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2054 Build for the Fastback
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Bobnotch
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PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2021 6:42 pm    Post subject: Re: 2054 Build for the Fastback Reply with quote

VWporscheGT3 wrote:
Folks like you Steve are genuinely helpful, and hopefully the invasion still goes on like planned and you come cause i would love to finally meet you , shake your hand, and buy you a beer. if your watching this too Bob , you too brother. some of the best people i have met in my life are through the car community , granted there are exceptions to the rules. but you guys are rock solid, and i want you guys to know that. my responses are usually short , and since text makes it hard to read inflection i can sometimes come off as "yeah , sure whatever" and i dont mean it that way.

Hey no problem, I like giving out help when I can. I mainly was just checking the thread to see how the Elky was coming along. Looks like/sounds like Steve wants to help you spend some money. Laughing Wink It all sounds like good advice too. Well except building cars just to put a motor in. Wink But Steve does this enough times that he can almost build an engine blind folded. It's his forte. I don't doubt that pic of a couple in bed would have the man (Steve) thinking about engines (in his thread posted by Jason). I'm waiting for pics of his oldest (or youngest) building up an engine himself. A friend of mines kid got the mechanical gene from his uncle, and builds custom low riders, while his much older brother just works someplace doing a 9 to 5 job. The youngest moved out of state and has been working his butt off while raising a family. My son stays in contact with him and lets me know how he's doing. He's also completely self taught.
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VWporscheGT3
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PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2021 12:07 pm    Post subject: Re: 2054 Build for the Fastback Reply with quote

Quote:
Hey no problem, I like giving out help when I can. I mainly was just checking the thread to see how the Elky was coming along. Looks like/sounds like Steve wants to help you spend some money. Laughing Wink It all sounds like good advice too. Well except building cars just to put a motor in. Wink But Steve does this enough times that he can almost build an engine blind folded. It's his forte. I don't doubt that pic of a couple in bed would have the man (Steve) thinking about engines (in his thread posted by Jason). I'm waiting for pics of his oldest (or youngest) building up an engine himself. A friend of mines kid got the mechanical gene from his uncle, and builds custom low riders, while his much older brother just works someplace doing a 9 to 5 job. The youngest moved out of state and has been working his butt off while raising a family. My son stays in contact with him and lets me know how he's doing. He's also completely self taught.


the Elky.. its hard to find the motivation... I've been wrapped up with the tinker here tinker there aspect of my fastback and its been hard to WANT to work on it. the stroker 5.3 needs about $1500 worth of stuff to get it to longblock phase and then about 5 grand to get in the car running ( it already runs... its just boring with a 305). then the big list of things like frame stiffeners and suspension components... its just a long way off. I tend to gravitate towards immediate gratification and this 2110 build by the numbers is definitely more attainable... the endless slippery slope then of once finished , making sure everything stays "just so"... it just keeps going lol.

Grandpa owned and operated with his brother a radiator /auto repair/ machine shop in Palmdale, Ca . Cleve's Automotive. so I think thats where my mechanical ability comes from.. but since my father was completely un-interested in the shop they sold it off in the mid 90's. I learned more about how to treat people/customers through my grandfathers stories than I did mechanical work (of which I'm extremely grateful) My dad taught me the basics , oil changes, brake jobs and such , but everything else is self and or learned under engine builders I have great regard for. my biggest issue throughout my car journeys though has always been income. I make a decent amount of money ...but kids are expensive Laughing Laughing .
I can build engines for guys , know exactly what they need how to do this or that to get them to the levels they want..make decisions easily... but when it comes to my own stuff.... its like i lose the ability to make decisions....its dumb . Laughing Laughing and the simple fact that V8 doesnt translate as well into VW...
[/quote]
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VWporscheGT3
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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2021 7:41 am    Post subject: Re: 2054 Build for the Fastback Reply with quote

Brian_e wrote:
With a 76mm crank, use 5.5 rods, and B pistons, and you will have a near perfect .045" deck height, and keep the engine narrow. You will also have a much easier time assembling it with these rods over ground stock rods. With the B pistons you also get the slipper skirt style, the thinner second ring, and a much lighter piston. All good things.
https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/1253.htm

I also vote for the Web 163. Great cam for a 2000+cc. I built a 94x76 with really good 40x35 heads, 163, 9.0:1, 1 1/2" exhaust and 40mm IDF's. Fantastic driving engine. Lots of power everywhere. The w110 or 120 could work, but they are boring, and uneventful to drive. The 2239 is a great cam in smaller engines. It wont pull high enough when you get into the larger displacement. Stick with something in the 245-250 @.050" range.

Make sure the heads are right. No huge blown out ports, and make sure they get a really good 3+ angle valve job after the port work is done.

Brian


I like your Idea about the B's . after reviewing the specs of the ones i got coming off the line and true B pin height. they are still to short.. better suited for a much larger stroke. anyway... back to the drawing board[/u][/b]
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VWporscheGT3
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:26 am    Post subject: Re: 2054 Build for the Fastback Reply with quote

https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/3548.htm

.... now, could this be adapted....

the real question lies somewhere else... should it ... lmfao. Laughing
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lawn ninja
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:10 am    Post subject: Re: 2054 Build for the Fastback Reply with quote

I built a 2054 last year with .040 deck height, a set of out of the box panchito heads, with the CB hi rev single springs, titanium retainers, 40x35.5 valves, 1.1:1 rockers, 28mm ultralight lifters, with an eagle 2242 cam, 15/8 A-1 exhaust and 44IDF's and that car screamed.

Really solid street combo, I also had the entire lower assembly balanced like Steve was talking about and it was worth every penny. Car pulled from about 1500RPM to redline really hard. I had the MSD box set at a 6k cutoff and ran the full MSD ignition. I also ran the CB super Race rods.

The car screamed. I guess my point would be the setup you're building sounds pretty similar and I really liked the 2242 cam. Something to chew on is all.
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Brian_e
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:28 am    Post subject: Re: 2054 Build for the Fastback Reply with quote

lawn ninja wrote:
I built a 2054 last year with .040 deck height, a set of out of the box panchito heads, with the CB hi rev single springs, titanium retainers, 40x35.5 valves, 1.1:1 rockers, 28mm ultralight lifters, with an eagle 2242 cam, 15/8 A-1 exhaust and 44IDF's and that car screamed.

Really solid street combo, I also had the entire lower assembly balanced like Steve was talking about and it was worth every penny. Car pulled from about 1500RPM to redline really hard. I had the MSD box set at a 6k cutoff and ran the full MSD ignition. I also ran the CB super Race rods.

The car screamed. I guess my point would be the setup you're building sounds pretty similar and I really liked the 2242 cam. Something to chew on is all.


Be careful with the CB singles and 40mm valves. I built a 2234cc with the same top end setup. The engine never went over 5300rpm. At the 10k mile mark it started missing about 4800rpm. We tried everything, and it ended up being the valve springs were shot, and the valves were floating. The springs had less tension than a stock VW spring. Beat up the valves and seats, and needed the seat re-cut.

I replaced the valve springs, with good quality singles with an inner damper, re-cut the seats, and faced the valves, and it has been perfect for another 40k since.

Brian
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VWporscheGT3
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:11 pm    Post subject: Re: 2054 Build for the Fastback Reply with quote

lawn ninja wrote:
I built a 2054 last year with .040 deck height, a set of out of the box panchito heads, with the CB hi rev single springs, titanium retainers, 40x35.5 valves, 1.1:1 rockers, 28mm ultralight lifters, with an eagle 2242 cam, 15/8 A-1 exhaust and 44IDF's and that car screamed.

Really solid street combo, I also had the entire lower assembly balanced like Steve was talking about and it was worth every penny. Car pulled from about 1500RPM to redline really hard. I had the MSD box set at a 6k cutoff and ran the full MSD ignition. I also ran the CB super Race rods.

The car screamed. I guess my point would be the setup you're building sounds pretty similar and I really liked the 2242 cam. Something to chew on is all.


funny you mention the Eagle 2242, that one was closest to the Web 163 spec wise. lightweight valve train likely made all the different in that build. lifters , retainers pushrods.... all add's up.. the more weight the spring has to push back to closed and keep the lifter on the lobe....

the 1600 in the car now has Factory lifters on the 110 grind, and it will pull to 5500... cleanly.. before i get nervous and back off .. anyway... i guess just thinking this one out, Ninja, Brian, as always guys.. thank you. ill have more to talk about when i get back from the road trip. Motor build will be next on my agenda for sure, bearings ordered and going to figure out deck
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lawn ninja
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 1:42 pm    Post subject: Re: 2054 Build for the Fastback Reply with quote

Brian_e wrote:


Be careful with the CB singles and 40mm valves. I built a 2234cc with the same top end setup. The engine never went over 5300rpm. At the 10k mile mark it started missing about 4800rpm. We tried everything, and it ended up being the valve springs were shot, and the valves were floating. The springs had less tension than a stock VW spring. Beat up the valves and seats, and needed the seat re-cut.

I replaced the valve springs, with good quality singles with an inner damper, re-cut the seats, and faced the valves, and it has been perfect for another 40k since.

Brian


Interesting as I didn't have that problem on mine. The car pulled all the way to the cutoff imposed by the ignition. Always good to hear other takes on stuff though and it's not like it's a bad idea to go spending money on valve springs. What springs did you end up using to fix the issue? Also what heads were you using on the car? and components in the heads? Really just asking for my own dictionary as I really enjoy building motors, probably my favorite thing to do. From that I try to read as much as I can about other people's experiences.

Jason
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Clatter
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2021 7:41 am    Post subject: Re: 2054 Build for the Fastback Reply with quote

It's common nowadays to push the limits of what a spring can control.
I'm using a set of old Empi singles, with a big ol' stack of shims under them to control a Web 163 pushing light(er) Manley stock-size 35/32 valves.
This with Scat lifters, steel pushrods, steel retainers, and swivel feet on factory 1.1 rockers.
It's revving past 6000 right after building it,
But i certainly don't expect it to do so for very long.
Nice to have single springs on that much cam; oil stays cool, adjustment holds, valvetrain is quieter,
But I'm watching it carefully.. Wink


Gene Berg used to insist on dual springs even with a mild Engle W110,
But he built for maximum longevity when these cars were used as actual drivers.

It's one thing to control the valves; and entirely another to control them long-term.

Unless you like to be digging in and taking things back apart,
Don't be pushing your luck with light springs.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2021 7:55 am    Post subject: Re: 2054 Build for the Fastback Reply with quote

Brian_e wrote:

Be careful with the CB singles and 40mm valves. I built a 2234cc with the same top end setup. The engine never went over 5300rpm. At the 10k mile mark it started missing about 4800rpm. We tried everything, and it ended up being the valve springs were shot, and the valves were floating. The springs had less tension than a stock VW spring. Beat up the valves and seats, and needed the seat re-cut.

I replaced the valve springs, with good quality singles with an inner damper, re-cut the seats, and faced the valves, and it has been perfect for another 40k since.

Brian


Was this application a bus, by any chance?

Also want to know about the springs you ended up using..
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VWporscheGT3
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2021 7:32 am    Post subject: Re: 2054 Build for the Fastback Reply with quote

Bearings showed up YAY!!!

so I staring mocking one side up to get and idea as to where everything sits currently. with the 76mm crank and stock rods and these AA barrels the piston sits .035" above the deck. Now I'm just glad its not super proud like .100" or anything like that.
If I use a .090 shim under the barrel that moves the piston .055" down in the hole which still gives me ok quench. (I personally prefer .040-.045".... but thats just me) . at .055" in the hole and hog out the chambers to 56cc that gives me dead nuts 9.0:1 , with a little bit of intake port work and the CB eagle 2242 (very close to the Web 163) I think this will be a fun little scoot of a motor.
with my case i was making slight contact with the rod... enough to notice. so clearancing the case... unplugging the galleys , lots of drilling and tapping for this case are in my future.

Future buys for the engine are....

-Type 3 manifold and linkage kit (CB)
-Barrel shims
-exhaust flanges for the eventual 1 5/8" exhaust build
-Pushrod tubes
-Pushrods (that will likely be late in the build)

lots and lots of clearancing , and porting and all that fun stuff are in my future. and while I'm in no hurry , I am looking forward to this.
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Brian_e
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2021 1:59 pm    Post subject: Re: 2054 Build for the Fastback Reply with quote

Clatter wrote:
Brian_e wrote:

Be careful with the CB singles and 40mm valves. I built a 2234cc with the same top end setup. The engine never went over 5300rpm. At the 10k mile mark it started missing about 4800rpm. We tried everything, and it ended up being the valve springs were shot, and the valves were floating. The springs had less tension than a stock VW spring. Beat up the valves and seats, and needed the seat re-cut.

I replaced the valve springs, with good quality singles with an inner damper, re-cut the seats, and faced the valves, and it has been perfect for another 40k since.

Brian


Was this application a bus, by any chance?

Also want to know about the springs you ended up using..


Sorry I missed this.

Here is the application.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The single springs are from Isky, and they will not work with much over .475" lift.
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VWporscheGT3
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:53 am    Post subject: Re: 2054 Build for the Fastback Reply with quote

The most annoying and nagging thing about this build has been thinking about the exhaust options ..or lack there of for type 3.... the extended length of the engine due to the fan shroud and the positioning of the bellows make it a bloody nightmare. and out of everything almost make it the most expensive investment for the engine.
when you look at a type three engine dead on from the back you will notice that the tin where the bellows attaches has that lip for the bellows to attach... that lip comes up to about even with the bottom of the bolt circle on the pulley which may mean I can get away with something. which got me thinking, which is a scary proposition all on its own.
the sidewinder type 1 exhaust.... yes i know it doesnt have the length to come out far enough from the fan housing... but what if.... and since we would be adding the same length to all four tubes, I made spacers that bring it out and away from the shroud... take a gander

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
:credit to alstrup on this photo

that loop on the right may need to be modified as well as making a heat sheild... but if I am just useing spacers and lengthening the runner length on all four tubes i shouldn't create a massive imbalance (although i know I dont know how this will effect the overall effectiveness of the system.)
since a generic black coated version of the system can be had for a little over 260... this might be an option to try and if it doesnt look like i can do anything with it then i can turn around and sell it (before modifying that loop on the right side)

what do you guys think ? am i losing my mind?


been working on case massaging and clearancing so far, have some pictures soon
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 11:49 am    Post subject: Re: 2054 Build for the Fastback Reply with quote

You’re building a 1 5/8” set of heater boxes, right?
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VWporscheGT3
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 1:07 pm    Post subject: Re: 2054 Build for the Fastback Reply with quote

Clatter wrote:
You’re building a 1 5/8” set of heater boxes, right?


yes sir, if i need to chop cut weld the box tin i am going to remove from a set I have than so be it... winters get to cold here, spring mornings can suck... so i need heater boxes.

if someone were to accuse me of being a hodge podger.... yeah... thats me.
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