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Air conditioning options in 2021
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tobloyd
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:14 pm    Post subject: Air conditioning options in 2021 Reply with quote

I get a bit lost in the amps/watts/volts discussions, so I’m wondering if smarter people can clue me in as to whether any new good options have come on the market in the past few years to cool my 1983, 70 hp, air-cooled vanagon while driving. Obviously running a powerful AC off the engine is a no go, but what about installing 2 or 3 marine batteries under the bench seat, maintaining them with a plug-in battery charger at night, and running a DC powered RV air conditioner off them during road trips?

How many batteries would I need charge to get, say, 5 hours of ice-cold AC?

I live in the 110-120 degree AZ heat, so I really need to solve this problem if I’m going to be able to take road trips and go camping with my one year old
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Air conditioning options in 2021 Reply with quote

I remember OTG camper posted about this. If I recall the AC running was around 100 amp DC load. It isn't really practical at all. However some big sprinters with 600-1000aH of LiFePo4 it is possible to do it. That's a ton of space.

I'd really recommend some GOOD 12v fans. I love my Camfro Ultimate fan. But if I were to go to the beach it would be plug in AC.
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tobloyd
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Air conditioning options in 2021 Reply with quote

shagginwagon83 wrote:
I remember OTG camper posted about this. If I recall the AC running was around 100 amp DC load. It isn't really practical at all. However some big sprinters with 600-1000aH of LiFePo4 it is possible to do it. That's a ton of space.

I'd really recommend some GOOD 12v fans. I love my Camfro Ultimate fan. But if I were to go to the beach it would be plug in AC.


Thanks, but you lost me again in the electrical talk. Fans aren’t enough to keep a baby safe when it’s 115 degrees out. The inside of the van gets to 130-140 degrees.

Are you saying that if I were to have four house batteries fully charged, I wouldn’t be able to run a 15,000-20,000 RV air conditioner for several hours?

(A generator while driving also isn’t really practical)
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WestyWanter
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Air conditioning options in 2021 Reply with quote

tobloyd wrote:
shagginwagon83 wrote:
I remember OTG camper posted about this. If I recall the AC running was around 100 amp DC load. It isn't really practical at all. However some big sprinters with 600-1000aH of LiFePo4 it is possible to do it. That's a ton of space.

I'd really recommend some GOOD 12v fans. I love my Camfro Ultimate fan. But if I were to go to the beach it would be plug in AC.


Thanks, but you lost me again in the electrical talk. Fans aren’t enough to keep a baby safe when it’s 115 degrees out. The inside of the van gets to 130-140 degrees.

Are you saying that if I were to have four house batteries fully charged, I wouldn’t be able to run a 15,000-20,000 RV air conditioner for several hours?

(A generator while driving also isn’t really practical)


When you say 15,000-20,000 AC I assume you're talking BTU? That is a wayyy over kill for the the sqft of the van. You need only a 5000 BTU unit likely.

Now for cooling on the go I personally have aftermarket Bher AC unit. I'd suggest getting reflective insulation for all the windows while driving along with insulation for inside the body if possible to get every advantage. A van I went and looked at had a window unit wired where the fridge sits in the westy a little 5000BTU, owner claimed that with his 400 watts of solar+ a 100aH battery he could run the AC unit indefinitely if the van had good sun... Idk how accurate or the math behind this but I'm sure someone far smarter than me will chime in.

Although the math and electrical stuff is complicated it sounds like this is going to be nearly a life support system in your climate. Unfortunately theres no perfect system seemingly and I suggest you take the couple hours to digest all things that are solar, battery, AC and past trials people have done.

*also a small honda generator while driving might be the most practical thing for size+money... although a little hill billy in my opinion.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:45 am    Post subject: Re: Air conditioning options in 2021 Reply with quote

Engine driven A/C compressor technology has cone a long way since the 1980’s!
Modern A/C compressors vary their power draw based upon need.
Even the most basic Sanden is way better than the old York units.
Read up on compressors, a modern one may serve you just fine.

I've often wondered why a Van's A/C system could not be fitting with a 110 v shore power compressor also.
When under way, the engine compressor moves the gases. When parked, tge shire power moves the gases.
You of course need to cool the evaporator too but shore power electric fans can do that.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:47 am    Post subject: Re: Air conditioning options in 2021 Reply with quote

At a campsite, you need a generator and a 5000 BTU/ hr unit and a solution to seal the unit in a window.

All of the miracle cooling crap being hawked is exactly that. It seems like there is lot more being hawked right now.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:30 am    Post subject: Re: Air conditioning options in 2021 Reply with quote

While technically possible it is not practical to power a 5000 btu air conditioner off of batteries for several hours. The amount of batteries needed would be excessive and unpractical and very expensive.

Your engine can power a/c on it's own. You will just drive slower.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:22 am    Post subject: Re: Air conditioning options in 2021 Reply with quote

Ac primer in a nutshell, swamp coolers and ice buckets not covered here

AC units don’t “make cold air” the move heat from inside to outside.

First conclusion. Any AC unit that doesn’t vent the hot air outside is thus a heaters , not an air conditioner

We rate AC units in BTU per hour , or BTU/hr. That’s Energy divided by time, that is how much heat they can move in a given amount of time

(It’s common to see them rated as BTU HOurs which is wrong)

Only the US and Yemen use BTU/ hours , the rest of the world uses watts. We also use watts to describe our electrical systems on our cars, so it’s nice to use the same unit for everything.

Watts are also energy per unit time ( actual names Joules / second )

So an AC moves heat at a given rate, and uses energy to move this heat. It turns out that if you want to move 3 barrels of heat ( any unit) you need about one barrel of energy to do it, from thermodynamics.

It also turns out, because the Creator loves us, that the conversion from BTU/hr to Watts is ...

1 BTU/hr = 0.29 watts.

So now you know the electrical wattage draw if any AC unit given the rating !

Getting there.....

Common question. My 5000 BTU/ hr home ac cools my bedroom nicely , is that big enough for my car which is tiny?

Answer. No, by about 4x. It turns out cars need massive AC to cool on the road for a number of reasons. It will work in a shady campsite with the car still, but not otherwise.

In any event, that tiny 5000 btu/hr AC needs 500 watts of electricity to run using the two rules above.

One car battery can support 500 watts output for about 60 minutes of time.
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tobloyd
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:51 am    Post subject: Re: Air conditioning options in 2021 Reply with quote

Abscate wrote:
Ac primer in a nutshell, swamp coolers and ice buckets not covered here

AC units don’t “make cold air” the move heat from inside to outside.

First conclusion. Any AC unit that doesn’t vent the hot air outside is thus a heaters , not an air conditioner

We rate AC units in BTU per hour , or BTU/hr. That’s Energy divided by time, that is how much heat they can move in a given amount of time

(It’s common to see them rated as BTU HOurs which is wrong)

Only the US and Yemen use BTU/ hours , the rest of the world uses watts. We also use watts to describe our electrical systems on our cars, so it’s nice to use the same unit for everything.

Watts are also energy per unit time ( actual names Joules / second )

So an AC moves heat at a given rate, and uses energy to move this heat. It turns out that if you want to move 3 barrels of heat ( any unit) you need about one barrel of energy to do it, from thermodynamics.

It also turns out, because the Creator loves us, that the conversion from BTU/hr to Watts is ...

1 BTU/hr = 0.29 watts.

So now you know the electrical wattage draw if any AC unit given the rating !

Getting there.....

Common question. My 5000 BTU/ hr home ac cools my bedroom nicely , is that big enough for my car which is tiny?

Answer. No, by about 4x. It turns out cars need massive AC to cool on the road for a number of reasons. It will work in a shady campsite with the car still, but not otherwise.

In any event, that tiny 5000 btu/hr AC needs 500 watts of electricity to run using the two rules above.

One car battery can support 500 watts output for about 60 minutes of time.


So it sounds like my van (which already struggles to go the speed limit) needs a new engine for practical cooling on the go.

How then are Teslas able to pipe cool AC off battery power alone?
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tobloyd
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:53 am    Post subject: Re: Air conditioning options in 2021 Reply with quote

djkeev wrote:
Engine driven A/C compressor technology has cone a long way since the 1980’s!
Modern A/C compressors vary their power draw based upon need.
Even the most basic Sanden is way better than the old York units.
Read up on compressors, a modern one may serve you just fine.

I've often wondered why a Van's A/C system could not be fitting with a 110 v shore power compressor also.
When under way, the engine compressor moves the gases. When parked, tge shire power moves the gases.
You of course need to cool the evaporator too but shore power electric fans can do that.

Dave


Maybe the increased efficiency is how Tesla manages to cool using only batteries?
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dobryan
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:27 am    Post subject: Re: Air conditioning options in 2021 Reply with quote

tobloyd wrote:
Abscate wrote:


In any event, that tiny 5000 btu/hr AC needs 500 watts of electricity to run using the two rules above.

One car battery can support 500 watts output for about 60 minutes of time.


So it sounds like my van (which already struggles to go the speed limit) needs a new engine for practical cooling on the go.

How then are Teslas able to pipe cool AC off battery power alone?


A Tesla has a battery bank of 75,000 Watt hours or more.

Massively powerful very expensive batteries is the reason.
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tobloyd
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:41 am    Post subject: Re: Air conditioning options in 2021 Reply with quote

[quote="dobryan"][quote="tobloyd"]
Abscate wrote:


A Tesla has a battery bank of 75,000 Watt hours or more.

Massively powerful very expensive batteries is the reason.


This thousand dollar thing? Could I run an AC off it?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/274708321523?chn=ps&g...2EQAvD_BwE
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:52 am    Post subject: Re: Air conditioning options in 2021 Reply with quote

Yes, you can. You can run an AC off a regular car battery, that's not the issue. The issue is how long. That battery module is 12"x26"x3". A Tesla has something like 15 of them. Probably if you had 3, a Dometic roof top AC unit, an inverter, and a good grasp of electronics you could make it happen and get a decent use out of it. I wouldn't try it though.

If your windows aren't tinted, a high quality tint can really help as well.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:53 am    Post subject: Re: Air conditioning options in 2021 Reply with quote

tesla also uses a 12v a/c compressor which can be had for a small bucket of money. many hybrids also use this technology
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 2:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Air conditioning options in 2021 Reply with quote

Uh you do know that the Tesla AC and heater are 400volt systems don't you.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 2:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Air conditioning options in 2021 Reply with quote

Just for a point of reference. I lived in Dallas last summer. I hung 5000btu air conditioner out of the left middle window with a 2000watt generator on the rear bumper. It sort of worked. It really needed a lot bigger air conditioning unit but that’s the biggest air conditioner that would fit in the window and about as much power as I had. I tried larger units but the generator wouldn’t power them. If you are really just worried about a child in the back, it kept the back cool. If you are trying to stay married your wife won’t de happy. Camping it cools the van just fine but the generator is annoying. To me and others. In the end my solution was to move north. As you can see this is probably not the best answer. John
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 3:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Air conditioning options in 2021 Reply with quote

tobloyd wrote:
I get a bit lost in the amps/watts/volts discussions, so I’m wondering if smarter people can clue me in as to whether any new good options have come on the market in the past few years to cool my 1983,


Basic laws of physics have not changed since 1983. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 4:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Air conditioning options in 2021 Reply with quote

Rebuild the engine to a Raby Camper Special=100hp-125ftlbs of torque. More than a WBX 2.1. Install a modern AC set
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 6:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Air conditioning options in 2021 Reply with quote

A solution. But not a cheap one. [url] https://www.nomadiccooling.com/product-page/dometic-coolair-2000-rtx-12v[/url]

I can’t seem to get this link to work. Look up: Dometic CoolAir 2000 RTX 12V.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2021 11:58 am    Post subject: Re: Air conditioning options in 2021 Reply with quote

dgbeatty wrote:
Uh you do know that the Tesla AC and heater are 400volt systems don't you.
Jaguar is the same for the I-Pace, 400 volt A/C compressor and a High Voltage Heater for Cabin heat if needed.
The heater supports the heat pump, and if needed ,heats the coolant to the High Voltage battery circuit to try and keep the HV battery above 14C/ 58F appox.. Plan on watching your range drop quickly when that heater is on... Razz
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