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you were to build a stock type 1 vw motor to go 200,000 miles
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spencerfvee
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 7:10 pm    Post subject: Re: If you were to build a stock vw motor to last 200,000 miles Reply with quote

nextgen wrote:
Bugguy you are 100% correct in what you are saying. Yes the guy that started this post did not mention how much he was willing to spend to achieve his 200k plus good performance goal.

What you said is not cheap. an unlimited amount of money anything can be made.

My point was and is, the T-4 has done all and more of what he wants.

Actually I would say for the cost of what it would cost to built that T-1, a 150hp T-4 could be built that that can well exceed the 200 k goal with a heck of alot more power then the T-1

If the project is just to see if a T-1 can be built that can go 200k and have power, Ok I understand.
........................................................................ what part of i dont want a 150hp type4 motor with dual carbs . in a bug i dont care about a type 4 motors . this forum is for a type 1 build motor build got it spencerfvee
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spencerfvee
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 7:22 pm    Post subject: Re: If you were to build a stock vw motor to last 200,000 miles Reply with quote

67rustavenger wrote:
Matthew wrote:

I think Spencer cleared it up along (after the original post) the way that the discussion is about type 1 VW.


I totally agree.
For some unknown reason folks keep brining up the T4 as a great long living engine. WE GET IT!
But this thread is about a T1 200K single port.

Not some 1.7, 1.8, 2.0 Porsche wanna be poser!
................................................these type4 people will never get it . i dont think they know how to read this post was for a type1 motor build . lol lol type 4 motors dont last any longer than a type1 motor the type 4 motors drop ex valves the guides ware out just like a type1 motor they leak oil and they sound like shit lol lol there big and heavy lol spencerfvee
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Chickensoup
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 7:23 pm    Post subject: Re: If you were to build a stock vw motor to last 200,000 miles Reply with quote

bugguy1967 wrote:
This topic kinda went off on a tangent. I think there are a lot of areas on the 1600 that can be improved-upon that will improve reliability, which in-turn will boost power because of increased efficiency. I generally look at the engine on a component level, to try and improve every major part:

Assume we'll take advantage of any coatings that will reduce friction or lower temperatures.

Crankshaft - it needs more journal overlap to make the part more rigid. 5000 rpm doesn't necessarily warrant counterweights, IMO. What it needs is larger mains. This first item on the list may not make any short-term power benefits, but your bearings will thank you. While on the crank, a tighter balancing tolerance would do wonders for longevity and power. 8 dowels might not be a bad idea either.

Con-rods - they're okay. Not too heavy. Relatively strong. The only thing I might want to do is lower the stroke/rod ratio. With the stock pistons, it might become an issue. But my engine wouldn't use stock pistons anyway.

Flywheel - I believe relieving a few pounds off the flywheel would make it easier to accelerate, so the user could use less throttle to get up to speed. Using a smaller % of power over the life of the engine could increase its' reliability.

There may be an advantage to sealing that snout area with a sand seal, and improving crankcase pressure evacuation. Both the T4 and WBX used seals.

Go back to copper thrusts!

Crankcase - through bolts with proper, wide washers on faced surfaces. All removable galley plugs. Full flow would not only add a real filter, but allow a longer period for any oil foaming to simmer down. Oil holes perfectly aligned to both the bearings and pump. A thinline sump has more pros than cons. My vote is for 10mm studs over 8mm for longevity.

Cylinders/pistons - probably the most overlooked component. A truly round barrel, with the correct hone for the rings being used improves power, sealing, temperatures, engine life, etc. Torque plate-honed barrels, modern 85.5 +/-.5 pistons with a smaller compression heights, lighter, narrower pins, thinner rings with less tension would be the single best improvement overall. Incorporate a dome to improve mixture motion and gas evacuation, and your power could be up over 10% and responsiveness would improve from the reduced weight and friction. Run tight tolerances and you'll consume less oil too.

Camshaft - go with a grinder that can make a modern ramp design that would take advantage of whatever modifications you're performing, whether it be VE improvers, or scavenging improvers. Doesn't need to lift more, especially if the other mods are helping to raise VE.

Pushrods - fine as-is. If they were a bit shorter, they'd flex less...

Heads - I'm sure there'd be a dozen different approaches, but having a consistent cross sectional diameter, high velocity, an excellent valve job, no shrouding and smooth transitions should be on everyone's list. The casting should have a thick ceiling for strength, like most new heads have. A better seat material like Moldstar 90, or other bronze/copper material would reduce cracking because of the smaller interference-fit and expansion rates. It also transfers heat and is quieter than steel. Coupled with high quality SS valves and single-grooves, you'll have a long-lasting combo. I like Mexico stock springs. I've taken a set to 6,000 rpm many times and they lasted 100,000 miles. For longevity, chromoly retainers. Due to the modifications to improve friction and cooling, an engine like this might want to run higher than 8.5:1, even with a 4,500 rpm cam.

Rockers - besides shaft upgrades and good swivels, the rockers themselves are gold. I've compared both styles of rockers against each other, and for this purpose, OEM style has more benefits - mainly valve stem oiling.

Induction - small ITBs that have a tuned length to boost torque at cruising speed.

Exhaust - likely a 35mm 4-1 header, stainless to avoid sucking in rust flakes during startup. Long primaries. Exhaust-driven crankcase scavenge.

Ignition - should probably eliminate the distributor altogether and go crank-fired. I know the counter arguments, but if you drive anything modern, then your argument really isn't valid.


heres the best post yet!

this thread has...

grammer police
1600 fanboys
type 4 fanboys
some really bad advice
some good ideas
some excellent advice

so a little bit of everything. i cant be the only one thinking this right?
well it is the internets after all.


some food for your brain...

an engine/motor that buguy listed, if you built it yourself, would cost maybe 3kish with the custom machine work.

a type 4 with the same level of "upgrades/work" would run??? hopesfully less that Jake raibes(srry if i spelt that wrong) engines Shocked
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spencerfvee
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 7:40 pm    Post subject: Re: If you were to build a stock vw motor to last 200,000 miles Reply with quote

Chickensoup wrote:
bugguy1967 wrote:
This topic kinda went off on a tangent. I think there are a lot of areas on the 1600 that can be improved-upon that will improve reliability, which in-turn will boost power because of increased efficiency. I generally look at the engine on a component level, to try and improve every major part:

Assume we'll take advantage of any coatings that will reduce friction or lower temperatures.

Crankshaft - it needs more journal overlap to make the part more rigid. 5000 rpm doesn't necessarily warrant counterweights, IMO. What it needs is larger mains. This first item on the list may not make any short-term power benefits, but your bearings will thank you. While on the crank, a tighter balancing tolerance would do wonders for longevity and power. 8 dowels might not be a bad idea either.

Con-rods - they're okay. Not too heavy. Relatively strong. The only thing I might want to do is lower the stroke/rod ratio. With the stock pistons, it might become an issue. But my engine wouldn't use stock pistons anyway.

Flywheel - I believe relieving a few pounds off the flywheel would make it easier to accelerate, so the user could use less throttle to get up to speed. Using a smaller % of power over the life of the engine could increase its' reliability.

There may be an advantage to sealing that snout area with a sand seal, and improving crankcase pressure evacuation. Both the T4 and WBX used seals.

Go back to copper thrusts!

Crankcase - through bolts with proper, wide washers on faced surfaces. All removable galley plugs. Full flow would not only add a real filter, but allow a longer period for any oil foaming to simmer down. Oil holes perfectly aligned to both the bearings and pump. A thinline sump has more pros than cons. My vote is for 10mm studs over 8mm for longevity.

Cylinders/pistons - probably the most overlooked component. A truly round barrel, with the correct hone for the rings being used improves power, sealing, temperatures, engine life, etc. Torque plate-honed barrels, modern 85.5 +/-.5 pistons with a smaller compression heights, lighter, narrower pins, thinner rings with less tension would be the single best improvement overall. Incorporate a dome to improve mixture motion and gas evacuation, and your power could be up over 10% and responsiveness would improve from the reduced weight and friction. Run tight tolerances and you'll consume less oil too.

Camshaft - go with a grinder that can make a modern ramp design that would take advantage of whatever modifications you're performing, whether it be VE improvers, or scavenging improvers. Doesn't need to lift more, especially if the other mods are helping to raise VE.

Pushrods - fine as-is. If they were a bit shorter, they'd flex less...

Heads - I'm sure there'd be a dozen different approaches, but having a consistent cross sectional diameter, high velocity, an excellent valve job, no shrouding and smooth transitions should be on everyone's list. The casting should have a thick ceiling for strength, like most new heads have. A better seat material like Moldstar 90, or other bronze/copper material would reduce cracking because of the smaller interference-fit and expansion rates. It also transfers heat and is quieter than steel. Coupled with high quality SS valves and single-grooves, you'll have a long-lasting combo. I like Mexico stock springs. I've taken a set to 6,000 rpm many times and they lasted 100,000 miles. For longevity, chromoly retainers. Due to the modifications to improve friction and cooling, an engine like this might want to run higher than 8.5:1, even with a 4,500 rpm cam.

Rockers - besides shaft upgrades and good swivels, the rockers themselves are gold. I've compared both styles of rockers against each other, and for this purpose, OEM style has more benefits - mainly valve stem oiling.

Induction - small ITBs that have a tuned length to boost torque at cruising speed.

Exhaust - likely a 35mm 4-1 header, stainless to avoid sucking in rust flakes during startup. Long primaries. Exhaust-driven crankcase scavenge.

Ignition - should probably eliminate the distributor altogether and go crank-fired. I know the counter arguments, but if you drive anything modern, then your argument really isn't valid.


heres the best post yet!

this thread has...

grammer police
1600 fanboys
type 4 fanboys
some really bad advice
some good ideas
some excellent advice

so a little bit of everything. i cant be the only one thinking this right?
well it is the internets after all.


some food for your brain...

an engine/motor that buguy listed, if you built it yourself, would cost maybe 3kish with the custom machine work.

a type 4 with the same level of "upgrades/work" would run??? hopesfully less that Jake raibes(srry if i spelt that wrong) engines Shocked
..............................................................................................................................chicken soup i like your posts i never thought when i posted this forum that i would open a can of worms . and bring the dark side of the force .back from the dead my self i thought the type 4 motors were long gone and only lived in vw buses and 411s and 412 vws sitting in junk yards and in guys back yards lol joke guys now lets get back on how to build a TYPE1 motor that will live for 200,000 miles spencerfvee
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nextgen
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:25 pm    Post subject: Re: you were to build a stock type 1 vw motor to go 200,000 miles Reply with quote

Only a few posts up from your last post I wrote.

" If the project is just to see if a T-1 can be built that can go 200k and have power, Ok I understand. "

If you just would have read it you could have saved posts of all your B.S. hot air.
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Chickensoup
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:27 pm    Post subject: Re: you were to build a stock type 1 vw motor to go 200,000 miles Reply with quote

ok...
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'66 RIP
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Floating VW
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:49 pm    Post subject: Re: you were to build a stock type 1 vw motor to go 200,000 miles Reply with quote

My very first post on the Samba was in an old thread which had a very similar title to this one. Here's the link to it:

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0

I come in on page eight. I know it's a very long-winded post, but I suppose it's relevant, so I'll paste it again here for the ones who hate clicking on links:
Floating VW wrote:
A couple years ago, when I realized just how deep the black pit of despair that we call the VW aftermarket had become, I decided the only solution would be to build an engine that will last longer than I will, thereby avoiding any further need of said black pit. But I have to say, the biggest problem I ran into wasn’t any weak link in the type 1 engine—it was the complete lack of info/support for the project (example: have you noticed how this thread has been around for 7 years now and still there’s nothing more in it than a few modest suggestions, a bit of anecdotal evidence showing proof of concept, and a LOT of nay-sayers saying it can’t be done?).
You see, here’s how it shakes down: if you ask the good people of VW land what they want out of their cars, 97% of them can be summed up with three words: “more”, “power” and “cheap” (yes, I know “more cheap” isn’t grammatically correct, but hey, I thought this was the samba). You could argue that “mileage” has been gaining some ground in the last few years, but it still tends to be wrapped in a hi-performance package, as in, “This product improves horsepower and mileage...” “Longevity”, however, is a word that falls somewhere between the realms of, “as long as it doesn’t cost more than 100 bucks,” and “who cares, I’m runnin’ low 12’s on pump gas!” And what’s wrong with that? Absolutely nuthin’. It’s just not my bag of chips, that’s all. The only problem is that I didn’t figure any of this out until about the sixth “expert” I talked to about some of my ideas, and the most common response was, “Why would you want to do that when you could build a 2332 with twice the power?”
So what would Brian Boitano do? He’d unleash his inner Mad Scientist and tear into it, which is what I did, and here’s what I came up with:

The case: You’ve basically got three choices: AS-41, AS-21, or straight aluminum. All three have been battle-tested and are up to the task. All three also have their own unique problems you’ll need to sort out first. So basically, whichever one you choose is mostly a function of which pain in the ass you feel like dealing with (i.e. old vs. new, availability, cost, weight, what modification does it require, quality issues, etc). For my build, I went with a late model AH case (AS-41).

Rotating mass (i.e. crank, flywheel and pulley): 4340 chromoly, forged and counter-weighted. That’s a no-brainer to me. Stroked or stock, that is the question. Of course, a shorter stroke means less piston travel (= less friction/less wear), lower piston speeds (= less stress), and a higher rod/stroke ratio with stock length rods (= less side loading = less friction/less wear). On the other hand, longer strokes tend to improve volumetric efficiency at low rpm (= bottom-end torque = possible reduction in gearing for lower rpm cruising). It’s a toss-off. For the flywheel, the heavier the better. Plenty of rotating mass makes for smoother operation. I also like the concept of the harmonic balancer pulley—not only does it add rotating mass but, as the name implies, balances torsional stress on the crank under acceleration. For my build, I went with a 76mm stroker (chromoly, forged, c-w), 16 lb flywheel and 6 lb harmonic pulley.

Reciprocating mass (i.e. con rods and pistons): Keep this as light as possible (less mass = less stress). Light-weight H-beams are a thing of beauty. Keep the P&Cs on the small side. Small pistons are lighter than big ones (duh!) and they have less surface area to absorb combustion heat (= improved thermal efficiency/cooler oil). Smaller cylinders also generally have thicker walls, which helps reduce warping. I won’t say this is a must, but if you can afford to pop for Nickies, that would be icing on the cake. Also not a must, but I highly recommend switching those wrist-pin clips for Teflon buttons (loose clips in the cylinder = no es bueno). For my build, I set my static CR at 8:1/dynamic CR at 7.5:1 with squish at 0.050” for cool running heads and good detonation resistance, CB Perf’s H-beams (137mm, r/s ratio = 1.8:1 w/ 76mm crank) and Cofap 83mm P&Cs (you could touch off a grenade in them bastards and they wouldn’t distort, the walls are so thick!). With that combo, I managed to shave off up to 150 grams from the stock 1600cc rod and piston—even more if you compare larger than stock rods and pistons!

Valvetrain: this is definitely going to be the cork sucker of the bunch. For the cam, stock is about as good as it gets. Low lift/short duration = long life (stock cam? Sweet Jesus, I think I just made a couple of HiPo guys piss themselves with such blasphemous talk!). Straight-cut gears reduce friction and take the pressure off the cam thrust bearing, but some people don’t think that’s necessary and/or don’t like the noise they make (what?), so that’s a judgment call. Light-weight lifters, aluminum push rods and titanium retainers help lighten the reciprocating mass (less mass = less stress), and 1.1:1 rockers and stock-weight single springs keep the pressure on the cam and valves to a minimum. Beehive springs would be even better, but I doubt you’ll find any for this application. For valves, again, go small. Just like pistons, smaller valves have less surface area to absorb heat. They also take up less space in the head, which (theoretically) means more meat between the seats and the spark plug hole (more meat = fewer cracks). And don’t forget to set up the geometry. Now, about that exhaust valve. Titanium is light and strong, but stainless steel probably has the best chance of survival over the long haul. 9mm stems should resist stretching better than 8mm, but they’re also heavier, so that’s another toss off. Cryo-treatment is a good idea (in fact, cryo-treating the whole engine is a good idea). Sodium filled might be another good idea. Polishing the face to a mirror finish should also help some. Will it go 250k if you do all that? Honestly, I don’t think anyone really knows the answer to that question. The HiPo guys are going to say no way, and in an engine built for abusive strip action, they’re 100% correct (abusive strip action, hmm, that reminds me of my 21st birthday). The cheapos are also going to say no way, because they never had an engine go more than 100k without taking a dump (of course, flogging the hell out of an engine made of cheap aftermarket parts and valve adjustments every 20k could have been a factor). Me personally, I think it’s do-able. Sure, the seats aren’t going to seal like they used to and the guides’ll be pretty loosey-goosey by the time you hit 250k, but still do-able. For my build, I went with a stock cam, straight-cut gears, CB Perf’s light-weight lifters, stock aluminum pushrods, stock single springs and 1.1:1 rockers. Due to availability issues at the time, I couldn’t get the smaller 33x30 valves with 9mm stems, so I had to settle for 35x32 with 8mm stems, stainless and faces polished to a mirror finish. Ti retainers are on the to-do list, but for the time being steel is the deal.

Intake/Exhaust: The main thing you really have to watch for here is correct fuel metering and atomization. Liquid fuel in the cylinder washes oil off the walls and eats your rings, and stoichiometric A/F ratios burn hotter than the devil’s rectum. So whether you go stock, dual carbs, EFI, whatever, as long as it’s tuned right and atomizes the juice, in terms of longevity you should be fine. As for the exhaust, basically anything that gets the hot exhaust gasses out and away from the engine as fast as possible should do. For my build, I went with a set of Darla twins and a CB Perf 1⅜ header with hide-away muffler.

Ignition: As long as it’s got a proper advance curve and provides enough spark to light the fire, in terms of longevity, I can’t see much difference in which system you run. Swapping points for electronic ignition will reduce the wear on the distributor shaft bushing to practically zero, but some people don’t trust them, so that’s another judgment call. For my build, I went with a stock coil and an SVDA from AC.N.

Some things I didn’t do but wish I had: The first thing that comes to mind is Bob Hoover’s HVX mods. This is supposed to really improve oil flow to the heads, especially the rockers. The two reasons I didn’t do it was because for one, I’ve never done it before and the case I have is very unique, so I wasn’t about to practice on it, and for two, all that extra oil flow to the heads is great for the heads, but I’m not sure how all that extra heat in the oil will affect the rest of the engine. Unfortunately, this is one of those areas with very little information to be found, but if I had to do it all over again, I think I’d give it a try. Another thing I wish I’d tried is cryo-treating, especially on the cylinder heads. If it does even half of what everyone claims it does, then cryo-treating sounds like the best thing to come along since sliced bread. The last thing I wish I’d been able to do is put a thermal barrier coating on the back of the exhaust valve and port, and inside the exhaust header. I just couldn’t find anyone locally who could do it, nor any off-the-shelf products so I could do it myself (it’s still on the to-do list, though).

Some things I did do and I’m glad I did: Paying complete attention to every minute detail of the build goes without saying. Balance and blueprint EVERYTHING. Full-flowing the case is a must, as well. 10w-30 synthetic motor oil is perfect for the job. All the cooling tins are, of course, essential (including, and maybe even especially the little air deflector plate that I have never seen anybody put under the cylinder head). Beware of aftermarket tins that merely resemble the real thing (you mean the fan housing is supposed to have vanes in it?). Polishing the entire combustion chamber, including piston crown and valve faces, to a mirror finish really helps reflect the heat, improves thermal efficiency and prevents carbon build-up. Painting the entire engine with black VHT wrinkle coat and black VHT high temp on the heads was a good idea (I think). Some people think the whole “paint it black” thing is just snake oil and the paint may even act as an insulator to keep the heat in. I actually ran some tests with painted vs. bare metal components, and what I found was that at lower temperatures, there was, in fact, little difference between the two. But at temperatures approaching 200°F and above, the black wrinkle-coated object shed heat significantly faster. Plus, it’s extremely durable, easy to touch up, and looks sweet as pie. Dry-film lubricant coatings on all the bearings, piston skirts and lifter faces was a great idea, but it goes on thick, so watch your clearances. Total-seal rings I can’t say enough good things about. One of my favorite things to do is turn my engine over by hand, until the point where the compression is building up so high I can’t hardly pull it anymore, and then let go. With the dry-film coatings reducing friction and the Total-seal rings literally creating a total seal, it actually springs backwards! I’ve never seen an engine do that before—it plumb boggles my mind. But the thing I would have to say I’m most impressed with is the golfball dimples I put on the intake ports. My original intention was to create turbulent flow near the surface of the metal, which should help prevent the fuel from dropping out of suspension and puddling up in the curves. I’ll be damned if those dimples didn’t have the bonus effect of adding a good 200 or 300 rpm to the top end!

Some things the HiPo guys will tell you to do but I wouldn’t if I were you:
If your goal is pure longevity, I’d stay away from deep sumps and 20w-50 oil. BY FAR the most wear on your bearings and other components is done at start-up when everything is cold and dry. Hot 20w-50 is already hard to squeeze into those tight clearances, so cold 20w-50 is going to protect your engine about as well as spackle. Deep sumps add oil capacity, and you can argue about whether or not this helps keep the oil cool till the cows come home, but the undeniable fact is that all that extra oil takes longer to reach operating temperature, and until it does, you’re doing damage to your engine. Accusumps might work, though. They add oil capacity, but they also provide instant oil pressure at start-up and whenever there is a temporary loss of pressure, such as during hard cornering.

Now, what about results? I almost hate to say it, but the first thing I noticed about my new “longevity” motor was the power. 89 bhp at the crank at 5000 rpm. That’s just over 54 bhp per liter! (Yeah, I know all the HiPo guys are probably scoffing at that, but that’s ok. When the zombie apocalypse comes and your 12-seconds-on-pump-gas screamer is seized up by the side of the road and the dead are coming for your brains, I’ll be sure to wave as I’m passing you by.) The second thing I noticed was the fuel efficiency: 40+ mpg on the highway—not too shabby. But the true test came on the San Diego-Denver stint of my latest cross country road trip. There’s a stretch of highway in the Mojave from Baker, Ca. to Mountain Pass that climbs from 930 feet ASL to 4700 feet ASL in 36 miles. I did it in July, with me plus another 400 lbs worth of tools, parts and other crap in the car, ambient temperature 116°F, 60 mph in top gear. There were actual road signs along the way warning you to turn off all unnecessary accessories or else you are going to effin’ die! Oil temperature leveled off at around 240°F about halfway into the climb, and immediately dropped to around 210°F once I started down the other side (it’s an 8% slope down the back; I managed to peg 101 mph with the gearbox in neutral!). And that’s with no deep sump and no external oil cooler. CHT I had to measure with an infrared gun at the time, so for what it’s worth, as soon as I got a chance to pull over and take a reading, both heads measured in the upper 320°F range.
Well, there you have it. Am I happy with the way it turned out? You bet. Will it go the distance? I’ll let you know in another 240k.


That engine is currently only at about 50k miles, but it still purrs like, well, an animal that purrs. The compression and oil pressure haven't degraded in the slightest (all four cylinders are spot on 155 psi, and the oil averages 12.5 psi per 1000 RPM to a max of 37.5 psi). I've since upgraded the ignition by adding a Winterburn CDI, and the cooling by adding a venturi ring and some ram air cooling ducts, and the valve train with some titanium retainers. I have a problem with the engine running too cool in the non-summer months, so I switched to 5W-30 synthetic oil and added an electric sump pre-heater.
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slalombuggy
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 9:08 pm    Post subject: Re: you were to build a stock type 1 vw motor to go 200,000 miles Reply with quote

If I was doing this I would use:

88mm custom pistons with slipper skirts and thin rings in thick wall cylinders.

74mm crank with stock journals polished and balanced full circle oiling grooves in all mains

Stock rods with ARP bolts polished and balanced

Full flowed aluminum case with 4 quart sump, Hoover oil mods for lifter oiling, sand sealed, a true PCV system

Roller cam and lifters cheater grind

Aluminum roller rockers

HD aluminum pushrods

Higher flowing heads with sodium filled exhaust valves. coated chambers and exhaust ports

.040 deck to keep the heat in the head

Fuel injection (non factory) and crank fire ignition
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:09 am    Post subject: Re: If you were to build a stock vw motor to last 200,000 miles Reply with quote

spencerfvee wrote:
nextgen wrote:
Bugguy you are 100% correct in what you are saying. Yes the guy that started this post did not mention how much he was willing to spend to achieve his 200k plus good performance goal.

What you said is not cheap. an unlimited amount of money anything can be made.

My point was and is, the T-4 has done all and more of what he wants.

Actually I would say for the cost of what it would cost to built that T-1, a 150hp T-4 could be built that that can well exceed the 200 k goal with a heck of alot more power then the T-1

If the project is just to see if a T-1 can be built that can go 200k and have power, Ok I understand.
........................................................................................................................ you are not telling every one how much it would cost for a up right type4 fan housing kit .so you can put a the type 4 motor into a bug and the cost of a header for a type 4 big money no thanks on a type 4 motor. in hot vws mag you rarely see a vw bug with a type4 motor . here on the samba you rarely see type 4 builds why no one wants the type4 motors in there bugs . for the last time this is a type 1 motor build . if your so in love with a type4 motors . start your own type 4 motor build . spencerfvee


Uh....no.

YOU....rarely see type 4 builds in the forums. There are people here every day building type 4 engines. You are simply looking for and at type 1. Bus people, 914 people, type 3 people....and especially 411 and 412 people. Even a few right here in the performance/type 1 fanboy forum! Wink

Are there MORE people building type 1's than type 4?.....YES....and there beter be because type 1 vehicles outnumber type 4 vehicles in productikn numbers alone by at least 7:1....probably more.

Yeah....we get it.....you want a type 1.

By the way.....just so you understand where I think the mistake in the original question was made.....that generated the shit storm of widely varying replies.

WHAT IS YOUR BUDGET????????

You never stated that.

So.....I do not want to hear a single word about type 4 versus type 1 COST.

Its irrelevent to the original question.....in light of a lot of the exotica and machine work suggested in this thread......and this does not mean I am being pointy or laughing at a single post.

Most of these guys are just like me. Since I do as much of my own work as possible....do not have lots of money to replace broken parts experiments.....I try to build in as much reliability and capacity as possible....even going the extra mile to test special coatings and parts. The difference from most is that I only work on type 4.......and because of the CHARACTERISTICS of type 4 engines......I EXPECT.....and generally get......200k miles out of every type 4 engine I build.

You dont find that many threads from type 4 engine guys.....asking "how do I get 200k out of a type 4 engine".......just saying you might want to pick the brains a little of the type 4 engine. Just looking at what it has....stock......could put you on a path for what you need. After all....the type 4 IS.....simply a re-engineered type 1 engine.

Lastly.......the cost of an upright cooling system is PEANUTS....when laid in the table next to custom pistons and heat/friction shedding coatings.....and lots of machine work.....and a wide range of the other high end (and witj good merit) suggestions here. Heck....Nextgen can tell you how to build one in your garage!

Just sayin.......dont get bent that people are suggesting type 4 engines. Slow down and take a look at WHY they are suggesting a type 4.....and apppy a bit of that to your type 1 quest.

After all ....
"Most" of the characteristics you are looking for......come from the factory in type 4 engines.

Wink Ray
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:45 am    Post subject: Re: If you were to build a stock vw motor to last 200,000 miles Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
Q-Dog wrote:
67rustavenger wrote:
Q-Dog wrote:
I would build a single port 1600 with a cheater cam and doghouse cooling. I would buy 2 sets of heads and 4 sets of bearings and 2 sets of cam with lifters. Every 50 thousand miles I would replace bearings and inspect the heads. Valve job if necessary. Second set of heads and cam would get installed at 100,000 miles, along with new bearings.

This seems counter to the question.

"If you were to build a single port motor to last 200,000 miles"

Changing the bearings, cam, lifters and heads. Is really rebuilding (refreshing) an engine early. Rather than at the 200K mark, that Spencer is speaking of.

40+ years ago. I had my first 67 with a stock 1500. In shroud oil cooler. Completely neglected and abused.
I drove that car everywhere. From So Cal to Az. So Cal to Mammoth Mt. ski trips. So Cal to Sf Bay area and back in a weekend. Only two times did that little work horse let me down. Once by a set of burned points. And the other, Embarassed over heated it climbing the Grapevine.

I never clocked the miles on that car before I killed it. Sad
But, it was allot of care free miles. And the car kept giving and giving.
Imagine if I had bothered to do the proper maintenance.
Who knows how many miles that little 1500 would have lasted.

Igot busy and didn't come back to this thread, but the reasoning behind the 50,000 mile refresh is if you catch the bearings before they got too worn down you may avoid beating up the case and may not have to do any machining/line boring, etc. Just install new bearings and put it all back together.

If you really want to build a 200,000 mile daily driver VW engine, you would have to reengineer it with better parts, tighter tolerances, better balancing, modern coatings on internals, etc.



Uh....you mean...build it like a type 4?

They are simply re-engineered type 1 engines....better materials, better oiling, better cooling, solid rockers...blah, blah, blah.....yeah....I know....the OP wants a type 1. But by the time you add all of the coatings and better rocker shafts and rockers and valves and cooling and oil filter......and especially the aluminum case so you don't pound out the case bores......you spent as much or more as a type 4....and they already go 200k miles. Laughing ....just sayin!

Ray


I mean, you’re stating that it’s like a T4, but nothing was coated, balancing was about the same, and tolerances were the same. Better? I don’t think the parts were better. They were adequate for their intended purpose. I have plenty of T4 cases with worn-out main bearing saddles to say otherwise. In a Bug, it’s different, but in the vehicles they came from, they were all renowned as poor performers. Let’s not even delve into heads. Almost 100% of all factory heads need major work, if they’re even usable still.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:09 am    Post subject: Re: If you were to build a stock vw motor to last 200,000 miles Reply with quote

bugguy1967 wrote:
raygreenwood wrote:
Q-Dog wrote:
67rustavenger wrote:
Q-Dog wrote:
I would build a single port 1600 with a cheater cam and doghouse cooling. I would buy 2 sets of heads and 4 sets of bearings and 2 sets of cam with lifters. Every 50 thousand miles I would replace bearings and inspect the heads. Valve job if necessary. Second set of heads and cam would get installed at 100,000 miles, along with new bearings.

This seems counter to the question.

"If you were to build a single port motor to last 200,000 miles"

Changing the bearings, cam, lifters and heads. Is really rebuilding (refreshing) an engine early. Rather than at the 200K mark, that Spencer is speaking of.

40+ years ago. I had my first 67 with a stock 1500. In shroud oil cooler. Completely neglected and abused.
I drove that car everywhere. From So Cal to Az. So Cal to Mammoth Mt. ski trips. So Cal to Sf Bay area and back in a weekend. Only two times did that little work horse let me down. Once by a set of burned points. And the other, Embarassed over heated it climbing the Grapevine.

I never clocked the miles on that car before I killed it. Sad
But, it was allot of care free miles. And the car kept giving and giving.
Imagine if I had bothered to do the proper maintenance.
Who knows how many miles that little 1500 would have lasted.

Igot busy and didn't come back to this thread, but the reasoning behind the 50,000 mile refresh is if you catch the bearings before they got too worn down you may avoid beating up the case and may not have to do any machining/line boring, etc. Just install new bearings and put it all back together.

If you really want to build a 200,000 mile daily driver VW engine, you would have to reengineer it with better parts, tighter tolerances, better balancing, modern coatings on internals, etc.



Uh....you mean...build it like a type 4?

They are simply re-engineered type 1 engines....better materials, better oiling, better cooling, solid rockers...blah, blah, blah.....yeah....I know....the OP wants a type 1. But by the time you add all of the coatings and better rocker shafts and rockers and valves and cooling and oil filter......and especially the aluminum case so you don't pound out the case bores......you spent as much or more as a type 4....and they already go 200k miles. Laughing ....just sayin!

Ray


I mean, you’re stating that it’s like a T4, but nothing was coated, balancing was about the same, and tolerances were the same. Better? I don’t think the parts were better. They were adequate for their intended purpose. I have plenty of T4 cases with worn-out main bearing saddles to say otherwise. In a Bug, it’s different, but in the vehicles they came from, they were all renowned as poor performers. Let’s not even delve into heads. Almost 100% of all factory heads need major work, if they’re even usable still.


Yes.....and thats not what we are really speakimg of......but the facts still remain.....in stockish or just above stock builds.....type 4 engines....unless they are beat to shit in a pooorly maintained, heavily loaded bus.....which the engine was NOT built for (it just got moved into the bus)......type 4 engines RARELY require align bore or get their saddles beat out until about the 3rd rebuild. Type 4 engines originally came in 2300 lb max weight cars ....not far enough different than a beetle to make the difference.

And.....thats just the aluminum case....and you can get that for a type 1 as well.

Agred.....the longer mileage span before the csse bores get beat out.... had nothing to do with balance or crank, pistons or head quality.....even though type 4 heads have far more cooling fins......its not what affects the case life. That's just the aluminum material.

Yes....easy to say NOW that we find type 4 cases with oval bores.....but its been 50 years since they came on the market.

You dont need hoover mods....came from the factory. Dont need a larger oil cooler....came from the factory. .....higher ratio rockers.....came from the factory.......dont need and oil filter....came from the factory.

Yes....type 4s have their own issues. And no.....just like the type 1....it did not have special coatings....balance and parts quality are no different.......abd yet in 2200 to 2300 lb cars.....because of the differences they DO have.....type 4 engines rarely last less than 150k miles with good care....and easily up to and over 200k miles.....WITHOUT the every 50-70k miles partial rebuild.

Thats all I am saying.....and not suggesting that the OP should go type 4......saying just LOOK at what the type 4 brought to the table. If you do that much alone.....without special anything......in a 2200 to 2300 lb car.....it can easily last 200k miles.

That may be as simple as a type 1 with hoover mods.....a full flow filter....and aluminum aftermarket case.....and better aftermarket heads witj more cooling fins.

But its been done....and it works.....in the type 4's. Just study them a bit.
Ray
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:36 am    Post subject: Re: If you were to build a stock vw motor to last 200,000 miles Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
bugguy1967 wrote:
raygreenwood wrote:
Q-Dog wrote:
67rustavenger wrote:
Q-Dog wrote:
I would build a single port 1600 with a cheater cam and doghouse cooling. I would buy 2 sets of heads and 4 sets of bearings and 2 sets of cam with lifters. Every 50 thousand miles I would replace bearings and inspect the heads. Valve job if necessary. Second set of heads and cam would get installed at 100,000 miles, along with new bearings.

This seems counter to the question.

"If you were to build a single port motor to last 200,000 miles"

Changing the bearings, cam, lifters and heads. Is really rebuilding (refreshing) an engine early. Rather than at the 200K mark, that Spencer is speaking of.

40+ years ago. I had my first 67 with a stock 1500. In shroud oil cooler. Completely neglected and abused.
I drove that car everywhere. From So Cal to Az. So Cal to Mammoth Mt. ski trips. So Cal to Sf Bay area and back in a weekend. Only two times did that little work horse let me down. Once by a set of burned points. And the other, Embarassed over heated it climbing the Grapevine.

I never clocked the miles on that car before I killed it. Sad
But, it was allot of care free miles. And the car kept giving and giving.
Imagine if I had bothered to do the proper maintenance.
Who knows how many miles that little 1500 would have lasted.

Igot busy and didn't come back to this thread, but the reasoning behind the 50,000 mile refresh is if you catch the bearings before they got too worn down you may avoid beating up the case and may not have to do any machining/line boring, etc. Just install new bearings and put it all back together.

If you really want to build a 200,000 mile daily driver VW engine, you would have to reengineer it with better parts, tighter tolerances, better balancing, modern coatings on internals, etc.



Uh....you mean...build it like a type 4?

They are simply re-engineered type 1 engines....better materials, better oiling, better cooling, solid rockers...blah, blah, blah.....yeah....I know....the OP wants a type 1. But by the time you add all of the coatings and better rocker shafts and rockers and valves and cooling and oil filter......and especially the aluminum case so you don't pound out the case bores......you spent as much or more as a type 4....and they already go 200k miles. Laughing ....just sayin!

Ray


I mean, you’re stating that it’s like a T4, but nothing was coated, balancing was about the same, and tolerances were the same. Better? I don’t think the parts were better. They were adequate for their intended purpose. I have plenty of T4 cases with worn-out main bearing saddles to say otherwise. In a Bug, it’s different, but in the vehicles they came from, they were all renowned as poor performers. Let’s not even delve into heads. Almost 100% of all factory heads need major work, if they’re even usable still.


Yes.....and thats not what we are really speakimg of......but the facts still remain.....in stockish or just above stock builds.....type 4 engines....unless they are beat to shit in a pooorly maintained, heavily loaded bus.....which the engine was NOT built for (it just got moved into the bus)......type 4 engines RARELY require align bore or get their saddles beat out until about the 3rd rebuild. Type 4 engines originally came in 2300 lb max weight cars ....not far enough different than a beetle to make the difference.

And.....thats just the aluminum case....and you can get that for a type 1 as well.

Agred.....the longer mileage span before the csse bores get beat out.... had nothing to do with balance or crank, pistons or head quality.....even though type 4 heads have far more cooling fins......its not what affects the case life. That's just the aluminum material.

Yes....easy to say NOW that we find type 4 cases with oval bores.....but its been 50 years since they came on the market.

You dont need hoover mods....came from the factory. Dont need a larger oil cooler....came from the factory. .....higher ratio rockers.....came from the factory.......dont need and oil filter....came from the factory.

Yes....type 4s have their own issues. And no.....just like the type 1....it did not have special coatings....balance and parts quality are no different.......abd yet in 2200 to 2300 lb cars.....because of the differences they DO have.....type 4 engines rarely last less than 150k miles with good care....and easily up to and over 200k miles.....WITHOUT the every 50-70k miles partial rebuild.

Thats all I am saying.....and not suggesting that the OP should go type 4......saying just LOOK at what the type 4 brought to the table. If you do that much alone.....without special anything......in a 2200 to 2300 lb car.....it can easily last 200k miles.

That may be as simple as a type 1 with hoover mods.....a full flow filter....and aluminum aftermarket case.....and better aftermarket heads witj more cooling fins.

But its been done....and it works.....in the type 4's. Just study them a bit.
Ray
.............................................................................................................ray why are you high jacking this forum . trying to defend a type 4 motor as the best motor vw ever built . who cares please start your own forum on type 4 motors . instead of high jacking my forum your being very rude thank you spencerfvee
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bugguy1967
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:47 am    Post subject: Re: you were to build a stock type 1 vw motor to go 200,000 miles Reply with quote

Btw Ray. I have two T4 projects. I love em, but don't care to push them much for my own selfish reasons. The more people we get to jump ship, the less cores that will be available. So 🤐...
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:52 am    Post subject: Re: If you were to build a stock vw motor to last 200,000 miles Reply with quote

bugguy1967 wrote:
raygreenwood wrote:
Q-Dog wrote:
67rustavenger wrote:
Q-Dog wrote:
I would build a single port 1600 with a cheater cam and doghouse cooling. I would buy 2 sets of heads and 4 sets of bearings and 2 sets of cam with lifters. Every 50 thousand miles I would replace bearings and inspect the heads. Valve job if necessary. Second set of heads and cam would get installed at 100,000 miles, along with new bearings.

This seems counter to the question.

"If you were to build a single port motor to last 200,000 miles"

Changing the bearings, cam, lifters and heads. Is really rebuilding (refreshing) an engine early. Rather than at the 200K mark, that Spencer is speaking of.

40+ years ago. I had my first 67 with a stock 1500. In shroud oil cooler. Completely neglected and abused.
I drove that car everywhere. From So Cal to Az. So Cal to Mammoth Mt. ski trips. So Cal to Sf Bay area and back in a weekend. Only two times did that little work horse let me down. Once by a set of burned points. And the other, Embarassed over heated it climbing the Grapevine.

I never clocked the miles on that car before I killed it. Sad
But, it was allot of care free miles. And the car kept giving and giving.
Imagine if I had bothered to do the proper maintenance.
Who knows how many miles that little 1500 would have lasted.

Igot busy and didn't come back to this thread, but the reasoning behind the 50,000 mile refresh is if you catch the bearings before they got too worn down you may avoid beating up the case and may not have to do any machining/line boring, etc. Just install new bearings and put it all back together.

If you really want to build a 200,000 mile daily driver VW engine, you would have to reengineer it with better parts, tighter tolerances, better balancing, modern coatings on internals, etc.



Uh....you mean...build it like a type 4?

They are simply re-engineered type 1 engines....better materials, better oiling, better cooling, solid rockers...blah, blah, blah.....yeah....I know....the OP wants a type 1. But by the time you add all of the coatings and better rocker shafts and rockers and valves and cooling and oil filter......and especially the aluminum case so you don't pound out the case bores......you spent as much or more as a type 4....and they already go 200k miles. Laughing ....just sayin!

Ray


I mean, you’re stating that it’s like a T4, but nothing was coated, balancing was about the same, and tolerances were the same. Better? I don’t think the parts were better. They were adequate for their intended purpose. I have plenty of T4 cases with worn-out main bearing saddles to say otherwise. In a Bug, it’s different, but in the vehicles they came from, they were all renowned as poor performers. Let’s not even delve into heads. Almost 100% of all factory heads need major work, if they’re even usable still.
..............................................................................................................buggy guy ray is like a bad rash he keeps coming back . lol he is so hung up on type4 motors hes all ways right and every one is all ways wrong . theres no talking to him .he just likes to hear him self talk . when no one realy cares what he has to say about type 4 motors . i might have to ask evert to talk to him .i dont want this forum to be locked down be cause of him . i hope he goes a way . i am sure hes a nice guy . there all ways good in people you just have to bring it out of them take care buppy guy spencerfvee
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:53 am    Post subject: Re: you were to build a stock type 1 vw motor to go 200,000 miles Reply with quote

I know really. Spencervee asked about a type 1. Never did he ask about how a type 4 may be better. He's probably tired of telling a few people on this thread that he's not interested in T4.

It's like suggesting a turbo every single time someone ask about an engine build here.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:02 am    Post subject: Re: you were to build a stock type 1 vw motor to go 200,000 miles Reply with quote

One thought I had was switching to a thermostatic based oil cooling system instead of the stock pressure based oil cooling system. That would allow the oil to get up to temp and hopefully allow a tighter control over oil temperature. Of course, a fully functioning factory air cooling system with that thermostat in place would be a must too.

The other thought was to put a seal in the rear of the case and devise a proper positive crankcase ventilation (PVC) system. The stock system just kinda hopes the evaporated condensation will find it way out of the case. Slalombuggy touched on this, as well as sodium filled exhaust valves with thicker stems which even VW adopted in the end.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:32 am    Post subject: Re: you were to build a stock type 1 vw motor to go 200,000 miles Reply with quote

Chickensoup, I know what he was asking.

That is, in his words "Re: you were to build a stock type 1 vw motor to go 200,000 miles "

He wants to build a T-1 to 200,k or more with good performance.

Well I gave him the blueprint. VW being the largest car company in the world put it's engineers on it and they came up with the T-4.

You don't have to buy one.

As for Heads failing on T-4's Remember we are talking the Engine in a Light Bug. NOT a two ton Bus, or 411 or 412 or 914 or 912E

Yes All except the bus I can say will do 200k

Why is my bug well above 200k maybe 400k is because it is the lightest of all the above, 1700 lbs, No back seat, no insulation and rarely a front seat passenger. Point to point 70 miles a day at 65 to 70 mph all the way. My I weight 155 lbs.

What did VW do to reach and go beyond your goal is right in front of you.

If you want to melt some Aluminum and start from "0" It is up to you.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:55 am    Post subject: Re: you were to build a stock type 1 vw motor to go 200,000 miles Reply with quote

I posted this on the 68+ forum but did not get much/any response.

What are the best single port heads that you can get at the moment without any modification done to them. I will be putting in stainless valves and the best rocker arm configuration in them. I am not looking for horsepower, just bullet proof heads. I am sticking with a capacity of 1500/1600.

The car is a 1968 1500 with over 500K miles on the odometer and has the original engine.

Any advice - just the heads.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:44 am    Post subject: Re: you were to build a stock type 1 vw motor to go 200,000 miles Reply with quote

Meiang wrote:
I posted this on the 68+ forum but did not get much/any response.

What are the best single port heads that you can get at the moment without any modification done to them. I will be putting in stainless valves and the best rocker arm configuration in them. I am not looking for horsepower, just bullet proof heads. I am sticking with a capacity of 1500/1600.

The car is a 1968 1500 with over 500K miles on the odometer and has the original engine.

Any advice - just the heads.


Not many really put effort into sp heads, so just buy some AAs and send them to someone who can bring them up to a higher quality level for you.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:58 am    Post subject: Re: you were to build a stock type 1 vw motor to go 200,000 miles Reply with quote

Meiang wrote:

What are the best single port heads that you can get at the moment without any modification done to them.

Any advice - just the heads.

Good condition original heads sometimes come up in Samba classifieds. Those would be my personal first preference. For new, I would go with new a set of new single ports from aircooled.net. Economical and trouble free route to go. They're new but they still do their own valve job on them and guarantee the work. I believe Mofoco also has new sp's.
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