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1800 Single port - early type 3
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Jason37
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:50 pm    Post subject: 1800 Single port - early type 3 Reply with quote

The early type 3s (pre 64) came equipped with a side draft 1500 that was rated for 48hp. Hardly enough for a heavier car especially with the Rocky Mountains less than an hour away, maybe an hour and 15 with the current motor. The first thought was to build a mild 1679 and keep the stock side draft as the engine bay in the early cars is quite a bit narrower than the late cars. Long story short, the build plan snowballed and is now a mild 1800. I will start with some pics first then go onto a parts list and pics of where I am currently at.

First the car.
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Then the current engine


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Then some carb test fits.

Stock dual carb on SP manifolds - linkage hits at WOT. I shortened an adjustable down rod and changed the angle at WOT so this should clear. Also, the idle shut offs have to be replaced with those from a pict 34 as they hit the body as well.

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I also tried them on stock dual ports, and found the angle of the manifolds actually increased the width by almost a 1/2, same with the ICTs, hence the SP route.

Weber ICT on stock sp type 3 manifolds give the most clearance. An option.
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ICTs on stock DP manifolds

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For fun I tried some dual port heads and HPMXs. There was a steel rulers width of room between the body and the fuel inlet. (I am going to keep these as an option and will test fit with a set of dual port heads once the long block is built)


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Parts list - most still in transit.

AS41 case - line bored first over
74mm CB crank
AA 5.325 short rods clearanced and balanced by Type E Motorsports
CB 2232 cam
CB lifters
Stock pushrods - will cut to length
Heads - Type E Motorsports single port specials. Single springs, 35/32 valves, 3 or 5 angle valve job, chromoly retainers (Im sure Brian will chime in with all the details)
88mm AA pistons
Mahle bearings
CB adjustable straight cuts
010 distributor

Carbs option 1 - stock pdsit with 28mm vents from CB.
Modified stock air cleaner - might add another inlet and pipe to increase incoming air.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Option 2 Weber ICTs with CSP linkage.

For these I was thinking of having a short velocity stack 3D printed and then running stack filters.


Last edited by Jason37 on Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Jason37
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:05 pm    Post subject: Re: 1800 Single port - early type 3 Reply with quote

Rockers CB 1.25 on intake, stock on exhaust. Solid shafts and elephant feet adjusters

DPR slightly lightened (15lb) 6v 200mm flywheel

Kennedy 1700 pressure plate

Oil pump 26mm CB maxi 3 in/out (opposite sides)cover modified to clear shroud

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Exhaust - old thunderbird header and glass pack


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The goal for this motor are:

1- no cutting of engine bay to fit
2- retain heat
3- maintain a reasonable speed in the mountains

Some design parameters:

1- 8.5-1 compression (50cc heads)
2- elevation 1098m/3600 feet
3- all rotating parts will be dynamically balanced (both fans included)

The case has been tapped for full flow, Hoover mods - not entirely sure if I will proceed.


Last edited by Jason37 on Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Jason37
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:14 pm    Post subject: Re: 1800 Single port - early type 3 Reply with quote

I want to thank Brian (Type E Motorsports) for the parts hook up and providing a ton of guidance (be sure to check out his killer suspension products also) and Alstrup for advising me against the stock sidedraft idea and got me thinking of the type 4. This motor was supposed to be a budget build that utilized stock parts and would get me rolling with more power this summer, as I have parts to build a 2270 type 4. The fab work to fit the type 4 (rear mount and custom heater boxes) put it on hold this winter as I had foot surgery that left both my feet in air casts for 12 weeks.

With the type 4 being narrower it makes a good alternative. I narrowed the tin and shortened the breastplate to make it cleaner. A whole hand width for space!


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Bus super sport from VS tucks up nicely


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But this will be a separate thread once get to it.
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Alstrup
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:39 am    Post subject: Re: 1800 Single port - early type 3 Reply with quote

OOOOOHHHH! 2270 type 4. - One of my favourite engine sizes Very Happy

Ahemm, well. With the sgl port. I assume you have chosen this combo in order to get more displacement without machining anything. Fair enough. Just be VERY carefull when you install those cylinders. They are paper thin and are prone to crack even on assembly. This is one of the few times where I would really recommend installing the pistons into the cylinder before attaching the pistons to the rods so you have least possible stress on the cylinder skirts. Also, with those rods you will probably run into excessive deck height, so you may have to machine the cylinders anyway.

Now, the 2232 is a cam that helps the engine make very nice torque in general. However, in a sgl port the engine gets a "diesel like" behaviure. Lots of power up to approx 4000 rpm and then its all over. Thats fine if you always short shift, not so nice if you like to drive spirited every once in a while. I wold chose the 2280 instead as it makes for a wider powerband though with a little less overall torque.

By 1800 cc the 32 Solex have outlived themselves. My choice would be the ICTs
(When I find the correct early 34 Solex carbs I have sometimes converted the 32s to 34, once even 35 mm on an engine where one of the requirement was stock appearance in the engine compartement. On that one we also gutted and enlarged the stock air cleaner assembly. Major job, but it worked well.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 9:23 am    Post subject: Re: 1800 Single port - early type 3 Reply with quote

Cool build idea! I love type 3s, I'd snap one up in a heartbeat if I found an affordable one! I always thought a mild type 4 in one would be a killer car. The single port is very fun too! I have a soft spot for them, and I'm stockpiling parts of my own to build one eventually.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 10:33 am    Post subject: Re: 1800 Single port - early type 3 Reply with quote

Sweet! if it's the original swing-axle setup, I would make the rear engine brace functional again.
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Jason37
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:01 pm    Post subject: Re: 1800 Single port - early type 3 Reply with quote

The cam is an easy thing to get, would you even consider the 2239? The original cam selection was based on the 1679 configuration and possibly use of the stock sidedraft, same with the pistons. After our discussion (Alstrup) you first advised against the stock carb due to lack of flow and then you talked me into the 2270.

Im going to play with the 1800 for now, and since you recommend the ICTs would you advise going with 1/2 spacers under the carbs to help create more of a plenum? I can machine the holes in my rear trans mount to gain a little more space if it will be of benefit.


As for the type 4, it is a slow work in progress. I designed a bellows adapter and had it 3D printed for test fitting. Steve (Clatter) had one printed and is testing it in his car. I looked at adapting the rear mount, and think it might be possible to add a mount to the stock fan shroud. I would also add a transmission mid mount, so everything would be locked down. The goal for the type 4 install is to make it appear as if it left the factory that way. Oh and the car is also 6v, but I have devised a way to have a 12v starting system.


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Alstrup
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:06 am    Post subject: Re: 1800 Single port - early type 3 Reply with quote

I did? Rolling Eyes Yeah, well, sounds like me Very Happy

Sadly I have liimted experience with type 3 engines and more cam. But I do know that in type 1 configurations cams in the 234-236 @ 0,50 begins to have a negative impact on idle. At the same time the lower rpm torque suffers some and the engine becomes "revy" If that is the behaviure youre after, - then no problem, but my sense is that in a type 3 that will not be the best behaviure. There are ways to get around that with grinding the cam on 110 or even 112 LC, but by doing that you typically get a better idle and lower end behaviure, bvut you also loose some torque again in favour of more upper end power. Cam grinders like Nowak have a different ramp to somewhat overcome that issue, but to my knowledge that is one of the few.
Im thinking of going the other direction and use a tried and true combo, the 2280 with 1,25 rockers and then use a 37,5 mm intake, so we need to get Brian with us on that idea. By doing it that way we get aaalmost the same upper end power as with a regular 2239 (due to the short ports and a few other issues with the sgl port) without loosing lower rpm torque. This way it will basicly behave like a stock dual port engine without air cleaners, only with about 50% more power.

A spacer below the carb will definitely help the intake charge no matter what. question is whether it will be a trade off with having less volume above the carb. There is only one way to find out. What you could do, and this will be a good thing anyway, is to enlarge the upper part of the manifold to something like 36-37 mm I.D. and taper it down tinto the manifold throat. That will help both the reversion but also help accumulate intake charge (Acting like a shock absorber)

If youre keen on trying a cam with more duration I would be looking at the 2234. But it is unknown territory for me. I have only used this cam once, in a fuel injected 1600 turbo. If you want that I have a couple of tricks up the sleeve that could help in making it work better, but thats mostly a discussion between Brian and me as that part will be for him to make in the heads.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:51 am    Post subject: Re: 1800 Single port - early type 3 Reply with quote

Thanks again for the advice.

I have ordered up a couple sets of the phenolic spacers so it will be easy to see the difference by adding a 1/4 at a time. I will have to check with Brian, but he may have already shipped the heads, or is close to. If it is an option to have the intake increased, then I will proceed. The intake manifold modification sounds interesting, I will see if I can find another set of manifolds to play around with.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:26 am    Post subject: Re: 1800 Single port - early type 3 Reply with quote

Jason37 wrote:
Rockers CB 1.25 on intake, stock on exhaust. Solid shafts and elephant feet adjusters

DPR slightly lightened (15lb) 6v 200mm flywheel

Kennedy 1700 pressure plate

Oil pump 26mm CB maxi 3 in/out (opposite sides)cover modified to clear shroud

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Exhaust - old thunderbird header and glass pack


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The goal for this motor are:

1- no cutting of engine bay to fit
2- retain heat
3- maintain a reasonable speed in the mountains

Some design parameters:

1- 8.5-1 compression (50cc heads)
2- elevation 1098m/3600 feet
3- all rotating parts will be dynamically balanced (both fans included)

The case has been tapped for full flow, Hoover mods - not entirely sure if I will proceed.
..................................................................................................................................the header you have in the photo .is not a thunderbird header . its a rare type3 cyclone header . that will out last any china header made now a days . the only thing is the 1"3/8 OD on the tubes is very small . and might hurt top end power i love the old school look of the cyclone headers great find . i all so very much like type 3 motors . good luck on your build spencerfvee
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Jason37
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:04 am    Post subject: Re: 1800 Single port - early type 3 Reply with quote

That is correct Spencer, I posted the correction in the exhaust post, but neglected to update it here. I ran it on my 69 notch 20 years ago for about a month, so I dont recall how it sounded or preformed.

Here are some pics of the header.


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Jason37
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 12:07 pm    Post subject: Re: 1800 Single port - early type 3 Reply with quote

sorry duplicate post

Last edited by Jason37 on Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Clatter
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:33 pm    Post subject: Re: 1800 Single port - early type 3 Reply with quote

How did i miss this thread?


What motor are you building, again?
Confused


Really digging the Cyclone..
It looks LOUD! Razz

Remember that you have pretty limited space above the motor in a type 3..
You might lose needed space above the carb if you put anything additional below it.

Maybe find a set of 34 PDSITs from a 1700/1800 Bus or 411/412?

How about a side-draft Weber DCOE, or maybe two of them??


You can make a type4 rear hanger bar that picks up the rear bumper brackets if you don't want to weld on the body of the car..
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W1K1
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:57 pm    Post subject: Re: 1800 Single port - early type 3 Reply with quote

Quote:
The early type 3s (pre 64) came equipped with a side draft 1500 that was rated for 48hp. Hardly enough for a heavier car especially with the Rocky Mountains less than an hour away, maybe an hour and 15 with the current motor. The first thought was to build a mild 1679 and keep the stock side draft as the engine bay in the early cars is quite a bit narrower than the late cars. Long story short, the build plan snowballed and is now a mild 1800. I will start with some pics first then go onto a parts list and pics of where I am currently at.


sounds familiar, I started with a balanced 1600cc and some stock dual PDSIT on the reworked singleport, over the single sidedraft 1500, that lasted a year before I was looking for more......

I would spend all the money on the T4 Wink
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:55 pm    Post subject: Re: 1800 Single port - early type 3 Reply with quote

Clatter wrote:
How did i miss this thread?


What motor are you building, again?
Confused


Really digging the Cyclone..
It looks LOUD! Razz

Remember that you have pretty limited space above the motor in a type 3..
You might lose needed space above the carb if you put anything additional below it.

Maybe find a set of 34 PDSITs from a 1700/1800 Bus or 411/412?

How about a side-draft Weber DCOE, or maybe two of them??


You can make a type4 rear hanger bar that picks up the rear bumper brackets if you don't want to weld on the body of the car..


I hope it was because you were putting down some miles in the fasty.

Currently I am collecting parts for the 1800 single port. Most everything should be here within a week. This will be my temporary fun engine until I have everything together for the type 4. I am going to fab my own heater boxes using Vintage Speed headers, once I get my English wheel back (loaned to a buddy so he could build a quarter for his car) and replace the transmission with some built to handle the power and torque of the type 4.

I replaced the rear mounts with some heavy duty units and cross brace. This raised the engine up somewhat. My plan is to install the new engine, and remove the brace and slot/machine the holes in the mount to adjust the height somewhat, 1/4 to 1/2 to fit the spacers. By running a set of custom stacks, I should gain a little space on top to help with air flow.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 8:01 pm    Post subject: Re: 1800 Single port - early type 3 Reply with quote

W1K1 wrote:
Quote:
The early type 3s (pre 64) came equipped with a side draft 1500 that was rated for 48hp. Hardly enough for a heavier car especially with the Rocky Mountains less than an hour away, maybe an hour and 15 with the current motor. The first thought was to build a mild 1679 and keep the stock side draft as the engine bay in the early cars is quite a bit narrower than the late cars. Long story short, the build plan snowballed and is now a mild 1800. I will start with some pics first then go onto a parts list and pics of where I am currently at.


sounds familiar, I started with a balanced 1600cc and some stock dual PDSIT on the reworked singleport, over the single sidedraft 1500, that lasted a year before I was looking for more......

I would spend all the money on the T4 Wink


Hahahaha. Its pretty much all there. 2l 3 stud heads, Manley valves, Logmech HD singles, ti retainers, 59cc chambers, machined by EMW. 78mm crank, conversion flywheel, KB pistons, machined stock jugs, H beams, some short IDF manifolds I made years ago, bearings, pushrod tubes, gasket kit the only thing I have left to buy for the motor is the cam.

And yeah, this thing snowballed. And really, I was only going to go with the 69.5 stroker and make a 1691, but Brian hooked it up with some prepped short rods, so 74mm it is.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:37 am    Post subject: Re: 1800 Single port - early type 3 Reply with quote

as far as cams go I have been running the web 163 with 105 lobe center with 1.1:1 rockers on the 1904cc with L3 heads and it pulled from idle to 5000rpm. Not sure how the singleport heads would effect things, but it's been a good cam in the heavy squareback with the 36 dells.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:15 pm    Post subject: Re: 1800 Single port - early type 3 Reply with quote

W1K1 wrote:
as far as cams go I have been running the web 163 with 105 lobe center with 1.1:1 rockers on the 1904cc with L3 heads and it pulled from idle to 5000rpm. Not sure how the singleport heads would effect things, but it's been a good cam in the heavy squareback with the 36 dells.


I think the 163 might be a bit much for the stock valves, single ports and the limited carburation I have, oh how I wish Kads would fit.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:07 pm    Post subject: Re: 1800 Single port - early type 3 Reply with quote

With Kads, my 1776 idles a bit rough with the Web 163.
Pretty sure any dual 1-barrels would do this.

It'll start off super puh-puck-a.. puh-puck-a.. puh-puck-a.. and will hardly idle.

Then it'll just start getting warm and alternate puckity-puckity and rump-rump-rump-rump.

Puckity-puckity.. rump-rump-rump-rump.. Puckety-puckity puckity-puckity.

Ah, Kadrons.. Single barrel carbs on a cammed motor..
Such a cantankerous sounding little beast.
People with no clue wonder what the hell is wrong,
And people in the know wonder what the hell you're doing..!

I remember full well now why i switched to Webers.
Long enough ago, it turns out, that i'd forgotten why..

Razz
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:25 pm    Post subject: Re: 1800 Single port - early type 3 Reply with quote

Build a side-draft DCOE manifold for it!

Used to see those all the time..
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