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ELFRIED Samba Member
Joined: August 09, 2017 Posts: 410 Location: belgium
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Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 12:28 am Post subject: brake bleeding |
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It's certainly not the first time I've done this but now I got something strange going on.
I changed my brake cilinder for a dual one.New reservoir directly on the brake cilinder( no brake lines).
Bleeding of 3 wheels went ok - about 5 pumps and no air coming out- but the drivers front wheel keeps coming air.My wife 's tired of pushing the pedal after a few days of trying ...
I stopped it and took the a look at the wheel cilinder but there's no leak .
No leaks at the brake cilinder either and I think there can't be air in the brake cilionder while the front passenger side was after 5 pumps airless and it's the same circuit inside the brake cilinder.
All the parts are new , ...
All ideas are wellcome. |
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jeffrey8164 Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018 Posts: 3818 Location: Georgia
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Car32 Samba Member
Joined: June 19, 2020 Posts: 39 Location: Colorado
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Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 10:32 am Post subject: Re: brake bleeding |
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On my '71 Ghia, I installed all-new, 4-wheel disc brakes and a disc/disc master cylinder.
I couldn't get the system to bleed: the left rear would pull no brake fluid using a vacuum bleeder ( https://tinyurl.com/ameknx5d ).
So, I took some advice from this forum and used the Motive pressure bleeder mentioned above in this thread but not in the "traditional" sense.
I put about 1" of brake fluid in the bottom of the bleeder and pumped pressure into the left-rear bleeder valve, pushing air through the line, into the master cylinder and out through the reservoir.
It worked and I have good brakes. Best of luck to you. _________________ First Car = 1970 Westfallen Typ II
Second Car = 1966 Baja
Nth Car = 2006 Cayman S
1971 Karmann Ghia Coupe |
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rbsurfguy Samba Member
Joined: August 10, 2008 Posts: 1757 Location: Fairfax, Northern Virginia Formerly Huntington Beach, SoCal
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Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:18 pm Post subject: Re: brake bleeding |
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Awesome, definitely n my to buy list!
Question, is everyone just using the standard DOT 3 brake fluid or has anyone found using another grade works better...asking for a friend!
Jeff _________________ 1971 Ghia convertible (Body off rebuild)
2019 VW Atlas 4Motion
2012 Passat-Sold
See my build on The Samba at:
Jeff's 71 Vert Restoration/Reassembly http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6...highlight= |
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ELFRIED Samba Member
Joined: August 09, 2017 Posts: 410 Location: belgium
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Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:31 pm Post subject: Re: brake bleeding |
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I'm using dot 4 now |
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rbsurfguy Samba Member
Joined: August 10, 2008 Posts: 1757 Location: Fairfax, Northern Virginia Formerly Huntington Beach, SoCal
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Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:36 am Post subject: Re: brake bleeding |
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Thanks, was trying to consider if I should upgrade to 4.
Jeff _________________ 1971 Ghia convertible (Body off rebuild)
2019 VW Atlas 4Motion
2012 Passat-Sold
See my build on The Samba at:
Jeff's 71 Vert Restoration/Reassembly http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6...highlight= |
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jeffrey8164 Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018 Posts: 3818 Location: Georgia
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Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:29 am Post subject: Re: brake bleeding |
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Differences between DOT 3 and DOT 4 have to do with boiling points and water absorption. DOT 3 was it when these cars were built so that’s what most people use. One can easily go to DOT 4 but I can’t believe the brakes will work any better. Maybe there would be less fade with DOT 4 on a spirited ride on some twisty roads when you’re braking heavily and often.
There are also DOT 5 and DOT 5.1 brake fluids but those are glycol and silicone based which are typically used in large heavy vehicles. Not sure if any of the DOT 5s affect the seals in the master cylinder, calipers etc. _________________ Volkswagen!
Turning owners into mechanics since 1938.
“Let he that is without oil throw the first rod”
(Compression 8.7:1) |
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rbsurfguy Samba Member
Joined: August 10, 2008 Posts: 1757 Location: Fairfax, Northern Virginia Formerly Huntington Beach, SoCal
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Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:26 am Post subject: Re: brake bleeding |
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Thanks Jeffrey, yeah I wasn't concerned about the DOT 5's based on what you listed. Just wondering if the DOT 4 was considered a newer upgrade, but sure the 3 is just fine. Didn't mean to jack the thread.
Jeff _________________ 1971 Ghia convertible (Body off rebuild)
2019 VW Atlas 4Motion
2012 Passat-Sold
See my build on The Samba at:
Jeff's 71 Vert Restoration/Reassembly http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6...highlight= |
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Redlabel6 Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2016 Posts: 383 Location: Minnesota
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Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:11 am Post subject: Re: brake bleeding |
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I used Dot 5 when I did my '73. I replaced all of the steel lines, hoses, calipers, wheel cylinders and master cylinder. The toughest part was cleaning out the brake fluid reservoir. I have had no issues, the pedal has always been nice and firm.
I plan on using it in the '57 Oval Beetle I'm working on now.
D _________________ 1957 Oval Window Beetle
1973 Karmann Ghia Coupe
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=666792&highlight=73+coupe |
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kingkarmann Samba Member
Joined: November 05, 2003 Posts: 4111
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Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:13 am Post subject: Re: brake bleeding |
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Redlabel6 wrote: |
I used Dot 5 when I did my '73. I replaced all of the steel lines, hoses, calipers, wheel cylinders and master cylinder. The toughest part was cleaning out the brake fluid reservoir. I have had no issues, the pedal has always been nice and firm.
I plan on using it in the '57 Oval Beetle I'm working on now.
D |
X2
I switched to DOT 5 mainly because it doesn't eat paint the way DOT 3 can. _________________ "Depression is a malfunction of the instrument we use to determine reality.”
Mike Gerson
What is your "Bespoke Reality"? |
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LVGhia72 Samba Member
Joined: April 22, 2020 Posts: 282 Location: Lost Wages
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Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 2:07 pm Post subject: Re: brake bleeding |
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The brake line may not be seated fully into the wheel cylinder. For what ever reason. This would result in the air being sucked into the system. I had this problem on my Fat Chick.
As far as the Dot 5 brake fluid goes, the entire system needs to be flushed with denatured alcohol. As Dot 5 is not compatible with other brake fluids. Did this to a lot of handling equipment when I was in the military. |
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c21darrel Samba Member
Joined: January 22, 2009 Posts: 8211 Location: San Dimas
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mxl556 Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2015 Posts: 62 Location: Vermont
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Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:09 pm Post subject: Re: brake bleeding |
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I have been using Motive Bleeder for over a decade on a number of cars, including cars with ABS and traction control units. Never a problem and easy to use. I normally try to flush the brake fluid once a year. ATE SL or 200 (used to be blue) DOT4 fluid in a 1 liter metal container works well and a liter is plenty to flush the system in a Ghia. Cable operated non hydraulic clutch makes life easier too.
I'd recommend to use the bleeder dry and not put brake fluid in it. Just topping off the car's brake fluid container works. I stopped filing up the bleeder with brake fluid and like it better that way, it is much cleaner and much less risk to spill the brake fluid on the paint. It is worth it even if I need to watch the fluid level more carefully and refill the car's brake reservoir more often. I fill up the car's brake fluid reservoir to the top, then attach the bleeder, pump it up to 5-7psi for non ABS cars and around 10 for ABS cars, open the valve at the caliper (start from the furthest away). Works every time.
Max |
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rbsurfguy Samba Member
Joined: August 10, 2008 Posts: 1757 Location: Fairfax, Northern Virginia Formerly Huntington Beach, SoCal
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Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:50 pm Post subject: Re: brake bleeding |
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About to pull the trigger on buying this bleeder and had a couple of questions for those who have used it.
1. I replaced the reservoir directly on top of the master cylinder. Does the cap that comes with this bleeder tighten down on the reservoir?
2. Since my system is completely empty, no fluid at all from reservoir to brakes, should I fill the reservoir as well as the bleeder tank to back fill so I don't empty the reservoir? Or does the tank take care of that as I bleed the brakes?
3. I've read the reviews and most are positive, except for the gasket that appears to need to be cut down a bit, did anyone using this have that problem and was it a simple fix?
I just saw Max (mxl556) respond with this answer: "I'd recommend to use the bleeder dry and not put brake fluid in it. Just topping off the car's brake fluid container works. I stopped filing up the bleeder with brake fluid and like it better that way, it is much cleaner and much less risk to spill the brake fluid on the paint. It is worth it even if I need to watch the fluid level more carefully and refill the car's brake reservoir more often. I fill up the car's brake fluid reservoir to the top, then attach the bleeder, pump it up to 5-7psi for non ABS cars and around 10 for ABS cars, open the valve at the caliper (start from the furthest away). Works every time."
So I guess it answered one question, but I am a bit concerned doing it this way since I am not clearing old brake fluid and currently have nothing in the lines, so filling the lines with new fluid. I guess as long as I check the level in the reservoir I should be ok, but that seems like a lot of running back and forth and releasing pressure to refill the reservoir.
All recommendations/advice appreciated.
Jeff _________________ 1971 Ghia convertible (Body off rebuild)
2019 VW Atlas 4Motion
2012 Passat-Sold
See my build on The Samba at:
Jeff's 71 Vert Restoration/Reassembly http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6...highlight= |
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Ian Godfrey Samba Member
Joined: September 25, 2006 Posts: 1137 Location: Melbourne Australia
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Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 4:02 pm Post subject: Re: brake bleeding |
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Motive make a large range of caps to suit almost every reservoir, have a look at there website to see if it is the correct one. Yes, you screw the motive one onto your reservoir.
I do it the same way max does, just putting fluid in the reservoir. For me, not having to clean up the bleeder out ways having to stop and refill the reservoir a couple of times.
I have the cap that works with a stock tank in the trunk and the seal was a good fit.
good luck, it is an annoying process starting with a dry system.
I like to jack up the back of the car to bleed that end, then the same when I bleed the front. sometimes tapping the caliper with a mallet helps the bubbles to move, and sometimes leaving it sit over night and going again the next day seems to help too. |
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rbsurfguy Samba Member
Joined: August 10, 2008 Posts: 1757 Location: Fairfax, Northern Virginia Formerly Huntington Beach, SoCal
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Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 4:07 pm Post subject: Re: brake bleeding |
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Great advice Ian, thank you for that. I'll just go for it, if it screws up, no worries will do it over till I get it correct!
Jeff _________________ 1971 Ghia convertible (Body off rebuild)
2019 VW Atlas 4Motion
2012 Passat-Sold
See my build on The Samba at:
Jeff's 71 Vert Restoration/Reassembly http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6...highlight= |
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kingkarmann Samba Member
Joined: November 05, 2003 Posts: 4111
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Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:22 am Post subject: Re: brake bleeding |
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mxl556 wrote: |
I have been using Motive Bleeder for over a decade on a number of cars, including cars with ABS and traction control units. Never a problem and easy to use. I normally try to flush the brake fluid once a year. ATE SL or 200 (used to be blue) DOT4 fluid in a 1 liter metal container works well and a liter is plenty to flush the system in a Ghia. Cable operated non hydraulic clutch makes life easier too.
I'd recommend to use the bleeder dry and not put brake fluid in it. Just topping off the car's brake fluid container works. I stopped filing up the bleeder with brake fluid and like it better that way, it is much cleaner and much less risk to spill the brake fluid on the paint. It is worth it even if I need to watch the fluid level more carefully and refill the car's brake reservoir more often. I fill up the car's brake fluid reservoir to the top, then attach the bleeder, pump it up to 5-7psi for non ABS cars and around 10 for ABS cars, open the valve at the caliper (start from the furthest away). Works every time.
Max |
I have the Motive bleeder and have been using the " fill it with brake fluid" method. I also use this change DSG transmission fluid in my GTI. You are certainly spot on about how messy this can get.
Thanks for sharing your method. I will be using it in the future. _________________ "Depression is a malfunction of the instrument we use to determine reality.”
Mike Gerson
What is your "Bespoke Reality"? |
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BulliBill Samba Member
Joined: July 09, 2004 Posts: 4572 Location: St Charles, MO
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Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:27 pm Post subject: Re: brake bleeding |
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I bought a German "Schwaben" version of the "Motive" unit but have yet to try it out. I really want to avoid a mess or ANY spillage. My question is if you use it as directed in the instructions or in Youtube product demonstration videos do these types of one-man pressure bleeders often leak? I can understand a few drips ae you detact the pressure cap on your brake reservoir when you are finished and breaking down, but if it is really messy consistently I'd like to know more.
I will first remove with a baster any old brake fluid that I can get out of the reservoir. Then I'll add brand new brake fluid to the reservoir and make sure that I do not overfill the brake reservoir tank, filling it only to the full mark. Then screw on the pressure cap snuggly, then dump the remainder of the bottle of new brake fluid into the pressure tank, then pumping up pressure to say about 7 PSI. Then after bleeding all four corners and we're pretty much done, I assume that you first release any pressure in the bleeder pressure tank, then get rags to surround the brake reservoir cap, then unscrew the bleeder's pressure cap and catch any drips. Once removed then you would add or remove brake fluid to get a full reading on the brake reservoir tank and cap it with your stock reservoir cap.
So does that sound correct, and will doing it this way avoid most messiness? Thanks for relaying your pressure bleeder experience and tips!
Bill _________________ I'm looking for these license plate frames for my fleet:
Coeur D'Alene - Lake Shore Volkswagen
Mission VW - San Fernando
Thornton VW - Stockton
Thanks for any help! |
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Ian Godfrey Samba Member
Joined: September 25, 2006 Posts: 1137 Location: Melbourne Australia
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Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 3:02 am Post subject: Re: brake bleeding |
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What you outline will work well.
the method with no fluid in the pump unit means that the cap on the car reservoir has no fluid around it, so the only spill risk is the filling of the car's reservoir.
let us know how you go |
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bruehoyt Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2008 Posts: 180 Location: Columbus, OH
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