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NAZglen Samba Member
Joined: October 07, 2019 Posts: 122 Location: Prescott Valley, AZ.
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Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 9:49 pm Post subject: CLASS 11 donor |
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i am looking at a 69 bug donor for a Class 11 Look-A-Like. Possibly moving towards a Class 11 build. I have not looked at it in person yet.
The current owner got it in a trade. He says it is a 1776. A picture of the engine compartment shows it is a dual port with a stock carb, what looks like a 009, a blue coil and maybe a header. It is not running so I cannot hear it run or drive it to guess if it has a cam.
Would a Weber Progressive be to much for a 1776 with a stock cam? |
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I Ride Sand Samba Member
Joined: June 07, 2012 Posts: 567 Location: utah
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Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 11:14 pm Post subject: Re: CLASS 11 donor |
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the weber progressive I had on my rail was a total POS offroad anytime it got a little rough. It was super easy to slosh gas from the float bowl out and into the carb. I had to tune the secondary stupid rich to get it to not fall flat on its face every time I stomped on the throttle. it would work with the right carb setup, but I was happier with a solex carb on a stock intake on a similar sized engine (1679 with a mild cam). offroad throttle response is SUPER useful, and a mechanical secondary progressive isn't very responsive. with no accelerator pump on the secondary, they just suck. _________________ Just a dirty coyote playing in the desert.
now where'd that dirty badger run off to? |
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NAZglen Samba Member
Joined: October 07, 2019 Posts: 122 Location: Prescott Valley, AZ.
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Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:24 am Post subject: Re: CLASS 11 donor |
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Thanks for the info. It has been sitting in Northern AZ for 2 years. If I buy it I will have a lot to do just to get it started.
Follow my procedure and chime in if you have any suggestions. It has been decades since I had a Bug.
-First, get a breaker bar on the pulley bolt and see if it will turn. A couple of turns to break up (and hopefully not crack or break any rings) two years of sitting should be good. If it is seized... the price goes way down.
-If it turns by hand, get a battery in it and check the compression. No need to go any further if it has a dead cylinder.
-A quick and dirty trick is to pull the coil wire, turn it over and listen. A starter is a motor and wants to turn at the same speed. So if the compression is the same, when it turns over, it will sound even from cylinder to cylinder. If it hits a cylinder with lower compression it will turn faster when it gets to that cylinder. Vice versa for a cylinder with higher compression.
-At this point negotiate!!!
-Once I trailer it home, Start with the fuel system.
-First, pump acetone or lacquer thinner through the gas line to clean it out. I was thinking of buying a electric fuel pump, 20 feet of hose, a quart container and just cycle it for 10 or 20 minutes.
-Then replace the gas tank. Cleaning it out is much more of a chore than just bolting in a clean one.
-Next, new gas hose, fuel pump and filter.
-Next, rebuild the stock carb that is on it now. Maybe be lazy and buy a 30/31 PICT3 from ACN.net?
-Fuel system is done at this point.
-Change the engine oil. Straight 30 weight for the initial start up.
-It has what looks like a 009 on it. Replace the points and condenser, replace the old blue coil it has on it now, replace the plugs and wires. Static time it.
-Pull the brake drums and check the shoes and wheel cylinders. Bleed the brakes until I see clean fluid.
-Adjust the clutch if needed.
This should get me driving it around the neighborhood.
Then the real work starts. |
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L5wolvesf Samba Member
Joined: August 17, 2009 Posts: 196 Location: Northern AZ
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Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:19 am Post subject: Re: CLASS 11 donor |
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NAZglen wrote: |
i am looking at a 69 bug donor for a Class 11 Look-A-Like. Possibly moving towards a Class 11 build. I have not looked at it in person yet.
The current owner got it in a trade. He says it is a 1776. A picture of the engine compartment shows it is a dual port with a stock carb, what looks like a 009, a blue coil and maybe a header. It is not running so I cannot hear it run or drive it to guess if it has a cam.
Would a Weber Progressive be to much for a 1776 with a stock cam? |
The 32/36 should be good but requires tuning which many people do not do or do incorrectly.
However, if you are going to build an actual racing Class 11 when I raced mine the Weber and the 1776 we not legal But rules could/might have changed. _________________ Amonster Motorsports
SNORE # 1196 sponsored by:
- www.356carburetorrescue.com/home.html
- Barnwerks Fabrication & Welding
- ArtSpeed Graphics
“Racing's important to men who do it well. When you're racing, it's life. Anything that happens before or after is just waiting.”
S. McQueen |
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L5wolvesf Samba Member
Joined: August 17, 2009 Posts: 196 Location: Northern AZ
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Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:25 am Post subject: Re: CLASS 11 donor |
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NAZglen wrote: |
-First, get a breaker bar on the pulley bolt and see if it will turn. A couple of turns to break up (and hopefully not crack or break any rings) two years of sitting should be good. If it is seized... the price goes way down. |
Generally, before turning a motor that has been sitting, I shoot some PB Blaster or WD40 or AFT etc and let it sit for a while. Not sure how that would work with a horizontal motor. Then gently in small increments rock the breaker bar left to right. _________________ Amonster Motorsports
SNORE # 1196 sponsored by:
- www.356carburetorrescue.com/home.html
- Barnwerks Fabrication & Welding
- ArtSpeed Graphics
“Racing's important to men who do it well. When you're racing, it's life. Anything that happens before or after is just waiting.”
S. McQueen |
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NAZglen Samba Member
Joined: October 07, 2019 Posts: 122 Location: Prescott Valley, AZ.
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Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 2:18 pm Post subject: Re: CLASS 11 donor |
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I have read the SCORE Class 11 rules and know the Weber and 1776 would not be legal. I have a Weber Progressive sitting in the garage and was wondering if it would be to much for a non cammed 1776.
I am more interested in getting it running first. Since it has what looks like a stock Solex. I was going to bolt on a 30PICT to get it on the road.
The previous owner only says it is a 1776. He said he doesnt know much more than that. There is a disconnected SCAT breather and a non ducted 36HP doghouse shroud. So some work has been done to it. Just dont know what.
Agreed on spraying it with WD40. But since it is a flat 4, I dont think it will do much. If I am lucky and slowly work it back and forth with a breaker bar i am hoping it will spin. |
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weasel_ugs Samba Member
Joined: March 16, 2012 Posts: 721 Location: Prescott Valley,Az.
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Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 6:13 pm Post subject: Re: CLASS 11 donor |
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The 32-36 would not be too big for a 1776.
I have a 32-36 on a mild cam 1600, Im really considering putting a 34PICT on it because Im tired of trying to tune it. The last 1600 I had ran great with a
34 PICT3
Oh, and howdy neighbor. |
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DancingOnTheAshes Samba Member
Joined: August 05, 2017 Posts: 48 Location: Sweden
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dustymojave Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007 Posts: 5802 Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:14 pm Post subject: Re: CLASS 11 donor |
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For racing a Class 11 currently, if your compression ratio is 8.0 or lower, you can use a Weber 44IDF or equivalent, like EMPI HPMX (I have one on my 1915 and I'm quite happy with it, even if it IS EMPI brand). There are some Chinese copies for sale on ebay for about $100 that come out of the box with some sloppy assembly workmanship, but with a little care prepping them, they have potential to work as well as a real Weber. The intake manifold will cost much more than the carb, unless you score on a used one.
To get things rolling, you could buy an EMPI 30PICT-1 already prepped for offroad racing, and the adapter if you have a dual port manifold. This is the correct carb to use for racing if you have higher compression ratio.
The H30/31PICT is a square bowl Solex that, like all square bowl Solexes is usually unhappy with a 009 distributor and needs the adapter to mount it on the dual port manifold just like the 30PICT-1.
The round bowl Solex carbs like the 28PICT and the 30PICT-1 are quite happy with a 009 or other non-vacuum advance distributor. The round bowl indicates a different design of the internal functions of the carb. It's not the shape of the bowl that makes it work well or not, but the shape of the bowl tells you whether the particular carb will get pissy about which distributor it's used with.
I've seen 32/36 progressive carbs that worked fairly well on a VW, but not one that worked well offroad. Like IRS said above, the float bowl vent dumps gas into the throat and makes for trouble. And they're not easy to change the vent like the 30PICT-1 is. I suggest you sell it to finance a better carb choice. Some street guys love 'em. _________________ Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet. |
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Aerindel Samba Member
Joined: May 30, 2015 Posts: 459 Location: Western Montana
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:47 am Post subject: Re: CLASS 11 donor |
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Quote: |
I've seen 32/36 progressive carbs that worked fairly well on a VW, but not one that worked well offroad. Like IRS said above, the float bowl vent dumps gas into the throat and makes for trouble. And they're not easy to change the vent like the 30PICT-1 is. I suggest you sell it to finance a better carb choice. Some street guys love 'em.
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So what would you recommend for someone with a DP1600 who just wants a good running buggy and doesn't want to spend a fortune or the rest of his life trying to get something to work.
I have the 32/36 and I've spend countless hours reading about how to tune them, I've fabricated intake pre heat air, I have the SVDA distributor, I've done everything so far but make a full flow pre-heat exhaust tube, which I'm about to do.
And its still never run 100% or at least what I think 100% should be. I don't need to race, I just want to stop messing with it and DRIVE the buggy instead of always being tinkering with it.
Sorry for the minor thread highjack but I'm frustrated with some things that sing the praises of the 32/36 if properly set up, while everyone else seems to dump on them...and my own lack of experience where I never know if I have a problem or my imaginatin or a simple mistake. _________________ Homemade woods/street, bug out rail. IRS, Balljoint front end. 1967 1600cc DP, Weber 32/36 progressive, tri-mil quiet pack. Rear only cutting brakes.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630046 |
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L5wolvesf Samba Member
Joined: August 17, 2009 Posts: 196 Location: Northern AZ
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:53 am Post subject: Re: CLASS 11 donor |
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Aerindel wrote: |
Quote: |
I've seen 32/36 progressive carbs that worked fairly well on a VW, but not one that worked well offroad. Like IRS said above, the float bowl vent dumps gas into the throat and makes for trouble. And they're not easy to change the vent like the 30PICT-1 is. I suggest you sell it to finance a better carb choice. Some street guys love 'em.
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So what would you recommend for someone with a DP1600 who just wants a good running buggy and doesn't want to spend a fortune or the rest of his life trying to get something to work.
I have the 32/36 and I've spend countless hours reading about how to tune them, I've fabricated intake pre heat air, I have the SVDA distributor, I've done everything so far but make a full flow pre-heat exhaust tube, which I'm about to do.
And its still never run 100% or at least what I think 100% should be. I don't need to race, I just want to stop messing with it and DRIVE the buggy instead of always being tinkering with it.
Sorry for the minor thread highjack but I'm frustrated with some things that sing the praises of the 32/36 if properly set up, while everyone else seems to dump on them...and my own lack of experience where I never know if I have a problem or my imaginatin or a simple mistake. |
To properly answer that we would need to know the starting point of your tuning, what procedures you used, the results of plug checks, what changes you made after each run. And pictures would help a lot.
Might be a good thing to start your own thread. _________________ Amonster Motorsports
SNORE # 1196 sponsored by:
- www.356carburetorrescue.com/home.html
- Barnwerks Fabrication & Welding
- ArtSpeed Graphics
“Racing's important to men who do it well. When you're racing, it's life. Anything that happens before or after is just waiting.”
S. McQueen |
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dustymojave Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007 Posts: 5802 Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:59 am Post subject: Re: CLASS 11 donor |
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Aerindel has a substantial thread about building his buggy and he talks in there quite a bit about his efforts to provide preheated intake air and such. Might be good for him to post a link to his thread.
Much of what has already been done for the Progressive will work well with a carb such as a Weber 40IDF.
A friend of mine recently bought a slightly used EMPI HPMX 40 carb with intake manifold and air cleaner for about $100. We just checked the jets and found that it had been jetted for use in a dual setup. So the wrong jetting was probably why the previous owner had ditched it.
Similar carbs can be bought brand new on ebay for about $100. They're Chinese made imitations of Webers. They're pretty good copies and can work well, just like the real deal. They can use some disassembly and cleaning up (there's a YouTube video about this) before installation, but I recommend that for installing ANY carburetor. They also may need some re-jetting, but jets are available for them (same as Weber IDF and EMPI HPMX) on Amazon and other places, you can get them elsewhere for less $ per jet, but usually shipping charges are way more than the price. So Amazon is probably the lowest total price per jet right now. Jet charts are available from EMPI and other sources if you google HPMX/Weber jetting chart. These charts will get you very close to right for your engine.
Intake manifolds for the above carbs are available brand new from EMPI dealers, but $180 is a bit steep for a manifold considering it's nearly 2x the price of the carb. VW swap meets (They should be back as of this week!), classifieds on here, and all the usual sources should provide a manifold for far less. _________________ Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet. |
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Aerindel Samba Member
Joined: May 30, 2015 Posts: 459 Location: Western Montana
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:43 pm Post subject: Re: CLASS 11 donor |
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Quote: |
Much of what has already been done for the Progressive will work well with a carb such as a Weber 40IDF.
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Thanks.
Honestly, buying a new carb and intake and starting from scratch would be a drop in the bucket compared to what I've already spent and worth it as long as I could get to the point where it 'just worked' and I could stop tinkering.
Back to your regularly scheduled programing. I just couldn't resist asking since the subject of the 'cursed' 32/36 came up. _________________ Homemade woods/street, bug out rail. IRS, Balljoint front end. 1967 1600cc DP, Weber 32/36 progressive, tri-mil quiet pack. Rear only cutting brakes.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630046 |
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NAZglen Samba Member
Joined: October 07, 2019 Posts: 122 Location: Prescott Valley, AZ.
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Posted: Sat Jun 26, 2021 6:17 am Post subject: Re: CLASS 11 donor |
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I just went to look at a 75 standard can last night. He was asking 7600. All the cosmetic work has shoddy, cheap orange peeled paint job, cheap "new" wrinkled door panels, sloppy "new" headliner, loose fitting "new" seat covers, gutter was rusted away and painted over where the PO had a roof rack. Compression sounded good. He had a rebuilt 30 on it with what looked like a 010 distributor. The only good thing was front and rear looked like it had never been hit when looking in the trunk and engine bay. The price seemed pretty high considering all the sloppy work.
The guy did have a 62 single cab he was working on. Pretty rare! Also a stripped 71 shell.
Been looking for weeks. Might have to be patient and look for months to find the right donor.
Gonna go look at the 69 that has not run in 2 years. It has so many unknowns. Since it will not start, I might as well consider the engine and trans as shot. |
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