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bwaii Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2021 Posts: 23 Location: Brazil
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Posted: Sun May 30, 2021 4:24 am Post subject: 3rd gear still popping out |
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So 3rd started popping out suddenly and rather dramatically even on smooth roads and moderate acceleration. I ordered some parts online and took it apart. I ended up replacing 3rd and 4th gears, slider and body (complete), and fork, plus reverse gear/fork and the double pinion bearing and the primary needle bearing. The nose case was worn at the bearing so I put a bolt and washer there as I had seen online. (All anyone has to do is say Porsche did it and every one copies it.)
Had it put back together and adjusted, installed it and it still pops out pretty much as before. Replaced all 3 engine mounts and the nosecone bushings. Didn't help. Took it out and disassembled it and the mechanic can't find anything wrong. There is some axial play in the big bearing at the nut on the input shft, But I'd think that would jump 4th not 3rd.
There are some comments that the 3-4 slider has a right side, but I've watched several hours of videos on this trans and can't find any evidence it applies to mine - though I might flip it anyway. It's a Brazilian bug swing axle. Oh, and I bought almost all original VW parts.
Any thoughts from the tranny-pros? |
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VW_Jimbo Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2016 Posts: 9879 Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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Posted: Sun May 30, 2021 8:01 am Post subject: Re: 3rd gear still popping out |
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What did your oil look like before disassembly? Smell like?
Did you, or can you take pictures of the worn parts?
What did the gears look like? Both shafts.
Did you replace the synchros as well? What about the hub?
What did the shafts look like? Any wear?
And finally, the easiest one. Maybe your shifter is not allowing for full engagement. Maybe you could try adjusting the shifter a little further back towards the rear of the car. That should move the entire pattern back a tiny amount, allowing 1 & 3 a little bit more travel if needed. _________________ Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
TDCTDI wrote: |
Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
67rustavenger wrote: |
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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bwaii Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2021 Posts: 23 Location: Brazil
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Posted: Sun May 30, 2021 9:24 am Post subject: Re: 3rd gear still popping out |
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The oil was normal, though it has been replaced several times due to leaks and whatnot. The gear didn't look that bad. Some wear on the splines, but not as bad as I expected. Which implies that the root problem is elsewhere. The only part that was fairly bad (loose) was the pinion double bearing.
4th was replaced only because it had been cut and the slider was new. All synchros were replaced as well as 3rd 4th gears, slider, hub and fork. These were all original VW. |
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Multi69s Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006 Posts: 5360 Location: Lefty, CA
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bwaii Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2021 Posts: 23 Location: Brazil
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Posted: Mon May 31, 2021 4:48 pm Post subject: Re: 3rd gear still popping out |
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Yes the shop has a jig. It's an old tranny with cutouts.
We've opened it up again and everything still looks good. The adjustments were OK. There is more play in the larger, ball bearing on the primary shaft than I would like. Also the bolt alone didn't hold it. I found a used shift housing that hasn't worn out at the bearing and I swapped the bearing for one with less slop.
The housing is actually out of a car that used the air cooled VW engine in a front-wheel drive configuration. Kind of cool. I probably won't be able to run it until Wed. |
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bwaii Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2021 Posts: 23 Location: Brazil
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Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 5:40 pm Post subject: Re: 3rd gear still popping out |
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Well, now I'm bummed. Replaced the last parts that I thought might have been causing the problem but its still jumping. |
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VW_Jimbo Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2016 Posts: 9879 Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 5:50 pm Post subject: Re: 3rd gear still popping out |
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That sucks!
Synchros and the 3,4 hub and slider were replaced?
You adjusted the linkage to perfection?
The mounts are all in good shape? You inspected them closely? _________________ Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
TDCTDI wrote: |
Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
67rustavenger wrote: |
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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goober Samba Member
Joined: May 03, 2003 Posts: 1184
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Posted: Tue Jun 01, 2021 8:58 pm Post subject: Re: 3rd gear still popping out |
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Not a tranny-pro but I have a thought.
"There is more play in the larger, ball bearing on the primary shaft than I would like."
I have an IRS and have experienced jumping out of 2nd gear because of worn input shaft ball-bearings.
Do you hear a loud 'gurrring sound' in any particular gear?
Don't know about swing-axles or jumping out of 3rd and 4th. (I've always eyeballed and button-down shift forks in neutral centering between the gears)
I'd replace the input shaft ball-bearing and give that a try. It has a hard time getting oil and is sensitive to grit and dirt. IMO, it's the one weak link in a stock box and setup. |
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bwaii Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2021 Posts: 23 Location: Brazil
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Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 3:11 am Post subject: Re: 3rd gear still popping out |
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To Jim: All mounts are new (as in 2 weeks). 3rd gears, sinchro, hub and sleeve are new VW parts bought from dealerships. Linkage has been adjusted and it shifts fine and fork adjustment re-checked when we opened it the second time.
To Goober: I didn't want to wait for the bearing to arrive in the mail but I found a better used one and installed it and a new housing as it was eaten at the bearing. No difference.
Does anybody know if a housing can go "bad"? The bearing doesn't seem to have any radial movement. |
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balljoint Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2016 Posts: 164 Location: Tobago
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Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:11 am Post subject: Re: 3rd gear still popping out |
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Are you putting in the pinion shims in the jig to adjust the forks?
3/4 hub and slider has a specific was to go.
Chamfer on hub (red arrow) goes towards 3rd and line on slider (green arrow) goes towards 4th.
Also make sure the wire clip holding in the keys in the slider arrangement are offset and the ends apart the right measurement as per manual to allow proper tension on the keys. _________________ It's an ongoing journey, never forget where you came from....
65 rhd Beetle
72 rhd kombi |
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goober Samba Member
Joined: May 03, 2003 Posts: 1184
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Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:45 pm Post subject: Re: 3rd gear still popping out |
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" The nose case was worn at the bearing so I put a bolt and washer there...."
Worn a lot? Little? If I'm picturing this correctly, shifting the shaft off it's center-line can't be a good thing.
I'd probably pull the guts out one more time and shift it through the gears on a bench. I'd want to see how the gears are lining up in their respective gear.
Could you just be catching the two 3rd gears and the worn case is adding to the problem?
Just guessing. Something has to be causing your problem. |
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bwaii Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2021 Posts: 23 Location: Brazil
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Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:58 am Post subject: Re: 3rd gear still popping out |
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Hmmm. That's interesting. I watched hours of videos. One showed a position and others just put it together. The older sleeves here (including the one I replaced) have a ridge on one side and a VW stamp on the other. I took the tranny apart again in part to see if the sleeve was in right, but it wasn't marked. On the new parts (which are for a newer model but backwards compatible) there is no stamp or paint mark, but I was looking for a ridge and not a groove. The chamfer makes sense to guarantee the hub doesn't hit the step on the shaft, but the little groove is a bit obscure.
I didn't take the slider off the hub so springs should be as it left the factory. |
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VW_Jimbo Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2016 Posts: 9879 Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2021 7:32 am Post subject: Re: 3rd gear still popping out |
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bwaii wrote: |
I didn't take the slider off the hub so springs should be as it left the factory. |
This always scares me! I was taught to disassemble everything, clean it all spotless. Inspect it for wear and replace if wear was found. Then get everything cleaned again. Lay everything out in the order it needs to be assembled in. Then reassemble with a lubricant.
Not inspecting one or more pieces is a recipe for doing the same job twice. Take the time to go through all of it, completely. Then go through the rebuilding.
Please read my tag line! I have to relearn this philosophy every now and again. Patience is a bitch! _________________ Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
TDCTDI wrote: |
Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
67rustavenger wrote: |
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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bwaii Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2021 Posts: 23 Location: Brazil
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Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:55 am Post subject: Re: 3rd gear still popping out |
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True, but remember, this was a new from the VW factory in the box part. I sometimes have a bad habit of buying something new, taking it apart to see how it works and not putting it back together right or breaking it in the process - with no warranty! It came assembled and lubed and I installed it that way. At least no one can say I inverted internal parts.
The re-used 1st/2nd parts were removed and inspected |
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Bruce Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003 Posts: 17273 Location: Left coast, Canada
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Posted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 7:51 pm Post subject: Re: 3rd gear still popping out |
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How much wear is there in the 3-4 shift rod bore in the gear carrier? _________________
overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote: |
..... a steering wheel made from a mastadon tusk..... |
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bwaii Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2021 Posts: 23 Location: Brazil
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Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:50 am Post subject: Re: 3rd gear still popping out |
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"How much wear is there in the 3-4 shift rod bore in the gear carrier?"
There is a little movement and this is my latest suspicion. Not only is there a little movement, but it seems to twist, or lean the slider. I also noticed today when I dissmounted it again (I'm getting good at it), that the wear on the 3 side of the new fork is un-even. |
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bwaii Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2021 Posts: 23 Location: Brazil
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Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:54 am Post subject: Re: 3rd gear still popping out |
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balljoint wrote: |
3/4 hub and slider has a specific was to go.
Chamfer on hub (red arrow) goes towards 3rd and line on slider (green arrow) goes towards 4th. |
My slider comes with no paint or markings that I can find. I just opened it again to make sure. I haven't put it in the press, but I assume the hub does. I have read that the new parts are made with cuts on both sides so it can go either way. |
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VW_Jimbo Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2016 Posts: 9879 Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:40 am Post subject: Re: 3rd gear still popping out |
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You should go over to the performance section. Or you could try PMing. There are a few transmission gurus over there. MCMScot is the one that I have used. He has a nice shop, he is truly talented by he is rough around the edges. You will need to warm him up, so tell him Jimbo sent you his way! That way he takes you seriously. Then, ask him in an educated fashion. He will give you his 2 cents. And take his word for what he says. He has seen the inside of more transmissions than most guys anywhere!
Good luck! _________________ Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
TDCTDI wrote: |
Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
67rustavenger wrote: |
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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bwaii Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2021 Posts: 23 Location: Brazil
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Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2021 3:47 pm Post subject: Re: 3rd gear still popping out |
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thanks. I posted there. I'll PM MCMScot as a last resort as some don't like that from strangers, especially if you haven't done your homework first. |
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balljoint Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2016 Posts: 164 Location: Tobago
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Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 7:03 am Post subject: Re: 3rd gear still popping out |
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bwaii wrote: |
balljoint wrote: |
3/4 hub and slider has a specific was to go.
Chamfer on hub (red arrow) goes towards 3rd and line on slider (green arrow) goes towards 4th. |
My slider comes with no paint or markings that I can find. I just opened it again to make sure. I haven't put it in the press, but I assume the hub does. I have read that the new parts are made with cuts on both sides so it can go either way. |
If I remember correctly the line on the slider indicates cut back on the engagement teeth, although mine only had the line on one side but cut back on both sides. Not 100% sure.
The chamfer on the hub is crucial though as it determines the depth it is pressed in.
Surprised not many of the other tranny guys have responded though as Scott isn't here to scare them off _________________ It's an ongoing journey, never forget where you came from....
65 rhd Beetle
72 rhd kombi |
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