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Whaanga Samba Member
Joined: May 07, 2016 Posts: 627 Location: Rochester, NY
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Posted: Thu May 27, 2021 7:59 pm Post subject: Headlight Switch Plug layout |
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I need to replace the headlight switch on my 73 bus.
The switch in the bus is labeled 211 941 531E and has the following pins:
56
58
58b
58R
58L
30
X
Mine is wired like this:
56 - Black & White
58 - Grey
58b - Grey & Red
58R - Black & Red
58L - unused
30 - Red
X - Black & Yellow
But as I look at switches on the market, none of them have a plug labeled 58R (and I've looked on the classifieds and from commercial vendors).
As I look at the schematic, I don't see 58R (or the corresponding black & red wire that mine has)
And in fact, the only black & red wire I see on the schematic is for the ignition switch:
My question are: 1) Do I need to connect the black & red wire since it does not appear on the schematic?
2) What is the function of the black & red wire as shown in the schematic at the ignition switch?
3) Is my switch wired incorrectly?
Thanks,
Jeff _________________ Late 1973 Bay w/a transplanted 914 Engine |
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telford dorr Samba Member
Joined: March 11, 2009 Posts: 3555 Location: San Diego (Encinitas)
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Posted: Fri May 28, 2021 12:54 am Post subject: Re: Headlight Switch Plug layout |
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Quote: |
56 - Black & White
58 - Grey
58b - Grey & Red
58R - Black & Red
58L - unused
30 - Red
X - Black & Yellow
But as I look at switches on the market, none of them have a plug labeled 58R (and I've looked on the classifieds and from commercial vendors). |
58R and 58L were not supplied or used on US delivered buses. They were used in Europe to meet parking lamp regulations. Was your bus a European delivery, perchance?
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And in fact, the only black & red wire I see on the schematic is for the ignition switch |
Also on the brake light wiring.
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My question are: 1) Do I need to connect the black & red wire since it does not appear on the schematic? |
No, but you should find out where it goes. Disconnect it and see what stops working or never worked.
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What is the function of the black & red wire as shown in the schematic at the ignition switch? |
It's the wire to the starter solenoid. Unlike the one in your picture, the actual one is big in diameter.
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3) Is my switch wired incorrectly? |
Other than the red/black, yes. _________________ '71 panel, now with FI
'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones
In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh
When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. The pain is only felt by others.
Same thing happens when you're stupid. - Philippe Geluck
More VW electrical at http://telforddorr.com/ (available 9am to 9pm PST) |
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Whaanga Samba Member
Joined: May 07, 2016 Posts: 627 Location: Rochester, NY
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Posted: Fri May 28, 2021 2:29 pm Post subject: Re: Headlight Switch Plug layout |
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Thank You telford dorr,
I checked the black & red wire and it goes directly from 56R terminal to the light in the instrument cluster indicating that the headlights lights are on (on mine, it's a green light). It seems that if I get a new switch (that does not include the 56R terminal) I could utilize a double connecter and attach this wire to 56b. Does that make sense? _________________ Late 1973 Bay w/a transplanted 914 Engine |
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busdaddy Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004 Posts: 51148 Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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Posted: Fri May 28, 2021 3:00 pm Post subject: Re: Headlight Switch Plug layout |
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Sure you don't mean 58?
Odd about the wire to the cluster being black/red, that circuit is usually grey/black, and on most switches it connects to 57. You could use a 58 terminal, but it'll be on even when the headlights are on (instead of just parking lights), if you drive alot at night in the pitch black that bright green light will get old real quick.
Most new switches don't have a 57 terminal for some reason. _________________ Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
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Слава Україні! |
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telford dorr Samba Member
Joined: March 11, 2009 Posts: 3555 Location: San Diego (Encinitas)
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Posted: Fri May 28, 2021 4:16 pm Post subject: Re: Headlight Switch Plug layout |
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That's strange about that wire color but, unfortunately, not unusual. Half of all the buses I've worked on has at least one wire the wrong color, it seems. I think that when VW ran out of a particular wire color over in the electrical department, they substituted whatever they had handy.
Makes diagnosis really hard. Especially when you're replacing something like a fuse block, and bogus wire colors show up on reassembly. (Word to the wise: take a picture of stuff like that. Don't depend on the schematics in the Bentley or Technical to cover all the bases...)
The wire would go to terminal 57. You won't find a switch which has that terminal anymore, but you can fashion a workaround using a cube relay. As Busdaddy says, I wouldn't hook it to 58 - if nothing else, insulate it and ignore it. _________________ '71 panel, now with FI
'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones
In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh
When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. The pain is only felt by others.
Same thing happens when you're stupid. - Philippe Geluck
More VW electrical at http://telforddorr.com/ (available 9am to 9pm PST) |
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Whaanga Samba Member
Joined: May 07, 2016 Posts: 627 Location: Rochester, NY
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Posted: Fri May 28, 2021 9:07 pm Post subject: Re: Headlight Switch Plug layout |
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Quote: |
Sure you don't mean 58? |
Oops - yes, I do mean 58 (not 56).
OK - so this is interesting - This is the only bus I've ever owned so I have no other point of reference - but that little green light is always on when the headlights are on. I though this was standard procedure.
But it sounds like that little light should only be on when the parking lights are on (when the switch is pulled out half way) and when the switch is pulled all the way open, then the green light should go out and the dash lights should come on. Is that correct?
And to be clear, for this to function as designed, I should have a terminal labeled 57 that controls that small green light on the instrument cluster - and this green light is to indicate that the parking lights are on, but not the headlights.
Thanks for your guidance. _________________ Late 1973 Bay w/a transplanted 914 Engine |
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busdaddy Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004 Posts: 51148 Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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Posted: Fri May 28, 2021 9:48 pm Post subject: Re: Headlight Switch Plug layout |
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Correct, it's a Europe deal where the headlights glow dimly instead of the ones we call signals on the first click, extra low beam you might call it. _________________ Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Слава Україні! |
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Jrh5r Samba Member
Joined: January 08, 2021 Posts: 33 Location: East coast
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Posted: Sat May 29, 2021 8:24 am Post subject: Re: Headlight Switch Plug layout |
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Just put in a new switch a few weeks ago. Kind of the same issue. Mine is a US delivered bus according to the M-plate. Also have the same red and black wire that was hooked up to terminal 57. The new switch had no spot for it. I didn’t wire it back up |
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busdaddy Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004 Posts: 51148 Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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Posted: Sat May 29, 2021 8:41 am Post subject: Re: Headlight Switch Plug layout |
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Interesting, as Telford says it must be a "use what ya got" deal, much like the yellow wire on some early FI fuel pump triggers, and the blue/red to the dome light on some campers. _________________ Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Слава Україні! |
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Jrh5r Samba Member
Joined: January 08, 2021 Posts: 33 Location: East coast
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Posted: Sun May 30, 2021 9:15 am Post subject: Re: Headlight Switch Plug layout |
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I think you should be able to tap into a running light wire on the front left or right and use that instead of the switch. I’m going to mess around with mine today since I’ve got the same issue as you. I’ll see what I can figure out. |
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Jrh5r Samba Member
Joined: January 08, 2021 Posts: 33 Location: East coast
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Posted: Sun May 30, 2021 1:09 pm Post subject: Re: Headlight Switch Plug layout |
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Jrh5r wrote: |
I think you should be able to tap into a running light wire on the front left or right and use that instead of the switch. I’m going to mess around with mine today since I’ve got the same issue as you. I’ll see what I can figure out. |
Edit: wouldn’t work as it would be on at all times when the headlights are on. I’ve not tried a work around, as it’s pretty easy to tell when the parking lights are left on imo |
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JLT Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2008 Posts: 162 Location: Sacramento CA
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Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2022 7:51 pm Post subject: Re: Headlight Switch Plug layout |
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I know that this thread is a little stale, but it seems to be the best place to get help:
I looked at the headlight switch in my '71 bus just now. It has a marking stamped on it designating it as part # 211-941-531E. It's an aftermarket one, and lacks the #57 terminal that lights up the parking-light indicator on the dash when the parking lights are on but cuts out when the headlights go on.
The curious thing about it is that I went to the JBugs web site to determine the connector layout. It doesn't look like what they call a 211-941-531E at all; it looks, in fact, like a 113-941-531E, which they list as being fitted onto a post-1973 bug, Super Beetle, Ghia, or Thing.
So what gives? The switch seems to work well, except for not having that terminal 57. What was the number of the original '71 switch with that #57 terminal, and is it still available? Everybody seems to sell the later one, not the original. _________________ -- JLT
Present bus: '71 Dormobile Westie
with an Allstate single-wheel trailer
Past buses: '61 17-window
'70 Frankenwestie
'71 Frankenwestie |
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telford dorr Samba Member
Joined: March 11, 2009 Posts: 3555 Location: San Diego (Encinitas)
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Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 9:36 am Post subject: Re: Headlight Switch Plug layout |
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That's a good question, as the NLA 71-72 switches have both the 57 and X terminals, and thus would seem to be the universal replacement switch... _________________ '71 panel, now with FI
'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones
In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh
When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. The pain is only felt by others.
Same thing happens when you're stupid. - Philippe Geluck
More VW electrical at http://telforddorr.com/ (available 9am to 9pm PST) |
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airschooled Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012 Posts: 12722 Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 9:43 am Post subject: Re: Headlight Switch Plug layout |
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I wouldn’t trust JBugs for any info other than google ad placement.
Does your ‘71 have the X terminal in the ignition switch?
Robbie _________________ Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
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germansupplyscott Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2004 Posts: 7093 Location: toronto
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Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 11:36 am Post subject: Re: Headlight Switch Plug layout |
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'71 part number is 211 941 531. (no letter)
It's not available new unless you find an NOS one.
_________________ SL |
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germansupplyscott Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2004 Posts: 7093 Location: toronto
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Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 11:52 am Post subject: Re: Headlight Switch Plug layout |
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telford dorr wrote: |
That's a good question, as the NLA 71-72 switches have both the 57 and X terminals, and thus would seem to be the universal replacement switch... |
The 58b terminal on the '71 switch is 1/4". 'Universal' switches seem to use the .110" terminal for 58b. Not a big deal but makes the switch not be 'universal' so maybe that's part of why some vendors have done this. _________________ SL |
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JLT Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2008 Posts: 162 Location: Sacramento CA
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Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 1:34 pm Post subject: Re: Headlight Switch Plug layout |
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airschooled wrote: |
I wouldn’t trust JBugs for any info other than google ad placement.
Does your ‘71 have the X terminal in the ignition switch?
Robbie |
That's the weird thing... my switch didn't seem to have any terminal labels at all, although the red-black wire made it pretty clear which one that was. _________________ -- JLT
Present bus: '71 Dormobile Westie
with an Allstate single-wheel trailer
Past buses: '61 17-window
'70 Frankenwestie
'71 Frankenwestie |
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JLT Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2008 Posts: 162 Location: Sacramento CA
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Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 1:37 pm Post subject: Re: Headlight Switch Plug layout |
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germansupplyscott wrote: |
telford dorr wrote: |
That's a good question, as the NLA 71-72 switches have both the 57 and X terminals, and thus would seem to be the universal replacement switch... |
The 58b terminal on the '71 switch is 1/4". 'Universal' switches seem to use the .110" terminal for 58b. Not a big deal but makes the switch not be 'universal' so maybe that's part of why some vendors have done this. |
The switch on my bus did have the .110" terminal for 58b.
I'm beginning to think that there are a number of switches out there with the 211-941-531E part number, sold as more-or-less universal switches, but with different terminal patterns. _________________ -- JLT
Present bus: '71 Dormobile Westie
with an Allstate single-wheel trailer
Past buses: '61 17-window
'70 Frankenwestie
'71 Frankenwestie |
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germansupplyscott Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2004 Posts: 7093 Location: toronto
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Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2022 2:24 pm Post subject: Re: Headlight Switch Plug layout |
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JLT wrote: |
I'm beginning to think that there are a number of switches out there with the 211-941-531E part number, sold as more-or-less universal switches, but with different terminal patterns. |
I would not be surprised if this were true. Here are a couple photos of a genuine 211 531E switch.
Also in case I wasn't being clear before, the correct original 531 (no letter) switch for a '71, that has the .250" 58b terminal. The later Bus (and switch) have a .110" terminal on the switch and wire for 58b.
_________________ SL |
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telford dorr Samba Member
Joined: March 11, 2009 Posts: 3555 Location: San Diego (Encinitas)
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Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2022 12:50 am Post subject: Re: Headlight Switch Plug layout |
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germansupplyscott wrote: |
The 58b terminal on the '71 switch is 1/4". 'Universal' switches seem to use the .110" terminal for 58b. Not a big deal but makes the switch not be 'universal' so maybe that's part of why some vendors have done this. |
Trivial fix: make 58b a split pin (like on some tail light and side marker fixtures) so that either size terminal will fit. They should have done that to the '531e' replacement switches, for the same reason. _________________ '71 panel, now with FI
'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones
In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh
When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. The pain is only felt by others.
Same thing happens when you're stupid. - Philippe Geluck
More VW electrical at http://telforddorr.com/ (available 9am to 9pm PST) |
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