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fl59bug
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Joined: November 23, 2005
Posts: 1976
Location: North Carolina
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 Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:22 pm Post subject: How can I stop installing distributor gear 180 off? |
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I finally got my WW Okrasa 36hp engine test fired and ran in the cam at about 2100 rpm for the required 20 minutes, after 3 days of nonsense.
For the 2nd time I installed my distributor gear 180 degrees out, the first time being back when I got my big bore 40hp running again after having its exhaust valve guides replaced.
Once I switched #1 and #3 plug wires, and #2 with #4, it fired right up. I swear every time I put the distributor gear in I do so with #1 at TDC, the crank pulley notch aligned with the case split and the small offset in the gear closest to the crank pulley. No matter though, I always install it backwards. What am I missing?
Thanks for any patient answers to help a dummy out  |
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Glenn 
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76909
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:26 pm Post subject: Re: How can I stop installing distributor gear 180 off? |
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You're Installing it when the engine is at tdc on #3
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
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evanfrucht
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Joined: July 24, 2016
Posts: 2180
Location: Laurel Canyon, CA
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:28 pm Post subject: Re: How can I stop installing distributor gear 180 off? |
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Yep nothing else to do. You just have to make sure you are at #1 with both valves closed.
I think it might be a curse 
Just switch the distributor 180. Take off the little spring clip and pin and then rotate the actuall bottom of the distributor.
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1967 Bug ( the daily rod )
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Chickensoup
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Joined: January 06, 2018
Posts: 5368
Location: Good Hope, GA
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:04 pm Post subject: Re: How can I stop installing distributor gear 180 off? |
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how? well you spin it 180 degrees from your current position 
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slalombuggy
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Joined: July 17, 2010
Posts: 9145
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:31 pm Post subject: Re: How can I stop installing distributor gear 180 off? |
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| Before you install it rotate the bottom end till the heels of both the cam lobes are facing cylinder 1 then put the distributor in with the drive when you are installing it and make sure the rotor is pointing at number 1 |
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Zundfolge1432
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Joined: June 13, 2004
Posts: 12467
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:39 pm Post subject: Re: How can I stop installing distributor gear 180 off? |
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Very very very difficult to comprehend and visualize but if you were at TDC on #1 what would happen next in that cylinder? If you said #1 exhaust valve would open and you’d be right because it’s a 4 stroke engine. So if you thought you were on #1 just watch #1 exhaust valve it would open turning clockwise. If you don’t see this you are on #3 and you could turn the crank pulley one complete turn in either direction to be back on #1. This is heavy shit.
If you can get this you’ll be able to spot distributor drive gears installed 180 out and distributor dog installed 180 out. These sorts of realizations come from listening to Bohemian Rhapsody and staring at the engine in short block form. Ask me how I know. |
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spencerfvee
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Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 3071
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| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 5:21 am Post subject: Re: How can I stop installing distributor gear 180 off? |
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| just move the plug wires around till the motor fires . when i worked at a vw dealer ship and we installed AC on bugs we had to move the timing gear so the dizy vac. pot would clear the AC pump spencerfvee |
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Emeraldlion
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Joined: April 13, 2005
Posts: 743
Location: Texarkana, TX
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| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 5:48 am Post subject: Re: How can I stop installing distributor gear 180 off? |
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| Zundfolge1432 wrote: |
Very very very difficult to comprehend and visualize but if you were at TDC on #1 what would happen next in that cylinder? If you said #1 exhaust valve would open and you’d be right because it’s a 4 stroke engine. So if you thought you were on #1 just watch #1 exhaust valve it would open turning clockwise. If you don’t see this you are on #3 and you could turn the crank pulley one complete turn in either direction to be back on #1. This is heavy shit.
If you can get this you’ll be able to spot distributor drive gears installed 180 out and distributor dog installed 180 out. These sorts of realizations come from listening to Bohemian Rhapsody and staring at the engine in short block form. Ask me how I know. |
My dad taught me this for finding true firing stroke. Taught me that you had to think about what is going to happen immediately after both valves are closed in a firing cylinder. Took me a good 15 minutes or so of sitting in front of the engine turning back and forth and think of firing order, spark and what was happening.
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txoval
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Posts: 3552
Location: The Woodlands, TX
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| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 6:17 am Post subject: Re: How can I stop installing distributor gear 180 off? |
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Installing the distributor drive and distributor is the first thing I do when building an engine.
Turn the rotor to #1 (cap off) and drop in the crank with #1 at TDC. If you line up the dots on the cam/crank gear you’ll have it right every time.
As said above, the quick check is to slightly turn the crank clockwise and you should see the #1 exhaust cam lobe turn to open the exhaust valve. |
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runamoc
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Location: 37.5N 77.1W
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| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:18 am Post subject: Re: How can I stop installing distributor gear 180 off? |
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I 'acquired' an engine that had the drive gear 180 out. So as not to mess up the #3 cylinder retard (maybe, maybe not, I go with the distributor has it). I took the retaining spring off of the bottom of the distributor, pulled the pin out, rotated the offset gear 180, put the pin and spring back in. Problem for me solved.
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mark tucker
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| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:46 am Post subject: Re: How can I stop installing distributor gear 180 off? |
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| runamoc wrote: |
| I 'acquired' an engine that had the drive gear 180 out. So as not to mess up the #3 cylinder retard (maybe, maybe not, I go with the distributor has it). I took the retaining spring off of the bottom of the distributor, pulled the pin out, rotated the offset gear 180, put the pin and spring back in. Problem for me solved. |
wow, a true thinker has showed up!!! this is a good way to do a quick fix or just move the plug wires. but yes you do need to learn/payy attn on where/when to install it so it's in the right place. personaly I dont mind where it is as I know how to check & wire it. I do put it where it's spussposed to be ehen building but when finished and all the shit installed that may not always work...well not always on the ones with vac addvancetard pod on them. so you can do what you think is needed when building but somethuing might crop up. be prepaired. most dont have issues but I dont build those usualy..and I usualy dont have the pods to worry about but...there are always the exception. I made dist gear plug's many years ago, they held in the dist gear while building. witch made it eazy to just lay in crank&cam & dist gear in 1 half the case.and never worry about it.pull out plug when ready to put in dist.no worries abouit the gear climbing and effing up the brass gear. they were lathe trimmed pvc pipe with groove cut for oring to hold it in. simple.I made about 20 and gave them away. |
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fl59bug
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005
Posts: 1976
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:14 pm Post subject: Re: How can I stop installing distributor gear 180 off? |
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Thanks guys, I'll put these tips into practice, especially the exhaust valve procedure.
Ted |
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evanfrucht
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Joined: July 24, 2016
Posts: 2180
Location: Laurel Canyon, CA
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| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 2:09 pm Post subject: Re: How can I stop installing distributor gear 180 off? |
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| mark tucker wrote: |
| runamoc wrote: |
| I 'acquired' an engine that had the drive gear 180 out. So as not to mess up the #3 cylinder retard (maybe, maybe not, I go with the distributor has it). I took the retaining spring off of the bottom of the distributor, pulled the pin out, rotated the offset gear 180, put the pin and spring back in. Problem for me solved. |
wow, a true thinker has showed up!!! this is a good way to do a quick fix or just move the plug wires. but yes you do need to learn/payy attn on where/when to install it so it's in the right place. personaly I dont mind where it is as I know how to check & wire it. I do put it where it's spussposed to be ehen building but when finished and all the shit installed that may not always work...well not always on the ones with vac addvancetard pod on them. so you can do what you think is needed when building but somethuing might crop up. be prepaired. most dont have issues but I dont build those usualy..and I usualy dont have the pods to worry about but...there are always the exception. I made dist gear plug's many years ago, they held in the dist gear while building. witch made it eazy to just lay in crank&cam & dist gear in 1 half the case.and never worry about it.pull out plug when ready to put in dist.no worries abouit the gear climbing and effing up the brass gear. they were lathe trimmed pvc pipe with groove cut for oring to hold it in. simple.I made about 20 and gave them away. |
Yes that's what I meant when I said take off the spring clip and pin, then just rotate the distributor shaft 180... and leave the drive inside the case alone.
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1964 Fury Wagon ( the pavement shredder )
Last edited by evanfrucht on Sun Jun 13, 2021 2:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76909
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 2:19 pm Post subject: Re: How can I stop installing distributor gear 180 off? |
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| txoval wrote: |
| Installing the distributor drive and distributor is the first thing I do when building an engine. |
^^^^^^
THIS
Install the driveshaft and then put a distributor in and turn the rotor so it's pointing to the #1 mark. Drop the crankshaft in with the #1 journal up. Now rotate the crank so you can drop the camshaft in with the timing dots lined up.
That's how you do it.
Rotating the drive dog on the bottom is a bodge. And it will screw up the next owner or whoever does the next tuneup.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
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evanfrucht
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Joined: July 24, 2016
Posts: 2180
Location: Laurel Canyon, CA
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| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 2:26 pm Post subject: Re: How can I stop installing distributor gear 180 off? |
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| Glenn wrote: |
| txoval wrote: |
| Installing the distributor drive and distributor is the first thing I do when building an engine. |
^^^^^^
THIS
Install the driveshaft and then put a distributor in and turn the rotor so it's pointing to the #1 mark. Drop the crankshaft in with the #1 journal up. Now rotate the crank so you can drop the camshaft in with the timing dots lined up.
That's how you do it.
Rotating the drive dog on the bottom is a bodge. And it will screw up the next owner or whoever does the next tuneup. |
True but if it's your own car, do your own maintenance, and you don't plan to sell it anytime soon... No one will know or care expect maybe you. It's easy to reverse too. It's not some permanent mod, it takes about 10 seconds to change.
And yes if you do sell the engine or distributor this is the kind of thing you inform the new owner of... if you give a shit or remember (most people don't  )
Or go fiddling around inside your new engine and pray you don't drop the shims...
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1964 Fury Wagon ( the pavement shredder ) |
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bsairhead
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Posts: 3564
Location: viroqua wi.
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| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:17 pm Post subject: Re: How can I stop installing distributor gear 180 off? |
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| Was anyone had a distributor with a retarded lobe? Or is it just a myth? Glenn have you found one in your decades of experience? |
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Zundfolge1432
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Joined: June 13, 2004
Posts: 12467
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| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:22 pm Post subject: Re: How can I stop installing distributor gear 180 off? |
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| evanfrucht wrote: |
| Glenn wrote: |
| txoval wrote: |
| Installing the distributor drive and distributor is the first thing I do when building an engine. |
^^^^^^
THIS
Install the driveshaft and then put a distributor in and turn the rotor so it's pointing to the #1 mark. Drop the crankshaft in with the #1 journal up. Now rotate the crank so you can drop the camshaft in with the timing dots lined up.
That's how you do it.
Rotating the drive dog on the bottom is a bodge. And it will screw up the next owner or whoever does the next tuneup. |
True but if it's your own car, do your own maintenance, and you don't plan to sell it anytime soon... No one will know or care expect maybe you. It's easy to reverse too. It's not some permanent mod, it takes about 10 seconds to change.
And yes if you do sell the engine or distributor this is the kind of thing you inform the new owner of... if you give a shit or remember (most people don't )
Or go fiddling around inside your new engine and pray you don't drop the shims... |
Personally you take a chance buying secondhand. I’ve had lots of parts people swore up and down were good, most recently I got bitten by a shitty chrome manifold that was bent. The person that sold me that had no idea or maybe they did who knows. Take some pride in your work. There is a way to insure you don’t drop shims but you won’t find that in the manuals. |
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chrisflstf
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Joined: February 10, 2004
Posts: 3439
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:37 pm Post subject: Re: How can I stop installing distributor gear 180 off? |
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How about have a pic of proper shaft in a case install available for reference. I have put 3 in backwards in my life, 2 of which i supposedly paid attention to, and then put them in the wrong way anyway! Swapping the drive dog is ok, but there is the risk of the pin not moving easily, or the hammer misses. Pulling the drive gear up and not losing shims is always risky as well. Swapping the wires is the easiest and quickest fix.
I dont like dropping the crank in a case with the dist drive gear already there. Way to easy to ding the brass gear. Easier to control the small gear to install than holding a 40 lb crank.rod assy in the air and lowering away! |
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76909
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:43 pm Post subject: Re: How can I stop installing distributor gear 180 off? |
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| chrisflstf wrote: |
| than holding a 40 lb crank.rod assy in the air and lowering away! |
You need to get stronger.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
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evanfrucht
Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2016
Posts: 2180
Location: Laurel Canyon, CA
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| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:48 pm Post subject: Re: How can I stop installing distributor gear 180 off? |
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| Zundfolge1432 wrote: |
| evanfrucht wrote: |
| Glenn wrote: |
| txoval wrote: |
| Installing the distributor drive and distributor is the first thing I do when building an engine. |
^^^^^^
THIS
Install the driveshaft and then put a distributor in and turn the rotor so it's pointing to the #1 mark. Drop the crankshaft in with the #1 journal up. Now rotate the crank so you can drop the camshaft in with the timing dots lined up.
That's how you do it.
Rotating the drive dog on the bottom is a bodge. And it will screw up the next owner or whoever does the next tuneup. |
True but if it's your own car, do your own maintenance, and you don't plan to sell it anytime soon... No one will know or care expect maybe you. It's easy to reverse too. It's not some permanent mod, it takes about 10 seconds to change.
And yes if you do sell the engine or distributor this is the kind of thing you inform the new owner of... if you give a shit or remember (most people don't )
Or go fiddling around inside your new engine and pray you don't drop the shims... |
Personally you take a chance buying secondhand. I’ve had lots of parts people swore up and down were good, most recently I got bitten by a shitty chrome manifold that was bent. The person that sold me that had no idea or maybe they did who knows. Take some pride in your work. There is a way to insure you don’t drop shims but you won’t find that in the manuals. |
I agree the best way is to have it correct, but it will still function and work perfectly mechanically speaking, was my point. You can even pretend that's they way it's supposed to be if you want
And, yes I also agree the techniques listed are all good ways to make sure you set it correct initially. You need to be on TDC for #1, it's that simple. There are a few ways to verify it.
And since you mention it, how do you guarentee the shims don't fall off the bottom of the shaft when removing it? I know you can use a screwdriver or long rod to set them in place without dropping them on install. But what if the shims stick to the bottom of the drive and then fall off after you have it pulled up half way?
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