.

So I guess need to keep chasing wires... wondering if its the switch in the steering column, but the high-low beam selector part of the lever works.

Ben
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polypetalous
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:44 am    Post subject: Re: New Dude with 1974 Super Beetle... Reply with quote

What are the chances that my "non-functioning" Turn Signals are due to something in the actual Turn Signal arm/switch (Column)?

I feel like the odds of it being "switch related" are low, but...

1) Weeks ago, When I first tried out the turn signals and High/Low beam selector, there was a one-time, popping sound (not good, but only happened the once) otherwise all "seemed" functioning. (meaning turn signal selector moved up/down and clicked the high/low in-and-out).

2) I often find little bits and pieces of Charlie as I work on him and remove stuff, I keep EVERYTHING I find "just in case." Well last week, getting out of Charlie I see this piece on the floor:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Had no idea what it was, but looked important. Then as I was researching my Turn Signal not working issue, i see this "Spring" IS part of the Turn Signal switch assembly...
Return spring, I guess (???)

So it seems I need to open up my steering wheel all the same, to fix this... hoping I find my Turn Signal problem as well...

But what are the odds its the switch, you think?


Ben
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cjsuner
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 8:31 am    Post subject: Re: New Dude with 1974 Super Beetle... Reply with quote

Well I don't know much about the electrical side of you finding your problem, I hope you do though!

But what I do know is that yes, that little "W" spring is your flasher "return spring" as you called it, and most likely, the little plastic square tabs that it hooks on to, have broken off, as lots of plastic does over time.

I believe the only fix for this is to replace the flasher arm assembly. Hopefully somebody will correct me being wrong, but at least for my 71' that is the only cure for it...
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71' Super Convertible (Orange)
74 Super Beetle (Red)
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polypetalous
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 1:00 pm    Post subject: Re: New Dude with 1974 Super Beetle... Reply with quote

cjsuner wrote:
Well I don't know much about the electrical side of you finding your problem, I hope you do though!

But what I do know is that yes, that little "W" spring is your flasher "return spring" as you called it, and most likely, the little plastic square tabs that it hooks on to, have broken off, as lots of plastic does over time.

I believe the only fix for this is to replace the flasher arm assembly. Hopefully somebody will correct me being wrong, but at least for my 71' that is the only cure for it...


You know, I hadn't thought about it, but you are probably right... In that this spring probably came off/out because the tabs are broken...

Looks like I will be replacing the turn signal switch assy after all.. of course will open to verify first.

All things considered, at least IF I have to replace the switch it will either fix my no turn signal issue or not and rule out the switch as the culprit.

Yay...?

I am thankful, that mostly parts are cheap for these cars, but there is an element of nickle and dime-ing with these cars too.

All in good fun.

Ben
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ashman40
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:13 pm    Post subject: Re: New Dude with 1974 Super Beetle... Reply with quote

polypetalous wrote:
5) Turn Signals (NON WORKING - NO CLICK NO NOTHING)
6) Emergency Flashers (Passenger side ONLY)

While the Emergency Flashers worked on Passenger side, they would slow down speed up etc. So I pulled the "Flasher Relay," here is what I have:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


So a Three-prong Flasher. I Did have a spare 3 prong "thermal flasher" (round type - new in box). Installed it and NO flashers or turn signals worked.. probably not right relay.
So I reinstalled original relay (pics above) and still ONLY the Passenger Side flashed, but was at least a consistent speed (no variation) but still NO TURN SIGNALS at all, no clicking no nothing.

That flasher relay should be fine as long as it is wired correctly.

This diagram from Speedy Jim’s site should help you understand how the turn signal switch and the E-Fasher switch are interconnected. They share a single flasher relay (your 3-prong unit) and they share the corner turn signal lamps.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The E-Flasher switch on the right has two functions. The top part as illustrated in the diagram selects which fuse powers the flasher relay. The #15 circuit fuse (there is no fuse numbered 15) is powered when the ignition switch is ON. The #30 circuit is constant 12v from the battery so will work regardless of whether the ignition switch is ON or not.

What you can do to test your turn signals… at the bottom of the steering column you will find a black plastic plug that connects to the pins coming from the turn signal switch assembly. Three of the wires in this plug are specifically for the turn signal switch:
    black/green/white = INPUT wire to the turn signal switch from the #49a terminal of the flasher relay.
    black/green = OUTPUT wire from the switch to the right side turn signal lamps.
    black/white = OUTPUT wire from the switch to the left side turn signal lamps.

Disconnect the plug from the pins and with a jumper wire connected to a 12v+ power source on the fuse box connect the jumper wire to the black/green and black/white wires in the plug one at a time. The respective corner lamps should turn ON (not flashing) when powered. If all four corner lamps turn ON and are the same brightness you know the wiring from the turn signal switch plug to the corners are good. If some lights are out, there is a problem in the wiring between the turn signal switch and the corner lamps.
If you pull the E-flasher switch out of the dash and find the black/green and black/white wires connected to that switch you and disconnect the wires and test them the same way. Powering the wires at the E-Flasher switch should result in the same solid ON for the respective side lamps.

If powering the wires separate from the switches turns the corner lamps ON you know the wiring and corner lamps are good. Your problem is with the switches or the flasher relay.

To bypass the flasher relay, identify which wire is connected to terminal #49 (+) on the flasher relay (normally a white wire coming from the E-Flasher switch. This is the power INPUT to the flasher relay. Identify the #49a terminal wire (normally black/green/white or blue). Remove the flasher relay from the fuse box relay bridge and connect a short jumper wire between the #49 (+) and #49a wires. This bypasses the flasher relay. Reconnect any wires or plugs you disconnected for the turn signal and E-Flasher switches. Remove the turn indicator lamp from the bottom center bulb holder in the speedometer (this bulb can cause issues while testing). Now test the turn signal switch and E-Flasher switch. Both should turn the respective corner lamps ON (solid) at the proper time but they will no longer flash since you bypassed the flasher relay with the jumper wire. This confirms if the switches are working as expected.

If all the corner lamps work when the switches are powering them, remove the jumper wire and reinstall the flasher relay making sure the INPUT and OUTPUT wires are connected to the correct terminal on the relay. The 3rd relay terminal (#31) should connect to a brown ground wire which runs to ground. If the lights work while the flasher relay is removed but do not work properly when the relay is installed you have a problem with the relay.
Re-install the turn indicator lamp into the bulb holder and install it into the speedometer. If the corner lamps do not work after re-connecting the speedometer indicator lamp it means you have the indicator lamp wired wrong or the flasher relay is incompatible with the wiring, or the relay is going bad.

Report back what you find after running the above tests.
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AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road Sad }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}
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