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71 Euro Typ 3 with carb
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bnam
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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2021 8:05 am    Post subject: 71 Euro Typ 3 with carb Reply with quote

I am new to Typ 3s. I have a 71 Typ 3 with a 1.6 Carb engine. Where can I get info on the carb numbers/specs for 71? US had changed to FI and most info refers to that.

I want to see if the carbs (replacement_ and disti (which I think is original) are matched. Also, the correct jetting for this 71 which has the offset airfilter arrangement (which I believe requires different jetting in left and right).

The connecting linkage ball sockets are pretty worn with play. They'be been tightened up with some safety wire. Would you replace just the tips? or buy the entire linkages? Or leave tightened up with the wire?

Car runs horribly right now. It starts. But feels like it runs on 3 cylinders. I replaced 2 and 4 plugs - and that it self took me a long time (to get the plug threaded back in the holes). And 1 and 3 are under/ahead of the carbs and look to be much harder to get to.

It will rev up. But, the moment I put a load on it, it dies down - for example I tried to reverse up my driveway and it will not go up - just dies. I suspected a failed condenser so I replaced it. Perhaps this one is bad as well?

I'm looking to rebuild the carbs and will try to buy rebuild kits and new plug wires. Is there a tuning manual for these carbs?

Thanks
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1971 1302LS Convertible (RHD) owned since '74
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1965 Karmann Ghia Coupe - under restoration
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pitargue
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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2021 9:06 am    Post subject: Re: 71 Euro Typ 3 with carb Reply with quote

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=540804

I read this topic about 10 times until I finally understood all the info. It also should have the jet sizes for the stock carbs.

Do you have the later model euro stock oil bath cleaner? Not the early ones with the (LHD) passenger side air cleaner being larger than the driver's side?

Before you do anything, make sure it's timed correctly, you have the proper spark plugs, plugs wires good, fuel pump good with proper fuel pressure, etc. Then, you can fine tune the carbs if it still doesn't run right.

I have a what I believe to be a AS41 case, dual port head 1600. I replaced the Brosols I had with stock early Solex 32 PDSIT's with the 2 squirters in the venturi that I bought from BerT3 years ago. I'm using 50 idle, 127.5 mains and 140 air correction with the later euro air cleaner. It idles like a fine sewing machine at 700 rpms and runs excellent until I run out of carb at around 4500 rpm's, exactly as how VW designed it. I couldn't be more happier.
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bnam
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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2021 9:32 am    Post subject: Re: 71 Euro Typ 3 with carb Reply with quote

It's a stock oil bath air filter. Not sure if earlier or later as I am not familiar with these cars.

I've come across that thread and downloaded couple of 71 related pages. Am confused though - I could have sworn that I had read somewhere that airfilters with offset arms leading to the the carb requires different jetting in each carb. My airfilter seems to match that description but the specs for the carbs show just one common setting.

Perhaps my airfilter is an earlier model that somehow got swapped in?

EDIT - I re-read the technical post. The offset model I have is the one with equal jetting. Ok, so I have the carb specs. I also have the Look Listen guide to PDSIT.
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1971 1302LS Convertible (RHD) owned since '74
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1965 Karmann Ghia Coupe - under restoration
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pitargue
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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2021 10:29 am    Post subject: Re: 71 Euro Typ 3 with carb Reply with quote

Do you have the stock oil bath air filter that looks like this?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


or

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Notice the (US) passenger side of the air cleaner

If you have the later, it's a proper late model euro air filter and you can use the same jetting on both side.

In the US, we got FI so these euro air cleaners never reached our shores as part of new car sales back in the day. Is your car a US market car? If so, it should have FI.

It could very well be that someone put in carbs on the original engine, or replaced the engine itself that had carbs.
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KTPhil Premium Member
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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2021 10:56 am    Post subject: Re: 71 Euro Typ 3 with carb Reply with quote

This may not help, but a couple of Scientific Publications manuals, which cover non-USA models, included this table.
(note different left and right specs)
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Last edited by KTPhil on Tue May 18, 2021 1:11 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2021 1:09 pm    Post subject: Re: 71 Euro Typ 3 with carb Reply with quote

Here is what Elfrink says about the 1971 version:
(note common jetting for both sides)
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bnam
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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2021 6:07 pm    Post subject: Re: 71 Euro Typ 3 with carb Reply with quote

pitargue wrote:
Do you have the stock oil bath air filter that looks like this?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


or

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Notice the (US) passenger side of the air cleaner

If you have the later, it's a proper late model euro air filter and you can use the same jetting on both side.

In the US, we got FI so these euro air cleaners never reached our shores as part of new car sales back in the day. Is your car a US market car? If so, it should have FI.

It could very well be that someone put in carbs on the original engine, or replaced the engine itself that had carbs.


It's a RHD car built for export to India. It's airfilter looks like the ones you posted. Like the first one actually - right side is integral, left one is attached vis something (right now duct tape - I have to remove it to find out what underneath).

The used carbs now on the car were imported from UK. Will see if they are the right kind. I also have the original carbs in a box somewhere. Was told these had a problem. Will see.

Anything to look out for when rebuilding these carbs? Common failure points? I've cleaned and reassembled one a few months ago for a friend, but apart from stripped threads and some missing parts, I didn't see any other issue. Do the throttle shafts tend to leak? I looked up the kits and they are pricey at about $30-40 per side.

When I got the car it was running but did not have power at higher rpms but would move. As I drove it home it got worse and just as I pulled into my driveway in reverse it had totally no power and would not even rev up. I suspected a failing condenser.

When I inspected the engine, I noticed that the vacuum line was installed using clear plastic tubing which they had run under the generator and so it was squeezed shut - so no advance. I had the correct braided 4mm hose which I installed. It did help. I changed 2 plugs. Then pulled the distributor to replace the condenser. It then ran better but not well. I only realized last night I had not reconnected the vacuum hose after refitting the distributor. Hope that solve the problem.

Do you recommend the Elfrink book? I'll look out for it. The Bentley only covers the US version FI I think.
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1971 1302LS Convertible (RHD) owned since '74
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1965 Karmann Ghia Coupe - under restoration
1966 Fiat 1500 Cabrio (with 1600 Twin cam)
1952 Citroen TA 11BL
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bnam
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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2021 6:15 pm    Post subject: Re: 71 Euro Typ 3 with carb Reply with quote

VWs were not officially sold in India back then (60-70s). But there were several hundred cars and buses imported as part of Indo-German govt or NGO projects or by German companies like Bosch operating in India.

This car was from a batch of 40-100 or so cars imported for one such project. Two of my friends have twin buses - built on the same day to the same spec for another such project (or perhaps the same project as this car).
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1965 Karmann Ghia Coupe - under restoration
1966 Fiat 1500 Cabrio (with 1600 Twin cam)
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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2021 8:30 pm    Post subject: Re: 71 Euro Typ 3 with carb Reply with quote

I would recommend the Scientific Publications #47 book (there are a couple of versions), which cover non-USA and, being from Australia, RHD models. They seem to have exploded photographs and others that are Bentley-like in clarity, plus many I've never seen before. Not easy to find, but well worth it!

If you can get the Elfrink book, that is very good, too.

I don't have it handy to check, but I think the Haynes Type 3 book covers carb and RHD models as well.
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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2021 9:50 am    Post subject: Re: 71 Euro Typ 3 with carb Reply with quote

Can the carb linkages be repaired with new ends or do I need to buy a whole set? I've repaired similar linkages on my BMW 2002tii. New ends were avail IIRC.
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bnam
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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2021 7:34 pm    Post subject: Re: 71 Euro Typ 3 with carb Reply with quote

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Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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Slow 1200
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 4:02 am    Post subject: Re: 71 Euro Typ 3 with carb Reply with quote

If you have the air filter with the "thick" arm on the right carb you have the wrong older filter, you need the one with the skinny arm for the equal-jetting carburettors
I have a euro-71 too, mine is automatic, though; a manual euro 71 should have 314-1 and 315-1 carbs
Distributor should be 311 905 205T, with vacuum advance and retard, make sure both sides of the canister don't leak and that they are hooked to the correct places, it's supposed to be timed at 0º with everything hooked up and engine running, that's around 6-7º btdc static (at least to get you started)
my distributor has a leaking retard side so I have the retard disconnected and set it at 30º maximum centrifugal advance (disconnect vacuum advance during the setup process, then hook it up again)

During 71 there were two styles of vacuum balance tubes between the manifolds, one uses two parallel tubes, the other one just one and two T pieces, they both suck (pun intended Laughing ), make sure the hoses are in good shape and not leaking
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bnam
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 8:26 am    Post subject: Re: 71 Euro Typ 3 with carb Reply with quote

The air filter is the thin armed right side. The original carbs are 314-1 and 315-1. It’s running on similar looking carbs. Not sure what they are yet.
I stripped down the left side 314-1 (the original one). Put it in my ultrasonic cleaner. It looked good until I looked inside the choke assy and compared it to the right side one. The end of the choke butterfly shaft has a 4 armed thingy - and one of the arms is broken. Perhaps I can swap of from the carbs that are on the engine - if they are not the right types.

Engine does have the 2 balance tubes. The disti is the 205T but it has a advance only can. I thought the retard was only on the DVDA distributors (at least it is on the Typ 1s). Where is the retard hooked up to on the carb? There is only one vacuum port and that is on the left side 314-1.
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1966 Fiat 1500 Cabrio (with 1600 Twin cam)
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 8:48 am    Post subject: Re: 71 Euro Typ 3 with carb Reply with quote

bnam wrote:
Can the carb linkages be repaired with new ends or do I need to buy a whole set? I've repaired similar linkages on my BMW 2002tii. New ends were avail IIRC.


Are you talking about the short on the carbs? They have threads, but finding ones w/ the little wings for the spring to hook onto might be challenging.

Or the longer ones? On mine, only the longer one has threads so seems possible to repair. I have a 64, so things might have changed over the years.

Didn't realize you're in India. (Your profile says El Dorado Hills as well. Parts certainly would be easier to find in the US.) Hope that 2nd wave of Covid is staying away from you and your loved ones. Stay safe.
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 9:21 am    Post subject: Re: 71 Euro Typ 3 with carb Reply with quote

Reminds me of my old '71 marina Blue Variant I had years ago. Really fine car!
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 10:49 am    Post subject: Re: 71 Euro Typ 3 with carb Reply with quote

Mario https://www.facebook.com/mario.steinhauser.1 in Germany for Type 3 parts in Europe.
ISP West does sell new short/long Solex rods.
Your missing rubber for the aircleaner pieces is a 1-2" section of inner-tube.
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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 12:22 pm    Post subject: Re: 71 Euro Typ 3 with carb Reply with quote

bnam wrote:
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Beautiful looking car. Cool
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PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2021 3:33 am    Post subject: Re: 71 Euro Typ 3 with carb Reply with quote

bnam wrote:
The air filter is the thin armed right side. The original carbs are 314-1 and 315-1. It’s running on similar looking carbs. Not sure what they are yet.
I stripped down the left side 314-1 (the original one). Put it in my ultrasonic cleaner. It looked good until I looked inside the choke assy and compared it to the right side one. The end of the choke butterfly shaft has a 4 armed thingy - and one of the arms is broken. Perhaps I can swap of from the carbs that are on the engine - if they are not the right types.

Engine does have the 2 balance tubes. The disti is the 205T but it has a advance only can. I thought the retard was only on the DVDA distributors (at least it is on the Typ 1s). Where is the retard hooked up to on the carb? There is only one vacuum port and that is on the left side 314-1.


311905205T is a DVDA, it should have a 883 canister which has advance and retard, check which canister it's in there now , advance hooks up to the left carburettor, retard goes to the left manifold, there should be a thin fitting close to the carb, make sure it's plugged so you don't get a vacuum leak
some information on that canister here: http://www.vwtype3and4club.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7988&start=50
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PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2021 3:46 am    Post subject: Re: 71 Euro Typ 3 with carb Reply with quote

Some more time spent looking at the engine today -- and more questions...

Engine bay
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The engine - with the airfilter off...
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If you see stuff that's wrong, please, let me know. I know the generator is not oriented correctly.

Here's what I found today...
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The advance vacuum hose seems to be routed from the manifold vs. from the carb. I think this is wrong. I've swapped it to the carb. And plugged this port. What is this port for? Retard?

The car seems to have been timed using the mark on the right. But the info on the VAG "Workshop Manual Typ 3 and 4" says that P006xxx engine (low compressions 1.6L m240 code) should use the left most (TDC mark)
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


When I pumped the accelerator linkage to see if the accelerator pumps were working, I noticed that left cab was not pumping any fuel out at all.

Left carb after pumping
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Right carb after pumping
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



I was also checking the distributor and I connected my multimeter to the contact point lead and to ground (body of distributor) - and strangely I got connectivity even when the points were open. What am I doing wrong?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Finally (only for now - more to come I'm sure)...

This is how the fuel filler looks. Is there some sort of rubber thingy that fills the gap?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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1971 1302LS Convertible (RHD) owned since '74
Click to view image
1965 Karmann Ghia Coupe - under restoration
1966 Fiat 1500 Cabrio (with 1600 Twin cam)
1952 Citroen TA 11BL


Last edited by bnam on Fri May 21, 2021 4:49 am; edited 1 time in total
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Slow 1200
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PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2021 4:01 am    Post subject: Re: 71 Euro Typ 3 with carb Reply with quote

That's the retard port, don't use it for the advance.
If your pulley has 4 marks (0-7.5-10-12), static time to 7.5 for now, then check with a strobe light how much it advances with and without the vacuum advance, also if the throttle plates are setup properly (not too open, and the hose is connected to the carb, not the manifold!) timing at idle should still be the same as static

it looks like you need to at least clean the carbs if the acc pump is not working, they are a pain to disassemble but pretty simple carbs, there's a check ball under a plug in the float bowl, you can pull the plug with a taillight screw (!)

also the carb cover has a small screw that you can take off to shoot carb cleaner in the acc pump circuit
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