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Newbie with a '71 411 3-door sedan automatic
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Pepperbilly
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 7:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Newbie with a '71 411 3-door sedan automatic Reply with quote

Thanks for the info on the rocker clips. It is good to have options because the NOS ones at Bugcity are $5.95 each!

Bill
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 7:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Newbie with a '71 411 3-door sedan automatic Reply with quote

Thinking about too many things at one time… getting older you know. The foam engine seal so important. It really makes a huge difference in sound level in the car. Years ago when I worked on mine I enjoyed listening to the engine running with the lid off. It was a beautiful muffled symphony of aircooling… just very quiet and smooth is the only way to describe it. With the seal in place the upper engine will get warm because you are right… heat is trapped. That engine lid will also feel warm when closed, but not hot. So everything you are experiencing now is normal… pretty sure.

Bill
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 4:57 am    Post subject: Re: Newbie with a '71 411 3-door sedan automatic Reply with quote

Car is looking great!

One place you can search for a wide range of clips and small parts....mostly for Anerican cars and very old vehicles....but a lot of universal stuff....is Auveco. I think they have been in business just about 100 years. But if you have something like a GM part # that works.....you can probably get it there.

https://www.auveco.com/


And these guys are an Auveco master dealer and have a lot of stuff too.

https://autofastenersandclips.com/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwh..._PEALw_wcB

Ray
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 9:49 am    Post subject: Re: Newbie with a '71 411 3-door sedan automatic Reply with quote

That is good info Ray. Every little bit helps to put these old V Dubs back together Very Happy .

Bill
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 9:49 am    Post subject: Re: Newbie with a '71 411 3-door sedan automatic Reply with quote

Cees,
Congratulations on the paint job. You are working at "lightening" speed. Someday I'll get there too...I hope!

Cheers,
Walter
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:40 am    Post subject: Re: Newbie with a '71 411 3-door sedan automatic Reply with quote

That is good info Ray. Every little bit helps to put these old V Dubs back together Very Happy .

Bill
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Cees Klumper
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Newbie with a '71 411 3-door sedan automatic Reply with quote

Today I went to a car event in San Diego, 95 miles each way. The car performed flawlessly, except for one issue: at higher speeds (50MPH +) and uphill, I could hear the engine knocking, or at least I think it was knocking, although the sound was more like a light 'screetching' - not the lower 'diesel' sound in watercooled engines. It was pretty much consistent whenever I made the engine work harder, I heard it coming from the engine. I pumped the 'middle' octane gas this morning (89?). So I am thinking I need to back off the timing a few degrees, right? It easily pulled past 70 MPH, had it up to 80 at one point just to see what it could do, and it could still go much faster.

The other issue I had, was one of my hubcaps and trim rings left the car. So now I am looking to replace both, and actually a set of 4 of each would be nice (other caps and rings are kind of tired/worn).

My problem though, as with 'All Parts Type 4' is I don't know which will fit. There's plenty available from different suppliers, and some say "fit standard 15 inch wheels" while others indicate they are only for 5 lug wheels, and mine are 4 lug. I reckon I should just call suppliers and ask .... But thanks for any tips, as always!
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:45 am    Post subject: Re: Newbie with a '71 411 3-door sedan automatic Reply with quote

Cees Klumper wrote:
Today I went to a car event in San Diego, 95 miles each way. The car performed flawlessly, except for one issue: at higher speeds (50MPH +) and uphill, I could hear the engine knocking, or at least I think it was knocking, although the sound was more like a light 'screetching' - not the lower 'diesel' sound in watercooled engines. It was pretty much consistent whenever I made the engine work harder, I heard it coming from the engine. I pumped the 'middle' octane gas this morning (89?). So I am thinking I need to back off the timing a few degrees, right? It easily pulled past 70 MPH, had it up to 80 at one point just to see what it could do, and it could still go much faster.

The other issue I had, was one of my hubcaps and trim rings left the car. So now I am looking to replace both, and actually a set of 4 of each would be nice (other caps and rings are kind of tired/worn).

My problem though, as with 'All Parts Type 4' is I don't know which will fit. There's plenty available from different suppliers, and some say "fit standard 15 inch wheels" while others indicate they are only for 5 lug wheels, and mine are 4 lug. I reckon I should just call suppliers and ask .... But thanks for any tips, as always!



Ok.....This sound you were hearing. Lots of things it "could" be.

Let's describe and discuss......so we can figure it out.

What was your exact speed
How long was the hill
How steep....meaning what angle was the car driving in
What gear
What rpm
What was the outside temp
What was the altitude
What exhaust system does it have

Is this a manual,trans or automatic

See.....if its just a steep angle.......lots of things can slide rearward and rub against something. It could be anything from a motor/trans mount shift to sheet metal on fan or shroud to alternator position shift. If it were an automatic it could even be the rearward shift putting torque converter bolts up against the case. Been there.

50mph is not that fast for a 412. But that depends on what gear and what rpm.

It could be the throwout bearing shifting rearward on the hill.....and squeeling.

It could be an exhaust leak only noticable under heavy load.

More data!

Ray
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:48 am    Post subject: Re: Newbie with a '71 411 3-door sedan automatic Reply with quote

The trim rings can be a problem if you don’t get a nice tight fit as Ray has mentioned before. I really don’t care for them. I had my wheels media blasted ad powder coated in an original type color and just use hubcaps…which is how this car originally came. If you want rings you will always combat keeping them and the caps on the wheels.

Bill
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:52 am    Post subject: Re: Newbie with a '71 411 3-door sedan automatic Reply with quote

Oh.....damn.....just thought about this.

My limited experience with trim rings....meaning twice.....once on a 411 and once on a 1972 type 3 fastback......showed me that they are NOISEY......and make a whispering "tinny" rattle sound as air gets under the edge and blows through the slots....as the loose part rotates around to facing forward and gets another gasp of air being pushed into where the trim ring is starting to seperate from the wheel edge.

By the time I started figuring out what the damn noise was.....I had lost two of four trim rings and hubcaps. I hate them....but they do cover up ugly wheels.

So.......one thing that is SUPER common on all of these old cars......sc4dws with rixe quality....and throws hubcaps and trim rings....and makes these cars hard to balance the wheels........is.......if any ACVW you buy.....has been sitting for years.....and ANY of the tifes were flat or nearly flat.........your steel wheels are GUARANTEED...... to have FLAT SPOTS....or spread spots.

This is VERY hard to catch.....because......it does not mess up the rotational concentricty of the wheel enough to see or measure it by looking at just one side or the wheel....either side.....at a time.

By this i mean.....if you jack the car up off the ground......sit in front and just off center of the wheel.....and spin it.....you cannot see this problem. When unloaded (off the ground).....it does not distort the tire tread of a new tire.....so you cannot see this as it spins.

The only ways I have been able to find this......is either shen its very bad.....you can take a pajr of dividers .....and measure from the inside sixe of the bead with the tire empty of air.....and work your way around the wheel until you find the "wide"spot.

Measuring this way....the spot will span about a 3" length of the rim and ojly be ahout 1/16" spread. See....this does not cause the rim to be bent out of radial alignment so you can see it from 3/4 view or side view when the tire spins.

But.....take the tire OFF.....put it on a balance machine or even back on the car.....and spin it.....sitting right in front kf it in line with where the tire would hsve been.

You will see the minor spread spot of the rim go by......but if you look down into the center of the rim itself.....you will see where the FLAT SPOT is.....on the core of the rim.

What this does is it causes the wheel to oscillate vertically as the flat spot reaches the bottom. It creates a vibration the same as you would get when the wheel drops into a shallow hole on patchy pavement......about 1/4" deep......every 3 feet. At anything from 25 to 35 mph....you may not feel it or it feels like very slight imbalance. At 45 and above.....it feels like moderate to heavily out of balance.

The faster you go...and when undef load......the worse this gets.....because on smooth pavement with the engine under heavy torque.....ad that "lower" spot gets around to the point where itscahout to contact the pavement......its a relief of tread pressure.....and the torque tries to cause wheel spin. It skips a few inches.

The vast majority of tire shops over the past 20 years are terrible at catching this....partly because they do not look for it......and partly because all of the new spin balancers cannot be operated without the hood being down ....so you cannot see it.

The old school basic used tire and wheel sales shops usually have an axle or hub welded to a post in the shop....they can bolt the wheels to.....with no tire...and spin it by hand and inspect it with a flashlight.

If your car was aitting afound in one spot for decades....or was in flat tires for more than a year or two.....I can guarantee you have flat spots on your rims. Ray
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Cees Klumper
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 12:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Newbie with a '71 411 3-door sedan automatic Reply with quote

Ok, a lot to unpack!

You've convinced me to ditch the trim rings, repaint my wheels and just go with nice hubcaps. That's that one thing out of the way.

For the knocking sound. This is an automatic car. I was hearing it any time I put a strain on the engine, in third (top) gear, beyond mere accelleration on a flat surface, going at least 55 MPH. From somewhat of an incline to steeper, long swooping hills, at 55-70 MPH if I gave it gas to accellerate, the noise would start. As soon as I let off the gas even just a little bit, it would immediately stop. One of your thoughts, Ray, actually could be just it: the engine tilting just a bit, and the cooling fan (or something else) just barely starting to touch something? Is that possible (can't tell really how it is positioned and whether it would move with the engine or not, or if it does, whether it comes close to something that does not move with the engine). It really was not the standard knocking sound that I know well, almost like a rod knock. Much 'tinnier' / screechier. I didn't like it, so I just took it easier and asked less of the engine the rest of the way.

A third thing: I did not give it much thought until Ray's last post BUT, as I was in stop and go traffic, as soon as I was slowing down to say 5 miles an hour, I was feeling the car (in the rear) just go up and down, up and down, up and down, just a bit but very noticeably. As if one of the wheels/tires was out of round, by quite a bit. It was really rocking/pulsating. I never noticed this before, in normal around-town driving, at any speed. Could it be that the much increased temperatures of the tires and wheels, after driving so long at say 65-70 MPH, in quite warm weather, makes the effect of an out-of-round wheel/tire as you describe, much more pronounced? As soon as I gained speed, over say 15-20 MPH, it would disappear entirely. At 70 MPH, no vibration or wobble or anything, whatsoever. At first I thought it was the road surface, but I am 99% sure it was 'something' about one or both of the rear wheels (first I thought one of the CV axles had somehow worked itself loose).
Thinking again about what I experienced, having read your post again Ray, is that maybe the 'not knocking' sound and the wobble are related - poor engine mounts, or something like that - that allows the engine/axles to rock/move a bit under different conditions. I don't know enough about the way the engine is affixed to the body yet to really speculate too much though.

Thanks again for all of your time and effort to dig into my issues. It is much, much appreciated.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 2:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Newbie with a '71 411 3-door sedan automatic Reply with quote

Cees Klumper wrote:
Ok, a lot to unpack!

You've convinced me to ditch the trim rings, repaint my wheels and just go with nice hubcaps. That's that one thing out of the way.

For the knocking sound. This is an automatic car. I was hearing it any time I put a strain on the engine, in third (top) gear, beyond mere accelleration on a flat surface, going at least 55 MPH. From somewhat of an incline to steeper, long swooping hills, at 55-70 MPH if I gave it gas to accellerate, the noise would start. As soon as I let off the gas even just a little bit, it would immediately stop. One of your thoughts, Ray, actually could be just it: the engine tilting just a bit, and the cooling fan (or something else) just barely starting to touch something? Is that possible (can't tell really how it is positioned and whether it would move with the engine or not, or if it does, whether it comes close to something that does not move with the engine). It really was not the standard knocking sound that I know well, almost like a rod knock. Much 'tinnier' / screechier. I didn't like it, so I just took it easier and asked less of the engine the rest of the way.

A third thing: I did not give it much thought until Ray's last post BUT, as I was in stop and go traffic, as soon as I was slowing down to say 5 miles an hour, I was feeling the car (in the rear) just go up and down, up and down, up and down, just a bit but very noticeably. As if one of the wheels/tires was out of round, by quite a bit. It was really rocking/pulsating. I never noticed this before, in normal around-town driving, at any speed. Could it be that the much increased temperatures of the tires and wheels, after driving so long at say 65-70 MPH, in quite warm weather, makes the effect of an out-of-round wheel/tire as you describe, much more pronounced? As soon as I gained speed, over say 15-20 MPH, it would disappear entirely. At 70 MPH, no vibration or wobble or anything, whatsoever. At first I thought it was the road surface, but I am 99% sure it was 'something' about one or both of the rear wheels (first I thought one of the CV axles had somehow worked itself loose).
Thinking again about what I experienced, having read your post again Ray, is that maybe the 'not knocking' sound and the wobble are related - poor engine mounts, or something like that - that allows the engine/axles to rock/move a bit under different conditions. I don't know enough about the way the engine is affixed to the body yet to really speculate too much though.

Thanks again for all of your time and effort to dig into my issues. It is much, much appreciated.


OK....three things to check:

1. The knock/tap under load on an automatic.....check the torque converter bolts. If they get loose...and they do....they have maybe 0.020" +/-...clearance and will start knocking on the engine case under load. There is some small amount of fore and aft shift for the torque converter assembly as well....I do not know how much is normal or abnormal....BUT...on every automatic 411 or 412 I have had....the torque converter bolts knocking have been a HUGE problem.

This is because it will eventually damage the threads on the welded lugs or bend the bolts if they get out far enough...and it lets the flex plate shift and rattle against the three 8mm bolts...and that is what is most responsible for cracking the holes in the flex plate.

The problem with these bolts is that increased for and aft movement of the whole assembly with age....which makes WHICH bolts you use more critical.

The correct bolt is part # 003 323 699.

You can get them here and other places https://www.vancafe.com/003323699A-p/003323699a.htm

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


It is a flange head bolt. I "think" they are also serrated under the flange head...or should be...because there is NOT enough clearance to use a lock washer underneath them. They will rattle on the case. There is that little clearance.

Therein is the problem. With age....as the fore and aft movement of the TC assembly or the crankshaft increase...I almost always have had to grind down the rim on this area so its flush:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Later....I went to standard 8mm x 1.25 hex bolts which have thinner heads....but in order for them to stay tight they need a THIN hard washer underneath to spread the load. And they should be class 10.9 minimum. These bolts are a problem you need to keep an eye on.

2. Check for spread/flat spots on your wheels AND tires.

I say that because depending on the car and your suspension.....spread rim spots may be an issue at high speed with little issue down low....or vice versa. And....flat spotted tires act the same way. So if your tires have any age at all....and I have found tires get flat spotted as quick as a year or less sometimes without moving the car around or if they are sitting flat or very low on air.

3. Check your drivetrain alignment.

I know this is a long document....and it was designed to speak a lot to 4 speed owners for better shifting....but automatic owners MUST follow the same drivetrain alignment rules and procedure.

The tail cone mount of the transmission MUST float...or be centered in its bore. And...the rear hanger bar MUST NOT be up hard or tight...forcing the drivetrain to move in one direction.

The rear hanger bar and the forward transmission nosecone bumper bushing.....are low or "0" load "bumper devices"....to suspend the RANGE of movement.

100% of the drivetrain package is suspended from the upper mid transmission mount in both manual and auto 411412.

The gist of what can be happening i that if you have bent, spread or out of balance wheels...the motion transfers to the suspension...and can shake the whole drivetrain. If its in hard contact at either the tailcone bushing or hanger bar....it transfers that motion back to the chassis.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620282&highlight

Ray
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 5:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Newbie with a '71 411 3-door sedan automatic Reply with quote

Update on my 411. After painting it, and putting all trim etc back on, I returned my attention to my '72 Lancia Fulvia. The Volkswagen was in a way a practice project to get ready to paint that Lancia, and back in November I did manage that, and it came out really nice. Then, in December, I took on repainting, and doing a bunch of other repairs and maintenance, to my son's 1973 Datsun 240Z, and finished that last week. So after all that was out of the way, I got back to the Volkswagen. Sadly, to get it ready for sale, on Bring a Trailer. As much fun as the car is to drive (and practical also), I have too many cars and come this summer, we are moving back onto our boat in Marina del Rey and will not have any place to store or park more than 2 cars, so it's time for the 411 to go to a new home. I feel very good about all the work I have done to it, giving it a new lease on life as it were. I brought it back from the brink, fixed the various rust and other issues it had, and feel very good about the result. This group has been a fabulous support to me and I could not have gotten it done without all of your knowledge, information and tips. Thanks so much!
I just finished the last little things to get it ready for a video and photo shoot, tomorrow, and as soon as the listing is 'live' on BAT I will post the link here so you all can follow the sale if you are interested. To the best of my knowledge, it is the very first time a 411/412 will be on BAT. It will be 'no reserve' as I don't really care what I get back for it, I learned so much about painting and about this era Volkswagen that any proceeds will just be a bonus.
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Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2022 10:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Newbie with a '71 411 3-door sedan automatic Reply with quote

Thanks for sharing Cees, nice work done!
That red Lancia, at that stage, has quite a few lines in common with the VW Karmann Ghia Type 34.


Looking forward to the BAT link!



/Lars S
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2022 4:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Newbie with a '71 411 3-door sedan automatic Reply with quote

Thanks Lars!

Photos taken and uploaded, and also put together a driving video that I hope will be also accepted, can be found here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ys-gDIeqaHI&t=27s

Decided to have a run on the highway to demonstrate how this car is perfectly capable of keeping up with modern traffic (had it up to around 70-75 I reckon). Don't mind me and the missus, we had fun filming.

Will follow up with the BAT link as soon as I have it.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2022 10:51 am    Post subject: Re: Newbie with a '71 411 3-door sedan automatic Reply with quote

Auction just went live on Bring a Trailer, runs the one week. Already a $1,000 in the first minutes! If that's all I get, I will still be a happy camper, I hope it goes to a good new home:

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1971-volkswagen-411/
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2022 3:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Newbie with a '71 411 3-door sedan automatic Reply with quote

Good luck with the auction. Hope you get alot more than 1K! It is certainly worth more than that. Our type 4’s deserve to be recognized and more valuable. Mine is gonna end up costing a pretty penny when done.

Bill
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2022 11:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Newbie with a '71 411 3-door sedan automatic Reply with quote

Thanks Bill - the tally is up to $3,500 at this point, so it's heading upwards ...
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2022 1:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Newbie with a '71 411 3-door sedan automatic Reply with quote

Cees,

Hope enough bidders are able to find your listing. I noticed there is no type 4 or 411/412 category under Volkswagens. Hard to find your car. Did you notice that?

Bill
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2022 6:39 am    Post subject: Re: Newbie with a '71 411 3-door sedan automatic Reply with quote

Actually no, since I never search BAT that specifically. I just look for 'Volkswagen', or 'Lancia' then find what I need. However, I did find out no 411/412 ever sold on BAT before, while there have been lots of Type 3 squarebacks that passed their auction block.

The listing as of this morning has had 3,200 views and has 467 watchers. Another bid, for $3,600 was just made by a deaer who buys a lot of cars on BAT, including a few months ago a Type 3 'Squareback' for around $21,000.

I think BAT has a lot of potential buyers that review all 50 or so cars that are listed each day on the platform, then bookmark each one they are really interested in, and follow the progress through the end. I believe it's a great way to reach a good 'audience' of potential buyers, mostly in the US but also abroad ...

I hope that, through my auction of this 411, the model will gain some more appreciation in the market. Once I am set up in a new workspace I would like to find another one to restore.
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