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Which one is the proper NSU type 32?
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Blue Baron
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 3:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? Reply with quote

Lennert.vw wrote:
And what about VW38/31, aka Hitlers personal VW which is probably the best preserved VW38 or any other prototype for that matter, it was supposedly being restored, but I haven't seen that car in a few years.

In this woke era of dieselgate, and VW changing its image to the German Tesla, it would be no surprise if this car never saw the light of day again.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? Reply with quote

Lennert.vw wrote:
I just re-read this thread and i agree that the one that still exists is the Reutter one and that the "mystery car" car was made by Drauz. Which makes the dirty car a bit of a mystery.

Here are the theories of which I believe that make sense.

#1 The car photographed outside Drauz was made by Drauz but the design was drawn by weinsberg, and the dirty car a was a 2nd car made by Drauz.

#2 This theory is almost the same as #1 but the dirty car was made by Reutter and neither Drauz of Weinsberg.

I don't think that Weinsberg made a car, they rather made the design.

The history of this era in the VW history is not well documented. In one of Keith Seume's books, writtin in 1997 he states that there where 3 prototypes, one made by Reutter and two by Drauz. 2 yeras later in another book he states two where made by Reutter and one by Drauz, howerer a few pager futher he states 2 where mady by Drauz and 1 by Reutter. It's almost like every single book states a diffrent theory. But I think that its it safe to assume that 2 where made by Drauz and one by Reutter.

And that makes theory #1 the most plausible. But if anyone has a better one, I would be gled to hear it.


Good summary. The Dirty car was made either by Reutter or Drauz. Unlike the other two, decent design sketches of the Dirty car exist in the Porsche archives and have been publicized many times. It is quite clear that neither the Existing (Reutter) car or the Mystery (Drauz) car were made to this drawing.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:59 am    Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? Reply with quote

allsidius wrote:

Good summary. The Dirty car was made either by Reutter or Drauz. Unlike the other two, decent design sketches of the Dirty car exist in the Porsche archives and have been publicized many times. It is quite clear that neither the Existing (Reutter) car or the Mystery (Drauz) car were made to this drawing.
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I'd love to see this car remade similar to the reconstruction of the W30.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:29 am    Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? Reply with quote

Quote:
I'd love to see this car remade similar to the reconstruction of the W30.


That would be totally awesome.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? Reply with quote

Blue Baron wrote:
Lennert.vw wrote:
And what about VW38/31, aka Hitlers personal VW which is probably the best preserved VW38 or any other prototype for that matter, it was supposedly being restored, but I haven't seen that car in a few years.

In this woke era of dieselgate, and VW changing its image to the German Tesla, it would be no surprise if this car never saw the light of day again.


considering that these cars are getting to be close to 100 years old, VW would do well to drag that one out. Would look good next to the other ones recently completed or under construction right now like W30/26. Should be pretty easy to make the case that this is automotive history, more so than "Adolf Hitler's car". Not like he had it a long time.....
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PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2021 3:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? Reply with quote

mandraks wrote:
Blue Baron wrote:
Lennert.vw wrote:
And what about VW38/31, aka Hitlers personal VW which is probably the best preserved VW38 or any other prototype for that matter, it was supposedly being restored, but I haven't seen that car in a few years.

In this woke era of dieselgate, and VW changing its image to the German Tesla, it would be no surprise if this car never saw the light of day again.


considering that these cars are getting to be close to 100 years old, VW would do well to drag that one out. Would look good next to the other ones recently completed or under construction right now like W30/26. Should be pretty easy to make the case that this is automotive history, more so than "Adolf Hitler's car". Not like he had it a long time.....


Great to see that this topic isn't dead yet. Anyway, I don't think that VW38/31 will be restored any time soon because they let no one get near that car. However, when VW30/26 was found, VW lended their wooden frame of their VW30 replica to the Grundmann family to help them bring a piece of history back alive. But that frame was useless because the proportions are off, the one by d'Ieteren (VW importer in Belguim) is done very good. VW and Porsche also gave the Grundmanns permission to look around in their archives if I am not mistaken, this all was mentioned by Traugott Grundmann in a video by Coolflo for those who are interested. This does show that they care about their Nazi era history. We can only hope that one day they restore it to its former glory. I know its Hitlers 50th birthday gift and one of his personal cars and people may have problems with that, but history is history and it can't be changed so we better preserve it, other cars which were driven by other Nazis that survived are preserved and in museums so why not VW38/31.
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PostPosted: Sat May 29, 2021 5:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? Reply with quote

Lennert.vw wrote:
mandraks wrote:
Blue Baron wrote:
Lennert.vw wrote:
And what about VW38/31, aka Hitlers personal VW which is probably the best preserved VW38 or any other prototype for that matter, it was supposedly being restored, but I haven't seen that car in a few years.

In this woke era of dieselgate, and VW changing its image to the German Tesla, it would be no surprise if this car never saw the light of day again.


considering that these cars are getting to be close to 100 years old, VW would do well to drag that one out. Would look good next to the other ones recently completed or under construction right now like W30/26. Should be pretty easy to make the case that this is automotive history, more so than "Adolf Hitler's car". Not like he had it a long time.....


Great to see that this topic isn't dead yet. Anyway, I don't think that VW38/31 will be restored any time soon because they let no one get near that car. However, when VW30/26 was found, VW lended their wooden frame of their VW30 replica to the Grundmann family to help them bring a piece of history back alive. But that frame was useless because the proportions are off, the one by d'Ieteren (VW importer in Belguim) is done very good. VW and Porsche also gave the Grundmanns permission to look around in their archives if I am not mistaken, this all was mentioned by Traugott Grundmann in a video by Coolflo for those who are interested. This does show that they care about their Nazi era history. We can only hope that one day they restore it to its former glory. I know its Hitlers 50th birthday gift and one of his personal cars and people may have problems with that, but history is history and it can't be changed so we better preserve it, other cars which were driven by other Nazis that survived are preserved and in museums so why not VW38/31.


Well put, good points raised and that video by coolflo is fantastic.

Despite the fact those who remember World War II is a much more exclusive club nowadays, the push by younger generations for political correctness sees that anything history or Nazi related is something that is to be complained about. The boycott movement driven by public opinion in todays society, would have a lot to say if Volkswagen spent money restoring or preserving something that has a fairly strong link to the fuhrer.

Personally I think it's best that the prototypes currently under restoration, be cared for by private hands with the support of Volkswagen AG and Porsche behind the scenes.

This ensures the best of both worlds. The restoration has access to anything the manufacturers can provide, while not being seen as a move to support, or resurrect a relic of the Nazi past of either company, or by using the funds of those companies to do so.


Volkswagen/ Porsche passions aside. I believe firmly in the preservation of history. Good or bad, we can learn many things from those who came before us.

I feel theses last few posts may be off topic for this thread though. Back to the NSU debate?
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:19 am    Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? Reply with quote

I agree with that these prototypes should be owned by a different company than Volkswagen, the Grundmanns or the prototyp museum in Hamburg are great options because there they take more care of the cars and don´t give them the wrong parts and so on.

Enough about that, back to the Typ32.
We probably will never know but I think that for now, with all the current info we have, we can safely say that the surviving one is made by Reutter and the other 2 by Drauz. There are some sources which mention a car being built by Weinsberg but those are hard to confirm because a lack a proper evidence.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:50 am    Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? Reply with quote

Lennert.vw wrote:

We probably will never know but I think that for now, with all the current info we have, we can safely say that the surviving one is made by Reutter and the other 2 by Drauz. There are some sources which mention a car being built by Weinsberg but those are hard to confirm because a lack a proper evidence.


I agree on all that, with the exception that the "mystery car" photographed outside Drauz works, looks quite similar / inspired by the Weinsberg sketches. I find it not implausible that it was built by Drauz to these drawings, or by Weinsberg themselves. The distance between Weinsberg and Drauz was quite short, and it would not have been out of place to drive the car to Drauz and take a couple of photos. But that is pure speculation of course. I do not recall any evidence that the mystery car was built at Drauz, except that it was photographed there.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2021 12:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? Reply with quote

If we want to sort out this mystery we must use the hard evidence we have, and we don't have that much. All of these cars and the events around them happened almost 100 years ago and as far as I know there is not a single book that goes into the details of the "pre-nazi" era of the beetle. So I'll try to defend my theory or "case" to put it this way. Personally I think that Weinsberg did not build a car.

From 'first hand evidence':

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Here is the car parked outside Drauz works which indicates that the car is built by them and not Weinsberg. For example why would Audi photograph their prototype outside a BMW factory? If the car would be built by Weinsberg and designed by them (which we will get to in a minute) then I don't see any logical reason for them to go to Drauz works to photograph their car. As allsidius mentioned, the two companies where close together but why won't you photograph a car that you have been working on for months outside your own workshop. Instead they drive it to their competators to photograph it? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Here is the sketch made by Weinsberg which depicts a car that looks awfully close to the one above. They have differences in the fenders, windows and bumpers but the overall shape it the same. The placement and shape of the headlights are the same and the rear is also the same. This design could poosibly be a submission, the result of a contract by NSU or Porsche to design a car for them or as allsidius mentioned an early proposal. However these are speculations. Of the two books that I have (wich both are written by Keith Sueme) there is no mention of a car built by Weinsberg. They both say that two where built by Drauz and one by Reutter.
So I would argue that this drawing by Weinsberg is just a design or inspiration for the car above.

Secondairy evidence:

As I have mentioned my two sources; The Beetle. a Comprehensive Illustrated History of the World's Most Popular Car by Keith Seume and The Millennium Bug also by Keith Seume, both mention that two cars by built by Drauz and one by Reutter., no mention of Weinsberg.

The only source which mentions the existance of a Weinsberg car is in Bernd Wiersch book: "Die Käfer-Chronik". He mentions that the remaining one in the zeithaus is made by Drauz which is incorrect. Therefore this source is unrelaible.

Last but not least. Another samba member named IIIA-0426 mentioned that he has a letter between Fritz Von Falkenhayn (the one who comissioned the Typ 32) and Karl Rabe (most of us know who he is alreday). the letter is dated january 12 1957 and is written on the occasion of the anniversairy of the Reutter company. IIIA-0426 said earlier in this thread that there was no mention of Weinsberg in that letter. I don't have a copy of that letter, however it would be much apprecaited if someone who has one to post it here because it would be of great interest to all of us. Since I don't have a copy of set letter I have to take IIIA-0426's word for it, I see no reason for him to lie about this since he mentioned that he's been studying the typ 32 for 15+ years.

So this was my "case" for those who read throug it all, thank you and I hope you can add evidence to my theory or dismantle it.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 2:52 am    Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? Reply with quote

When the cars were done, they were NSU property. The distance between Heilbronn and Neckarsulm is just a few miles. These cars were driven around, and there is no indication on who paid for the photography of the mystery car. (Obviously a professional) NSU could have done it at any location, including outside of the premises of a competing body maker.

All of this is speculation of course.

You mention books on the beetle genesis, many of these are riddled with mistakes from a time when accuracy was not that important. The Birth of the Beetle is the most authorative book on the subject, but the NSU cars are hardly discussed.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:15 am    Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? Reply with quote

looks like this car wasn't driven but towed to photo location
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:39 am    Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? Reply with quote

finster wrote:
looks like this car wasn't driven but towed to photo location
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I'd say that adds circumstantial evidence that the car was built by Drauz. Let's say it was a working prototype and broke down, and had to be towed back to base.

Not definite but it would seem odd to tow it to another builders address just for a photo opportunity.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:24 am    Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? Reply with quote

To me both photographs of the "mystery car" seem to be taken by professional photographers so I doubt that if the car was made by Weinsberg they wouldn't take a professional photo right in front of their competitors workshop of their broken down car.

We don't know if the car even broke down, maybe the car was just being towed because it didn't have its engine yet.

The distance between the two companies was indeed very short, but if the car which you have been working broke down then why would they drive the car to your competitors workshop to take a professional picture there, why not drive the short distance to your own shop. Back then there weren't as much cars on the road as nowadays so I image towing a car was a bit easier (depending on the towing cars capacity and the weight of the towed car, ofcourse).

I am not convinced that Weinsberg built a car but I am 100% convinced that they had something to do with the NSU Typ 32. The sketch with Weinsberg on it and the mystery car look suspiciously alike. They have some differences but the similarities are striking. Also in the left corner there is NSU written, jts quite tiny however.

We probably should try to take the things written in VW books with a grain of salt because back then accuracy wasn't as important indeed. That's why I placed my arguments with evidence from books under "secondary evidence".


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Back to this picture, if we can confirm that this photo was taken outside Drauz karosseriewerke then this (to me atleast) seals the theory that this car was built by them. I don't recall anyone saying that this photograph was taken outside Drauz or Weinsberg, correct me if am wrong.

I will probably try to get in contact with both companies because any help is welcome (and also because this whole thread has become a bit of an obsession to me).

Anyways, I can't wait to see other people's theories and criticism because this thread is to interesting to die yet.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? Reply with quote

Well, when a big nameplate on a factory shack says "Drautz" let´s simply assume that this is the company Drautz.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? Reply with quote

I know nothing about those cars, and try to learn but could it be that in this pict, the rope is still on the front bumper visible? And the other pict with tow car in front shows no number plate, so test driving was not a fact.. Or it was towed from one place to another... maybe to put an engine in it? Tires look spotless brand new also. No dirt visible on the car so I assume it was fresh finished ( with or without engine)

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


On the left of the pict, you see a wooden wall with a row of nails or bolts to hold the wood. Straight behind the car , 2 double garage doors...
When you look at the other pict... that wooden wall is exact the same.. So for me both picts are made on the the same spot. Correct me if I am wrong or if it was written before. Did not re-read it all..
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? Reply with quote

peter schepens wrote:
I know nothing about those cars, and try to learn but could it be that in this pict, the rope is still on the front bumper visible? And the other pict with tow car in front shows no number plate, so test driving was not a fact.. Or it was towed from one place to another... maybe to put an engine in it? Tires look spotless brand new also. No dirt visible on the car so I assume it was fresh finished ( with or without engine)

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


On the left of the pict, you see a wooden wall with a row of nails or bolts to hold the wood. Straight behind the car , 2 double garage doors...
When you look at the other pict... that wooden wall is exact the same.. So for me both picts are made on the the same spot. Correct me if I am wrong or if it was written before. Did not re-read it all..


I agree with you. It is the same spot and it does look like the rope is attached to the car. The car looks brand new and must have been towed to a different location likely because it didn't have its engine yet, kinda like the Zündapp Typ 12 prototypes which had their chassises complete with engine and transmission send to Porsche to be assembled further there.

If the car was built by Weinsberg and it just so happened to break down near the Drauz workshop and had to towed back to base, then the car would have been dirty (which obviously is not the case) and they would not take pictures there.

To me this is plenty of evidence that Weinsberg did not built this car, any NSU Typ 32 for that matter. However they did make that sketch which resembles the car we see here with NSU written on it. Why? Who knows.

I did get into contact with the parent company of Weinsberg Karosseriewerke, I told them that I am a student who is researching the early VW history. They thanked me for my question and said that they would do "some further research". Maybe they will or probably they don't want to be bothered about a car they might have built almost 100 years ago but we shall see.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:31 am    Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? Reply with quote

There is another fact to take into consideration here. in 1933 there were TWO NSUs: One, was the original "NSU Vereinigte Fahrzeugwerke AG" company based in Neckarsulm; the other, "NSU-Automobil AG" was a FIAT-owned spin-off of the former that took on Heilbronn car plant and (more or less as it will emerge after the war) licensed the "NSU" name for "NSU-FIAT" cars.

Now, the NSU dealing with Porsche in 1933 for the Typ-32 was the former (let's call it NSU-Neckarsulm), while the latter (NSU-Heilbronn) was, during that same timeframe, buying bodies both from Drauz and Weinsberg (both already were supliers of NSU-Neckarsulm for the short time in which it made its own cars in Heilbronn) and preparing the launch of the NSU-FIAT 1000 (a version of the FIAT 508) for the next year.

Now, all of the above is fact, what follows is speculation:

it is my understanding that the NSU-FIAT 1000 was to be produced with CKDs from Italy, so we could assume that Drauz, who made "standard" NSU car bodies was being relieved of work; at the same time, Weinsberg was commissioned big orders of "special" bodies from FIAT (another fact is that it ended up being bought out by the italian firm some years later).
So, we can speculate that Weinsberg indeed did produce that design for NSU-Neckarsulm, but lacked production capacity to actually manufacture it due to its commitments with NSU-Heilbronn, so NSU-Neckarsulm had it manufactured by Drauz instead.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:06 am    Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? Reply with quote

GArBa wrote:
There is another fact to take into consideration here. in 1933 there were TWO NSUs: One, was the original "NSU Vereinigte Fahrzeugwerke AG" company based in Neckarsulm; the other, "NSU-Automobil AG" was a FIAT-owned spin-off of the former that took on Heilbronn car plant and (more or less as it will emerge after the war) licensed the "NSU" name for "NSU-FIAT" cars.

Now, the NSU dealing with Porsche in 1933 for the Typ-32 was the former (let's call it NSU-Neckarsulm), while the latter (NSU-Heilbronn) was, during that same timeframe, buying bodies both from Drauz and Weinsberg (both already were supliers of NSU-Neckarsulm for the short time in which it made its own cars in Heilbronn) and preparing the launch of the NSU-FIAT 1000 (a version of the FIAT 508) for the next year.

Now, all of the above is fact, what follows is speculation:

it is my understanding that the NSU-FIAT 1000 was to be produced with CKDs from Italy, so we could assume that Drauz, who made "standard" NSU car bodies was being relieved of work; at the same time, Weinsberg was commissioned big orders of "special" bodies from FIAT (another fact is that it ended up being bought out by the italian firm some years later).
So, we can speculate that Weinsberg indeed did produce that design for NSU-Neckarsulm, but lacked production capacity to actually manufacture it due to its commitments with NSU-Heilbronn, so NSU-Neckarsulm had it manufactured by Drauz instead.


That is some great information, now it makes more sense why Weinsberg made that sketch. I found some additional information which seems to make sense (I will link the source below), according to this article Gustav Drauz made the first prototype in 1934 near Heilbronn in cooperation with Weinsberg. Weinsberg designed it and Drauz built it, they both had worked with NSU in the past so this makes sense.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.4legend.com/2019/...r-nsu/amp/ this source does mix up the Reutter surviving car up with a Drauz, they also completely show 2 different cars when talking about 1 car. But the information about the whole Drauz en Weinsberg situation makes sense.
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mandraks
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? Reply with quote

Lennert.vw wrote:
...
We don't know if the car even broke down, maybe the car was just being towed because it didn't have its engine yet.

The distance between the two companies was indeed very short, but if the car which you have been working broke down then why would they drive the car to your competitors workshop to take a professional picture there, why not drive the short distance to your own shop. Back then there weren't as much cars on the road as nowadays so I image towing a car was a bit easier (depending on the towing cars capacity and the weight of the towed car, of course).
...


i used to live in the general area, and we used to tow, albeit illegally, 50 or even 100 kilometers in a heartbeat.

I know my dad, who is 80 now, has towed cars as far as 100 miles when he was young. with a rope.

I have no doubt that nobody would have blinked at the thought of towing a car any reasonable distance back then. Not having an engine in a prototype would be a pretty good reason in my book

Neckarsulm to Heilbronn is like a 10 minute drive, 5 miles or so.
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