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Turn signal/emergency flasher wiring issue
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 6:21 am    Post subject: Re: Turn signal/emergency flasher wiring issue Reply with quote

Resurrecting this thread again as I'm having trouble upgrading my lights to include hazard lights. I have a non-stock setup, so please excuse the long post. I've tried to clearly describe what I have, and I have several questions...

The truck was converted to 12V a while ago and I have recently (and successfully) fitted custom-made LED units behind the stock bubble tail lights. They're wired so I have stop and tail and have separate amber LEDs for turn (3 separate connections). So, I have dedicated wires serving the indicators on each corner.

I am using an electronic flasher relay to address the load issue introduced by the LEDs centrally, rather than via resistors on each unit.

The front indicators are stock and retain the original amber incandescent bulbs in them (the electronic flasher unit can handle the mix of LEDs and incandescents).

I'm now trying to add 4-way hazard flashing by replicating the '63 schematic up front... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/wiring/bus_63_USA_4-way.jpg


I have:-

>A '63 '88' bus hazard switch
>This relay for hazards (5 pin changeover 2 x 20A INDEPENDENT outputs)...https://www.altecautomotive.co.uk/5-pin-automotive...3166-p.asp
>My existing CF14 3 PIN flasher relay compatible with LEDs (I've been using this fine with the LED units described above).
>My existing six-wire indicator switch.


When I tried connecting everything up, the rear indicators (LED) flashed correctly on the indicator switch and hazards. The only strange behaviour was that the hazard flashing would only work if the indicator stalk was in the centre position.

The fronts flashed correctly on the indicator switch, but stayed on constantly on the hazards (lit but not flashing).

What would cause that behaviour? The flasher relay alone has been happy with the mix of incandescents on the front and LEDs on the back up until I tried adding in hazard/4-way flashing as per the above.

Could it have anything to do with the 3 pin flasher relay that I've been using? Should I switch to a 4 pin flasher relay?
If so, what do I need to look for regarding the K pin (dashboard lights)?
I've seen a few that have schematics showing the K pin going to the bulb and on to ground. Is that correct, or is that the wrong type? (Example... https://www.busters-accessories.co.uk/en/category/10305030000/article/379160/)

At the moment, power is supplied via a switched live feed from the fuse box. I'd like to get to the point where the hazards will work with the ignition off to avoid cooking the points and coil. Does that just require that I move the feed to both the hazard and flasher relays to an unswitched live? Or can the flasher relay stay on switched live and the hazard move over to the unswitched?

Also, does the switch itself need to be grounded via the dashboard connection (I was testing it with the switch loose, rather than installed).

In the course of checking that the connections were correct, I killed the electronic flasher relay (they're sensitive buggers), so I've reverted the wiring back for now and ordered a new 3 pin relay so I can drive it, but I don't want to give up entirely.
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 8:59 am    Post subject: Re: Turn signal/emergency flasher wiring issue Reply with quote

Who.Me? wrote:

Could it have anything to do with the 3 pin flasher relay that I've been using? Should I switch to a 4 pin flasher relay?
If so, what do I need to look for regarding the K pin (dashboard lights)?
I've seen a few that have schematics showing the K pin going to the bulb and on to ground. Is that correct, or is that the wrong type? (Example... https://www.busters-accessories.co.uk/en/category/10305030000/article/379160/)

At the moment, power is supplied via a switched live feed from the fuse box. I'd like to get to the point where the hazards will work with the ignition off to avoid cooking the points and coil. Does that just require that I move the feed to both the hazard and flasher relays to an unswitched live? Or can the flasher relay stay on switched live and the hazard move over to the unswitched?

Also, does the switch itself need to be grounded via the dashboard connection (I was testing it with the switch loose, rather than installed).

In the course of checking that the connections were correct, I killed the electronic flasher relay (they're sensitive buggers), so I've reverted the wiring back for now and ordered a new 3 pin relay so I can drive it, but I don't want to give up entirely.


Yes, having the correct three pin with ground flasher relay is most important. That relay you posted a link to will not likely work without a lot more wiring and possible electronics.

Look again at the 1963 wiring diagrams that focus only on the turn signals and E-flasher separately. Those only go to ground in the turn signal relay, after voltage passing thru the TS/Flasher bulb.

Switching supply power to switched, will result in the E-flashers not working with power switched off. Again you need the correct turn signal relay you need to work with the E-flashers. See previous posted relay parts numbers, the NOS ones do show up now and then.

Again look to the wiring diagrams about the grounding of the E-flasher switch, then look at the turn signal flasher relay. See the kind of X-Mas tree icon at the TS relay? That indicates that the TS relay is grounded. Check the E-flasher switch. Any grounding icon there?
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 12:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Turn signal/emergency flasher wiring issue Reply with quote

Thanks.
Who.Me? wrote:

Could it have anything to do with the 3 pin flasher relay that I've been using? Should I switch to a 4 pin flasher relay?

Eric&Barb wrote:
Yes, having the correct three pin with ground flasher relay is most important


I think we're on the same page there. I'm counting ground as a pin, because the relays are the cubic plastic units that are grounded through one of the pins.

I've just recognised that 15 on the ignition switch is +ve, so I need a flasher relay where the K pin goes to +ve.

Eric&Barb wrote:
See previous posted relay parts numbers, the NOS ones do show up now and then


For my installation, I need an electronic relay that can handle the reduced load resulting from the LED units in the taillights.

Eric&Barb wrote:
Switching supply power to switched, will result in the E-flashers not working with power switched off.


My supply power is currently on a switched live fuseway. So, to clarify, I need to move both to an unswitched fuseway? (And as a side-effect the normal indicators will function with the ignition off too?)? If so, that's fine.

Eric&Barb wrote:
Again look to the wiring diagrams about the grounding of the E-flasher switch, then look at the turn signal flasher relay. See the kind of X-Mas tree icon at the TS relay? That indicates that the TS relay is grounded. Check the E-flasher switch. Any grounding icon there?


Understood.
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PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 4:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Turn signal/emergency flasher wiring issue Reply with quote

Think you will find the OG relays (with using resistors for the LEDs) will tend to last decades, where the made in the far East LED relays do not. Unless you can find an LED relay used by a major automobile manufacture today that might be robust enough....

Yes, both the TS and E-flasher work with ignition switched to "Off" position, in our DEC62 built SC with proper OG relay.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Turn signal/emergency flasher wiring issue Reply with quote

Found this relay thread in the beetle forum:

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=511968
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:29 am    Post subject: Re: Turn signal/emergency flasher wiring issue Reply with quote

Sorry, back again with this (see above post from 2019)

I bought a NOS correct Hella 12V 4 x 21W mechanical canister-type relay a while back and spent a couple of hours on Friday wiring it up as per the '63 hazard lights arrangement.

I got it to work initially, but only with the ignition on and when I tried moving the indicator stalk with the hazards on, it all went to pot.

I ended up blowing a couple of fuses, and to be honest; when it was working, I wasn't impressed by the canister relay (slow to respond and too quiet). The 63 arrangement also means you cannot have hazards with the ignition off, unless you move both the indicator and hazard relay to a permanent live feed and I don't want that.

So; I took it all back out and reverted to the solid state relay, but in the course of wiring it up, it occurred to me that the only reason I was following the '63 schematic was so I could use the period-correct switch, but a switch is just a switch, right?

So to the point of this post:- is there any reason why I can't just use a second solid-state relay powered by positive live, switched by one pole of the hazard switch and with the output connected in parallel to all four of the indicators and the 'tell tale' light in the speedo? Like this?...

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I figure it would need blocking diodes to keep the circuits separate?

VW's solution was basically to use the hazard relay to flash the rear indicators and the existing indicator relaty to flash the fronts. I'm guessing that was to avoid overloading the old mechanical relays?

Modern transistor relays don't seem that bothered about what load they have on them, so I figure one relay could probably cope with the load of all four indicators?

At the end of the day; all I want is to be able to use the period-correct switch and to have the hazards operate on permanent live, with the indicators on switched live. I'm not precious about what relays I use - the wiring will all be behind the kick panels.

So will the above work?
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Turn signal/emergency flasher wiring issue Reply with quote

In the original '63 (USA) circuit, the 4-way flasher function and turn signals use the same single flasher. The 4-way flasher switch has one input and three separate outputs, all of which get connected together when the switch is activated. In 4-way flash mode, the 4-way flasher switch connects the flasher directly to both rear turn lamps, and also connects the flasher to the coil of a relay (4-way flasher relay). This relay has a power input and two isolated outputs, which are all connected together when the relay is active, and which then connect battery power to the front turn lamps. This keeps the load on the flasher to only two lamps (the relay coil load being insignificant). Because the stock flasher was load-sensitive, this kept the blink rate constant.

These days, there is no reason you couldn't use a standard switch with three diodes on the output to isolate the connected loads, or even four diodes, and skip the 4-way flasher relay altogether.

I don't understand why moving the turn switch should cause a problem, as doing do merely connects lamps to the flasher, where they are connected anyhow. The reason must be that the electronic flasher is sensitive to being back-fed by battery power from the 4-way flasher relay. Maybe connect a diode in series with the e-flasher relay output so that it can't see any back-fed voltage? Or use diodes to eliminate the 4-way flasher relay (as mentioned above) thus eliminating the source of the back-fed voltage altogether?

I would avoid trying to do this using two flashers, as there would probably be more issues than adding diodes could fix...
Note: in the USA wiring, the turn signals and 4-way flashers ARE connected to a continuous live feed... See below.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 2:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Turn signal/emergency flasher wiring issue Reply with quote

telford dorr wrote:
These days, there is no reason you couldn't use a standard switch with three diodes on the output to isolate the connected loads, or even four diodes, and skip the 4-way flasher relay altogether.


Thanks. Do you mean wire the hazard switch in parallel to the indicator switch, so either would energise the relay, but the hazard would run to all four (five with the speedo bulb) lamps? If so, where would you put the blocking diodes?

One of my aims is/was to be able to switch the hazards via the permanent live, while keeping the indicators on switched live.

I think my concern about having the indicator switch & relay on permanent live was that there might be a possiblity of the (rather primative) indicator switch allowing a path to ground that would drain the battery without me realising.

Thinking about it; I guess that can't happen because the current could only flow when the relay was energised, so it would be obvious because lamps would be flashing? If that's the case, I could cope with having the indicators and hazards on permanent live.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 2:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Turn signal/emergency flasher wiring issue Reply with quote

The remaining issue is going to be the indicator light. The way it's powered, it requires a 4 pin flasher relay, and thus won't be compatible with your e-flasher relay.

Possible solution:

- connect a diode rated for the total lamp load (plus a margin) in series with the output of the flasher (anode to flasher, cathode to turn and 4-way flasher switch).

- connect a 1 amp diode to the wire going to the (disconnected) dash indicator lamp wire (anode to lamp).

- connect the cathodes of the above two diodes together.

Note: the dash indicator will only flash when the ignition switch is on. The diodes keep the dash indicator from either loading or back-feeding the flasher. When the flasher is between flashes, the indicator lamp will ground out through the appropriate turn lamps. If using LED turn lamps, they may not pass enough current to light the indicator, so another solution may be required - try it and see.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 2:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Turn signal/emergency flasher wiring issue Reply with quote

Who.Me? wrote:
Do you mean wire the hazard switch in parallel to the indicator switch, so either would energise the relay, but the hazard would run to all four (five with the speedo bulb) lamps? If so, where would you put the blocking diodes?

You would put a diode in series with each lamp load not otherwise isolated from each other. The indicator lamp is a separate problem: see post above.

Quote:
Thinking about it; I guess that can't happen because the current could only flow when the relay was energised, so it would be obvious because lamps would be flashing? If that's the case, I could cope with having the indicators and hazards on permanent live.

Correct. That's the way VW did it on US models.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:07 am    Post subject: Re: Turn signal/emergency flasher wiring issue Reply with quote

Something like this?...
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Turn signal/emergency flasher wiring issue Reply with quote

Yes, that's it. Let me know if there are any issues.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:15 am    Post subject: Re: Turn signal/emergency flasher wiring issue Reply with quote

telford dorr wrote:
Yes, that's it. Let me know if there are any issues.


Will do.

I already had some 50V 3A diodes on order that should do for each of the lamps (the fronts are 21W incandescent, the rears are LED but with load resistors).

Just need to order a beefier one for the output from 49a, then I can try this out.

Thanks for your help. Smile
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Turn signal/emergency flasher wiring issue Reply with quote

telford dorr wrote:
Yes, that's it. Let me know if there are any issues.


It works!

I'm dispropotionately happy about how well this worked. It's a bit weird that the tell tale doesn't flash with the ignition off, but does if the ignition is on, but I can fix that with an extra bulb or LED behind the dash grill if necessary.

Really pleased with this. Very Happy

I appear to have a pipe organ on my dash too now. So many buttons. Laughing


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:14 am    Post subject: Re: Turn signal/emergency flasher wiring issue Reply with quote

Who.Me? wrote:

It works!


Well it seems that I spoke too soon (sort of). The switch circuit above works fine BUT if I operate the turn signal switch while the hazards are on, it pops the fuse.

After some diagnosis, it seems that the problem is with the indicator switch. If I detach the switch from the steering column, everything works fine.

I'm stumped as to why.

Closing either switch will allow the pulses of current to flow via terminal 49a of the relay along both branches to both switches.

The diodes prevent that current flowing back along the parallel branch if both switches are closed.

It shouldn't matter if both streams of current reach the bulbs or LEDs (I have bulbs up front and LEDs in the rears), because it's the same current just following different paths.

For some reason, when the indicator switch is closed, it creates a path to ground via the column though. There is no way to isolate the switch from the column because even if the body is isolated, it has to contact the cancelling ring. As soon as it does so, it blows the fuse.

Do I just have a duff indicator switch, or is there a practical way to isolate it from the column that I haven't thought of?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Turn signal/emergency flasher wiring issue Reply with quote

Pull the turn switch out of its housing and look for shorts, loose or bare wires, funky connections, etc. There should be NO electrical connection between any turn switch wire and the switch frame.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2021 2:35 am    Post subject: Re: Turn signal/emergency flasher wiring issue Reply with quote

telford dorr wrote:
There should be NO electrical connection between any turn switch wire and the switch frame.


Thanks for confirming. I have the switch out. I'll take a closer look at the connections.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 11, 2021 11:57 am    Post subject: Re: Turn signal/emergency flasher wiring issue Reply with quote

Who.Me? wrote:
Who.Me? wrote:

It works!


Well it seems that I spoke too soon (sort of). The switch circuit above works fine BUT if I operate the turn signal switch while the hazards are on, it pops the fuse.

After some diagnosis, it seems that the problem is with the indicator switch. If I detach the switch from the steering column, everything works fine.

I'm stumped as to why.

Closing either switch will allow the pulses of current to flow via terminal 49a of the relay along both branches to both switches.

The diodes prevent that current flowing back along the parallel branch if both switches are closed.

It shouldn't matter if both streams of current reach the bulbs or LEDs (I have bulbs up front and LEDs in the rears), because it's the same current just following different paths.

For some reason, when the indicator switch is closed, it creates a path to ground via the column though. There is no way to isolate the switch from the column because even if the body is isolated, it has to contact the cancelling ring. As soon as it does so, it blows the fuse.

Do I just have a duff indicator switch, or is there a practical way to isolate it from the column that I haven't thought of?


Problem solved. I added four more of the 50V 3A diodes on the wires on the output side of the indicator switch. It now works perfectly with the ignition on or off and with the indicators on or off.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 6:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Turn signal/emergency flasher wiring issue Reply with quote

Can you add those to your wiring diagram?
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:41 am    Post subject: Re: Turn signal/emergency flasher wiring issue Reply with quote

BarryL wrote:
Can you add those to your wiring diagram?


Amended diagram below. The components that I used are...

8 x 50V 3A diodes (anything 12V and over and at least 3A should do) e.g. 1N5400. These isolate the outputs from the ignition switch and the new hazard switch.

2 x 12V 45A diodes (the Amperage requirement needs to be sufficient for the current drawn by all the indicator bulbs) e.g. 12SQ045

1 x normally open switch. A headlight or wiper switch will work if you want something with an original style knob. Otherwise use any normally open pull- or rocker-switch.

1 x three terminal electronic flasher relay e.g. CF14 JL-02

(Optional - 1 x BA9 bulb or an LED to serve as a tell-tale when the ignition is off. I haven't bothered on mine.)

Edit - I've written 'tail lights' below. That should read 'indicator bulbs'...


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I spliced together four outputs from the hazard switch and connected those in to the existing indicator cable junction block alongside the outputs from the indicator switch.
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