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tobloyd Samba Member
Joined: May 28, 2018 Posts: 184 Location: Fountain Hills, AZ
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Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:14 pm Post subject: Air conditioning options in 2021 |
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I get a bit lost in the amps/watts/volts discussions, so I’m wondering if smarter people can clue me in as to whether any new good options have come on the market in the past few years to cool my 1983, 70 hp, air-cooled vanagon while driving. Obviously running a powerful AC off the engine is a no go, but what about installing 2 or 3 marine batteries under the bench seat, maintaining them with a plug-in battery charger at night, and running a DC powered RV air conditioner off them during road trips?
How many batteries would I need charge to get, say, 5 hours of ice-cold AC?
I live in the 110-120 degree AZ heat, so I really need to solve this problem if I’m going to be able to take road trips and go camping with my one year old |
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shagginwagon83 Samba Member
Joined: February 07, 2016 Posts: 3786 Location: VA/TN
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Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:26 pm Post subject: Re: Air conditioning options in 2021 |
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I remember OTG camper posted about this. If I recall the AC running was around 100 amp DC load. It isn't really practical at all. However some big sprinters with 600-1000aH of LiFePo4 it is possible to do it. That's a ton of space.
I'd really recommend some GOOD 12v fans. I love my Camfro Ultimate fan. But if I were to go to the beach it would be plug in AC. _________________ Brandon
"Jo Ann" - '83.5 Westfalia EJ22e w/Peloquin
Instagram @joannthevan |
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tobloyd Samba Member
Joined: May 28, 2018 Posts: 184 Location: Fountain Hills, AZ
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Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:35 pm Post subject: Re: Air conditioning options in 2021 |
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shagginwagon83 wrote: |
I remember OTG camper posted about this. If I recall the AC running was around 100 amp DC load. It isn't really practical at all. However some big sprinters with 600-1000aH of LiFePo4 it is possible to do it. That's a ton of space.
I'd really recommend some GOOD 12v fans. I love my Camfro Ultimate fan. But if I were to go to the beach it would be plug in AC. |
Thanks, but you lost me again in the electrical talk. Fans aren’t enough to keep a baby safe when it’s 115 degrees out. The inside of the van gets to 130-140 degrees.
Are you saying that if I were to have four house batteries fully charged, I wouldn’t be able to run a 15,000-20,000 RV air conditioner for several hours?
(A generator while driving also isn’t really practical) |
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WestyWanter Samba Member
Joined: February 15, 2017 Posts: 459 Location: San Diego
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Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:56 pm Post subject: Re: Air conditioning options in 2021 |
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tobloyd wrote: |
shagginwagon83 wrote: |
I remember OTG camper posted about this. If I recall the AC running was around 100 amp DC load. It isn't really practical at all. However some big sprinters with 600-1000aH of LiFePo4 it is possible to do it. That's a ton of space.
I'd really recommend some GOOD 12v fans. I love my Camfro Ultimate fan. But if I were to go to the beach it would be plug in AC. |
Thanks, but you lost me again in the electrical talk. Fans aren’t enough to keep a baby safe when it’s 115 degrees out. The inside of the van gets to 130-140 degrees.
Are you saying that if I were to have four house batteries fully charged, I wouldn’t be able to run a 15,000-20,000 RV air conditioner for several hours?
(A generator while driving also isn’t really practical) |
When you say 15,000-20,000 AC I assume you're talking BTU? That is a wayyy over kill for the the sqft of the van. You need only a 5000 BTU unit likely.
Now for cooling on the go I personally have aftermarket Bher AC unit. I'd suggest getting reflective insulation for all the windows while driving along with insulation for inside the body if possible to get every advantage. A van I went and looked at had a window unit wired where the fridge sits in the westy a little 5000BTU, owner claimed that with his 400 watts of solar+ a 100aH battery he could run the AC unit indefinitely if the van had good sun... Idk how accurate or the math behind this but I'm sure someone far smarter than me will chime in.
Although the math and electrical stuff is complicated it sounds like this is going to be nearly a life support system in your climate. Unfortunately theres no perfect system seemingly and I suggest you take the couple hours to digest all things that are solar, battery, AC and past trials people have done.
*also a small honda generator while driving might be the most practical thing for size+money... although a little hill billy in my opinion. |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32433 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22573 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:47 am Post subject: Re: Air conditioning options in 2021 |
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At a campsite, you need a generator and a 5000 BTU/ hr unit and a solution to seal the unit in a window.
All of the miracle cooling crap being hawked is exactly that. It seems like there is lot more being hawked right now. _________________ .ssS! |
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dobryan Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006 Posts: 16476 Location: Brookeville, MD
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Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22573 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:22 am Post subject: Re: Air conditioning options in 2021 |
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Ac primer in a nutshell, swamp coolers and ice buckets not covered here
AC units don’t “make cold air” the move heat from inside to outside.
First conclusion. Any AC unit that doesn’t vent the hot air outside is thus a heaters , not an air conditioner
We rate AC units in BTU per hour , or BTU/hr. That’s Energy divided by time, that is how much heat they can move in a given amount of time
(It’s common to see them rated as BTU HOurs which is wrong)
Only the US and Yemen use BTU/ hours , the rest of the world uses watts. We also use watts to describe our electrical systems on our cars, so it’s nice to use the same unit for everything.
Watts are also energy per unit time ( actual names Joules / second )
So an AC moves heat at a given rate, and uses energy to move this heat. It turns out that if you want to move 3 barrels of heat ( any unit) you need about one barrel of energy to do it, from thermodynamics.
It also turns out, because the Creator loves us, that the conversion from BTU/hr to Watts is ...
1 BTU/hr = 0.29 watts.
So now you know the electrical wattage draw if any AC unit given the rating !
Getting there.....
Common question. My 5000 BTU/ hr home ac cools my bedroom nicely , is that big enough for my car which is tiny?
Answer. No, by about 4x. It turns out cars need massive AC to cool on the road for a number of reasons. It will work in a shady campsite with the car still, but not otherwise.
In any event, that tiny 5000 btu/hr AC needs 500 watts of electricity to run using the two rules above.
One car battery can support 500 watts output for about 60 minutes of time. _________________ .ssS! |
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tobloyd Samba Member
Joined: May 28, 2018 Posts: 184 Location: Fountain Hills, AZ
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Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:51 am Post subject: Re: Air conditioning options in 2021 |
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Abscate wrote: |
Ac primer in a nutshell, swamp coolers and ice buckets not covered here
AC units don’t “make cold air” the move heat from inside to outside.
First conclusion. Any AC unit that doesn’t vent the hot air outside is thus a heaters , not an air conditioner
We rate AC units in BTU per hour , or BTU/hr. That’s Energy divided by time, that is how much heat they can move in a given amount of time
(It’s common to see them rated as BTU HOurs which is wrong)
Only the US and Yemen use BTU/ hours , the rest of the world uses watts. We also use watts to describe our electrical systems on our cars, so it’s nice to use the same unit for everything.
Watts are also energy per unit time ( actual names Joules / second )
So an AC moves heat at a given rate, and uses energy to move this heat. It turns out that if you want to move 3 barrels of heat ( any unit) you need about one barrel of energy to do it, from thermodynamics.
It also turns out, because the Creator loves us, that the conversion from BTU/hr to Watts is ...
1 BTU/hr = 0.29 watts.
So now you know the electrical wattage draw if any AC unit given the rating !
Getting there.....
Common question. My 5000 BTU/ hr home ac cools my bedroom nicely , is that big enough for my car which is tiny?
Answer. No, by about 4x. It turns out cars need massive AC to cool on the road for a number of reasons. It will work in a shady campsite with the car still, but not otherwise.
In any event, that tiny 5000 btu/hr AC needs 500 watts of electricity to run using the two rules above.
One car battery can support 500 watts output for about 60 minutes of time. |
So it sounds like my van (which already struggles to go the speed limit) needs a new engine for practical cooling on the go.
How then are Teslas able to pipe cool AC off battery power alone? |
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tobloyd Samba Member
Joined: May 28, 2018 Posts: 184 Location: Fountain Hills, AZ
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Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:53 am Post subject: Re: Air conditioning options in 2021 |
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djkeev wrote: |
Engine driven A/C compressor technology has cone a long way since the 1980’s!
Modern A/C compressors vary their power draw based upon need.
Even the most basic Sanden is way better than the old York units.
Read up on compressors, a modern one may serve you just fine.
I've often wondered why a Van's A/C system could not be fitting with a 110 v shore power compressor also.
When under way, the engine compressor moves the gases. When parked, tge shire power moves the gases.
You of course need to cool the evaporator too but shore power electric fans can do that.
Dave |
Maybe the increased efficiency is how Tesla manages to cool using only batteries? |
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dobryan Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006 Posts: 16476 Location: Brookeville, MD
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Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:27 am Post subject: Re: Air conditioning options in 2021 |
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tobloyd wrote: |
Abscate wrote: |
In any event, that tiny 5000 btu/hr AC needs 500 watts of electricity to run using the two rules above.
One car battery can support 500 watts output for about 60 minutes of time. |
So it sounds like my van (which already struggles to go the speed limit) needs a new engine for practical cooling on the go.
How then are Teslas able to pipe cool AC off battery power alone? |
A Tesla has a battery bank of 75,000 Watt hours or more.
Massively powerful very expensive batteries is the reason. _________________ Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2002 Subaru EJ25 and Peloquin TBD
"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson
MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646
Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371
The Western Syncro build
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794 |
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tobloyd Samba Member
Joined: May 28, 2018 Posts: 184 Location: Fountain Hills, AZ
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Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:41 am Post subject: Re: Air conditioning options in 2021 |
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[quote="dobryan"][quote="tobloyd"]
Abscate wrote: |
A Tesla has a battery bank of 75,000 Watt hours or more.
Massively powerful very expensive batteries is the reason. |
This thousand dollar thing? Could I run an AC off it?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/274708321523?chn=ps&g...2EQAvD_BwE |
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4Gears4Tires Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2018 Posts: 2983 Location: MD
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Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:52 am Post subject: Re: Air conditioning options in 2021 |
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Yes, you can. You can run an AC off a regular car battery, that's not the issue. The issue is how long. That battery module is 12"x26"x3". A Tesla has something like 15 of them. Probably if you had 3, a Dometic roof top AC unit, an inverter, and a good grasp of electronics you could make it happen and get a decent use out of it. I wouldn't try it though.
If your windows aren't tinted, a high quality tint can really help as well. _________________ '87 Syncro
Ferric Oxyhydroxide Superleggera Edition
Last edited by 4Gears4Tires on Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:53 am; edited 1 time in total |
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skills@eurocarsplus Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007 Posts: 16803 Location: sticksville, ct.
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Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:53 am Post subject: Re: Air conditioning options in 2021 |
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tesla also uses a 12v a/c compressor which can be had for a small bucket of money. many hybrids also use this technology _________________
gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
Jake Raby wrote: |
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
Brian wrote: |
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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dgbeatty Samba Member
Joined: October 26, 2006 Posts: 702 Location: Sacramento
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Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 2:44 pm Post subject: Re: Air conditioning options in 2021 |
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Uh you do know that the Tesla AC and heater are 400volt systems don't you. _________________ Schau in das Buch |
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82westyrabbit Samba Member
Joined: March 02, 2015 Posts: 957 Location: Ma
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Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 2:45 pm Post subject: Re: Air conditioning options in 2021 |
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Just for a point of reference. I lived in Dallas last summer. I hung 5000btu air conditioner out of the left middle window with a 2000watt generator on the rear bumper. It sort of worked. It really needed a lot bigger air conditioning unit but that’s the biggest air conditioner that would fit in the window and about as much power as I had. I tried larger units but the generator wouldn’t power them. If you are really just worried about a child in the back, it kept the back cool. If you are trying to stay married your wife won’t de happy. Camping it cools the van just fine but the generator is annoying. To me and others. In the end my solution was to move north. As you can see this is probably not the best answer. John |
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sjbartnik Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2011 Posts: 5986 Location: Brooklyn
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Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 3:48 pm Post subject: Re: Air conditioning options in 2021 |
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tobloyd wrote: |
I get a bit lost in the amps/watts/volts discussions, so I’m wondering if smarter people can clue me in as to whether any new good options have come on the market in the past few years to cool my 1983, |
Basic laws of physics have not changed since 1983. _________________ 1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650 |
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Bleyseng Samba Member
Joined: July 03, 2005 Posts: 4752 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 4:50 pm Post subject: Re: Air conditioning options in 2021 |
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Rebuild the engine to a Raby Camper Special=100hp-125ftlbs of torque. More than a WBX 2.1. Install a modern AC set _________________ 70 Ghia Black convert-9/69 build date-stock w/133k 1600 SP-barn find now with a rebuilt tranny and engine
77 Westy 2.0L w/Ljet, Camper Special engine-95hp and with LSD!(sold)
76 Porsche 914 2.1L L20c, 120hp Djet (sold)
87 Syncro Westy Titan Red 2.1L 2 knob 100k miles |
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wcdennis Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2004 Posts: 954 Location: Winston-Salem NC
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jlrftype7 Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2018 Posts: 3549 Location: Chicago
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Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2021 11:58 am Post subject: Re: Air conditioning options in 2021 |
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dgbeatty wrote: |
Uh you do know that the Tesla AC and heater are 400volt systems don't you. |
Jaguar is the same for the I-Pace, 400 volt A/C compressor and a High Voltage Heater for Cabin heat if needed.
The heater supports the heat pump, and if needed ,heats the coolant to the High Voltage battery circuit to try and keep the HV battery above 14C/ 58F appox.. Plan on watching your range drop quickly when that heater is on... _________________ '68 Westy- my first VW and vehicle/Bus- long gone.- sold it to a traveling Swiss couple....
'67 Type 3 Fastback, my 2nd car- gone
'69 Semi-Auto Stick Shift Beetle-gone
2017 MINI Coopers, our current DDs
‘84 Tin Top - Hilga....Auto |
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