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A 1.8L 412 engine build thread
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RWK
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:25 am    Post subject: Re: A 1.8L 412 engine build thread Reply with quote

Very nice build info Ray, see this link for copper alloy seats and such, I use these mat'ls extensively in plastic injection mold building that I do, great transfer of heat and it's hardness is good also. I plan to play around with making some seats with it, only because I have it left over from jobs, and don't want the associated problems that go along with heavier press fits of steel seats. Their mat'l are beryllium free however, (for safety in repair and machining),so may not work harden as much. The mat'l is aka Ampco 940 and 945.
I have dealt with them for over 30 years and they are very responsive, only recently they have got into motorsports.

http://moldstar.com/MotorsportApplications.htm
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:33 pm    Post subject: Re: A 1.8L 412 engine build thread Reply with quote

Yes! These are not 100% berrylium free. They say about 2%. Low enough that virtually no risk for machine work but just enough with the copper and other metals to have bery high heat transfer, moderate work hardening and very uniform heat expansion. Ray
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:18 pm    Post subject: Re: A 1.8L 412 engine build thread Reply with quote

Update 1-17-2020:

This is a very short update. New valve seats finally came in today. I got the mail too late to get to the machine shop. Maybe they are in tomorrow. For sure Monday!

Very nice parts! Almost too pretty to install! Laughing

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Hopefully the heads will be done in about a week. Everything is waiting on them!

More to come!
Ray
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RWK
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 2:39 pm    Post subject: Re: A 1.8L 412 engine build thread Reply with quote

They look great, alum bronze for intakes and BeCu for exhaust ? I assume the seat pockets will be machined oversize to true up, how much over did you get the seats,? can you go deeper also, say .005-.010 also to clean up, or do you have limits?
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:07 pm    Post subject: Re: A 1.8L 412 engine build thread Reply with quote

RWK wrote:
They look great, alum bronze for intakes and BeCu for exhaust ? I assume the seat pockets will be machined oversize to true up, how much over did you get the seats,? can you go deeper also, say .005-.010 also to clean up, or do you have limits?


RWK...from what I have been told and have read....and its hard to find exact metallurgy on these seats online as they are proprietary...the B-1 and B-2 alloys the seats re made of are a blend of bronze, phosphor bronze, copper and a few other bits and pieces. They are designed to be low in phosphor bronze to be harder and less issues with machining.

They are also designed specifically to transfer heat at a higher rate than straight phosphor bronze and about 2.0-2.5X higher than the stock nickel type seats. That factor...and this next one....are what sold me on using these seats.

The alloy is also designed differently and specifically for intake and exhaust temperatures....and to have very uniform thermal expansion rates....so they are specifically designed to stay in aluminum heads better.

These two alloys are specific to aluminum heads. They also require very exacting interference fit.

https://www.cheprecision.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/che-precision-catalog.pdf

As for the depth....this is why the head builder after pulling the old seats from the heads....and comparing another untouched core head I have....noted that it looks like the last re-builder only took a few thousandths out of the seat pocket depth...which is damn good...because there is VERY little room to remove material under the exhaust seats.

However, the last builder also did not put a wider than stock seat ring in when they rebuilt the heads...and it appears they actually used smaller ID...with the same OD as 1.7L seat rings ...and then throat cut the ID to make them 1.8L size....which made the seat rings...not exactly the same as stock 1.8L seat rings...but very close.
The issue the builder noted is that wholesale throat cutting on a ring that was probably cast to be a specific size range.....in this case the difference in 1.7L seat ring and 1.8L seat ring....was 39mm to 41mm. Thats 2mm out of what was not a very wide seat ring in the first place......excessiev throat cutting affects the structure and thermal expansion properties of tehseat ring.

So...since we are going to 42mm x 36mm.....and we have enough room....he spec'd a seat size....that needs no throat/ID cut...only blending to port walls....has the requisite 2mm extra in the OD plus a little.

So...these are custom specified and made....for 1.7L or 1.8L...to put 42mm x 36mm valves in the heads.

I have the blueprint sheets for anyone wanting to have the same seats made (posted a few posts back). I will get my hands on the old seats if I can....and measure the difference...or I will pull a pair of seats from the core set I have so I can post comparison to these.

More to come! Ray
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RWK
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:01 pm    Post subject: Re: A 1.8L 412 engine build thread Reply with quote

Nice, and keeping with that theme, of course special tin or al. bronze valve guides. Seat bores, bored on precision mill, with a boring head or CNC circular interpolated to insure hole roundness, and location, after above guides are inserted and each location indicated in to zero, no piloted drill press cutters should be used here, Rolling Eyes
Knowing you like data see this website regarding bronze alloys and there use's, no proprietary crap here, that don't fly in industry, enjoy, should be a great build, good luck.
https://www.anchorbronze.com/single-post/2018/02/13/C90500-Tin-Bronze-for-Valve-Guides
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:01 pm    Post subject: Re: A 1.8L 412 engine build thread Reply with quote

Nice, and keeping with that theme, of course special tin or al. bronze valve guides. Seat bores, bored on precision mill, with a boring head or CNC circular interpolated to insure hole roundness, and location, after above guides are inserted and each location indicated in to zero, no piloted drill press cutters should be used here, Rolling Eyes
Knowing you like data see this website regarding bronze alloys and there use's, no proprietary crap here, that don't fly in industry, enjoy, should be a great build, good luck.
https://www.anchorbronze.com/single-post/2018/02/13/C90500-Tin-Bronze-for-Valve-Guides
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RWK
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:02 pm    Post subject: Re: A 1.8L 412 engine build thread Reply with quote

whoops, fat fingers!
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:09 am    Post subject: Re: A 1.8L 412 engine build thread Reply with quote

RWK wrote:
Nice, and keeping with that theme, of course special tin or al. bronze valve guides. Seat bores, bored on precision mill, with a boring head or CNC circular interpolated to insure hole roundness, and location, after above guides are inserted and each location indicated in to zero, no piloted drill press cutters should be used here, Rolling Eyes
Knowing you like data see this website regarding bronze alloys and there use's, no proprietary crap here, that don't fly in industry, enjoy, should be a great build, good luck.
https://www.anchorbronze.com/single-post/2018/02/13/C90500-Tin-Bronze-for-Valve-Guides


Yes.....you could go the full exotic route with valve guixes as well...... it at,some point is a law of diminishing returns. Also when talking to the head builder about seats, we talked about guides.
The CHE guides as they note ....are designed to keep very tight even tolerances stem to guide. However....virtually all of that aimed at and more important for watercooled, super high lift, heavy and large diameter valves with high rpm.

The worry with air cooled heads.....is dont change something that you are not sure of the dynamic for. The silicone and manganese bronze guides we use....do expand a little more....and that may be quite required to maintain oil film and the tolerances needed at highest head temp.....so we did not second guess that material.

However...These guides were custom made by SI (thank you Len Hoffman for the contact info). They were made on the OD about a +2.5 oversize....to restore the exact interference fit to the head.
And...instead of using a precision broach pulled through to size them which has a tenden y go load up in the center and oscillate creating ridges of wider and narrower.....a precision diamond lapping tool was used for exact precision guide to stem tolerance measure all the way through the guide in several points.

The shop doing these heads is very precise.
Ray
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orwell84
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:29 pm    Post subject: Re: A 1.8L 412 engine build thread Reply with quote

If you ever get some extra time, it would be great to see how you measured the case, especially bores and mains. Nice write up.
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vamram Premium Member
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2021 11:27 am    Post subject: Re: A 1.8L 412 engine build thread Reply with quote

Bump....
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2021 1:55 pm    Post subject: Re: A 1.8L 412 engine build thread Reply with quote

vamram wrote:
Bump....


Its coming! The start of this year has just been stupid between work, travel and weather.

While it does not help the build thread.....I have a handful of other parts I have been working on for the cars suspension and brakes. I will have seperate reports on those not far off.

I ALSO....FINALLY .....just got gas tank outlet tube gaskets finished for this car and for my car....and have a handful of spares to hand out for free.

What should have been a simple task because I have made them befofe many years ago..
....turned stupidly complex Laughing

First.....The gasket paper I jad been sving in my stash for like 18 years.....just for this purpose.....turned out to be not good enough because the gasket coating or the paper had been reformulated along the way. Had to source a new gasket paper and top coating.

Then.....my best gasket circle cutter broke. Then.....I ordered a new cool gasket cutter....and with the big freeze weather system.....it took 2.5 weeks to arrive! Rolling Eyes

So those are done.....now I cannot post updates until tomorrow.....I broke my laptop screen on Friday..... Laughing ......and all of the pictures are in there and new screen comes tomorrow. Until then...email by phone only.

But....last week I also finished my long in the works mod for adding a specisl CHT gauge ring terminal that is held into the sparkplug well in the cylinder head by a snap ring.....and does not require removing the gasket from the spark plug and is not affected by removing or changing plugs.

I did one of these many years ago on another car by a eifferent method. Worked great....but when I blew that engine and lost that head.....I neglected to remove tje terminal and sensor wire.

So a few things coming this week. Ray
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PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2021 10:22 am    Post subject: Re: A 1.8L 412 engine build thread Reply with quote

My apologies to all...especially the owner of this engine....for the long delays in progress and updates.

Along with this build I have several small parts projects that have just been waiting to post "how to's" for. These are the gas tank inlet gaskets which are finished and the cylinder head temp sensor mounting system and the rear disc brake system for my car. More on those in their own threads.

So....with the new year starting and what little business there is picking up....I also had a family member with health issues. Taking care of my mom and dad became a full time issue over the past three months and time flew by like a rocket. Things are now pretty stable and its back to work.

Take care of your family! Wink


SO!.....


FINALLY!....after a year+ of me missing deadlines and the shop missing deadlines and getting caught in the racing season rush for the machine shop I was working with.....the cylinder heads finally are done and in my hands....and they are VERY nice!

Over the next two nights I will pull each valve and take detailed pictures....not because I do not trust the shop....but I want to document the work...and...I dont trust ANYONE! Laughing

So just some teaser pictures for the moment:

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These are 47.5cc chambers. This will allow an 8.12:1 compression ratio with an 0.040" deck and no head gasket...and no step in chamber. This will run very well and probably make an honest 90-92hp.

The valves are a five angle, seats are blended to heads. The springs are Crower that come in the type 4 store Kit for the 9550 and 9590. They are slightly smaller in diameter than the ones that came in these heads....which is better for less wear on the flanges around the pockets and they had better tension characteristics.

More to come shortly!

Ray
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PostPosted: Sun May 23, 2021 1:57 pm    Post subject: Re: A 1.8L 412 engine build thread Reply with quote

Update 5-23-2021

Ok…a little more detail on the heads.

During my conversation with the machinist when I was picking these up….he “said” these were a five-angle valve job (very nice…. but is more than necessary).
I was chatting with him last night and he looked at his notebook and noted…no…these are standard three angle with a slight back cut and swirl polish which is just fine!

By the way….my lighting sucks in these pictures. None of these pictures does these heads justice. I will get it worked out.
I miss my old shop area in Des Moines….I had a lighting rack over where I worked.

Here is the 1 & 2 head with the valves out:

Intake and exhaust seats

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The rough looking area between the ports is from the lighting on a very shiny area where light wire wheeling was done. My lighting sucks.

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The work looks excellent! The seats have only a small amount of ledge and good overall blending.

The valve guides are right at 8.0mm ID or 0.3149” and the valve stems are right at 0.3125” so stem to guide clearance of 0.0024”. Very good. They also had a rock of right at 0.018” which is factory best.

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The ports sat for an hour filled with solvent without leaking a drop.

Then after reassembly…I was checking the valve stems to make sure they were even with my steel rule….and I saw something I was not happy with.
Big gaps…much lower tips on the intake valves…..very slight gap on exhaust valve tips

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…….and then….DUH-H-H…I realized my steel rule was sitting on the valve cover rails! Rolling Eyes Laughing

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I have had this problem before. I always meant to find an 8” machine rule and buy it to keep just for this...but always forget. So…I dug out my trusty small granite plate…which is as straight on the edge as my machine rule and far smoother. Its 7.5” wide and just long enough.
You can see the 0.0025" feeler gauge between teh granite and teh valve tip in this pircture.

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Yes…the intake valve tips on both heads are VERY slightly lower than the exhausts….but measured out at 0.0025” low and dead equal to each other. That is no problem with geometry at all.

I called the machinist and he stated that for just a couple of thousandths he did not want to lap and sink the valves any lower on the intakes….just for that.

The valves have perfectly concentric lapping rings /marks.

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New Manley 42mm intake valves on left, old (but unused) Ivam 41mm intake valves on right

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Other items:

The springs that came on these heads were very good quality, but they had very small rust pits on them. They were going to be thrown into a rim polisher for a short time and then into a hot oil vat. They would have been just fine to use.

However, the machinist noted that looking at the cam specs, the usage of this engine and the fact that the Manley valves are lighter than the Ivam valves in the head….they had a little too much tension on them.

They had ~ 125-128 lbs on the seat with the old spring set. This is what Len Hoffman states he uses on hydraulic lifters with the same Crower spring set these are using.

Len stated a while back that on cams like the Web 73 or Web 142 at 110-115 pounds on the seat and at 0.430” lift they have 192 lbs.

These are set up at 113 to 117 lbs on the seat.

I sent with the heads a new set of springs and keepers that I had that came in my Raby 9550 kit. I said he could use those if needed. They are the same set of Crower springs from the type 4 store that HAM Inc uses with chromoly retainers.

The machinist also noted that they have a slightly reduced diameter which is good for keeping them off of the walls of the valve spring seat pocket…reducing wear….but also for safety he stepped the valve guide boss a bit.

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You can see the differences between the springs and retainers here in these two pictures. The one on the left is stock the one on the right are these.
Here is the difference in the springs.

The new ones are 1.235” on the left and the old ones on the right are 1.350”.

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So far, these heads look excellent! I will move on to the #3/4 head inspection and report if there is anything different. I will post a few pics for the record either way.

Ray
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