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Ohio Tom Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2006 Posts: 1660 Location: Marshallville Ohio
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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:12 am Post subject: Re: Distributor #3 lobe retard discussion |
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ONe thing I will never understand: I see many models have 30-32deg advance in them.
What motor on this planet needs 30-32 deg advance in it?
I mean if max is 32deg, then idle is "0".
Never seen a motor run well timed at 0. They sound like a tractor. Lazy down low.
I have much better luck with idle and responsiveness with idle around 10-20deg. |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12730 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:25 am Post subject: Re: Distributor #3 lobe retard discussion |
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Ohio Tom wrote: |
ONe thing I will never understand: I see many models have 30-32deg advance in them.
What motor on this planet needs 30-32 deg advance in it?
I mean if max is 32deg, then idle is "0".
Never seen a motor run well timed at 0. They sound like a tractor. Lazy down low.
I have much better luck with idle and responsiveness with idle around 10-20deg. |
The stock ones do Tom. You are not building low compression engines that will run on the cheapest possible fuel AND meet bogus emissions targets. That's a HUGE challenge!
Just sayin'... _________________ We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76937 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:01 am Post subject: Re: Distributor #3 lobe retard discussion |
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Just so everyone knows the Sun distributor machines are 60+ year old analog machines. The degree wheel has markings in degrees and they are 2mm apart. Since the distributor spins at 1/2 crank speed so a 3* variance is only 1.5 marks or 3mm. So the distributor needs to be stable enough to see a 3mm difference and that's on a 12" wheel when the other marks are 90* apart.
The use of an oscilloscope would be way more accurate. _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
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Frederik Samba Member
Joined: August 18, 2007 Posts: 578 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:06 am Post subject: Re: Distributor #3 lobe retard discussion |
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The No3 cyl. cam lobe was retarded 2 deg at distributor, 4deg at crankshaft. 3 or 4 deg might not matter in this test (test-resolution/error, manufacturing difference, wear etc) but just to get it correct. |
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tasb The Distributor Distributor
Joined: April 27, 2002 Posts: 6371 Location: Pentwater, Michigan
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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:40 am Post subject: Re: Distributor #3 lobe retard discussion |
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Exactly, I tried to make that point at the bottom of my data table but Glenn has done better at illustrating the point.
I've never really had an issue with a static timing point of 0 degrees. I find cold starting issues start to crop up once you get to a static timing point at 15 degrees and above advanced. _________________ Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018
1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc
1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse
Last edited by tasb on Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:29 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Zed999 Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2018 Posts: 1248 Location: UK
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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:15 pm Post subject: Re: Distributor #3 lobe retard discussion |
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Was there a time later on when this asymmetric cam was discontinued or would I find the same on a mid seventies type-4 distributor? |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76937 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:00 pm Post subject: Re: Distributor #3 lobe retard discussion |
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Zed999 wrote: |
Was there a time later on when this asymmetric cam was discontinued or would I find the same on a mid seventies type-4 distributor? |
As far as I know, Type 4 distributors did not have it. _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
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heimlich VWNOS.com
Joined: November 20, 2016 Posts: 6615 Location: Houston, Texas
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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:14 pm Post subject: Re: Distributor #3 lobe retard discussion |
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Would you add a disclaimer? You can't guarantee this will show up in all the distributors listed. I've not seen it in a few you have listed as it showing up. I've seen it in others that aren't.
I can make a distributor show 3 degrees off by bending the base plate, wearing the bushing, grinding the lobes, etc etc.
The Sun manual states that 2 degrees of variance is acceptable in certain places as well. _________________ www.vwnos.com [email protected]
Classic Brands. Classic Quality.
Not all parts are made the same. NOS OE/OEM parts made mainly in West Germany, Early Germany, and Early Brazil are where VW produced the best quality parts and best fitting products.
5% Off your order with coupon code: 5%OFF
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Pruneman99 Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2012 Posts: 5013 Location: Oceanside
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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:53 pm Post subject: Re: Distributor #3 lobe retard discussion |
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If he was seeing 3* retard at #3 lobe only, I don't think it would be from worn parts. Wouldn't you see scatter, and not just retard, at all lobes? |
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kpf Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2017 Posts: 852 Location: California, US
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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:56 pm Post subject: Re: Distributor #3 lobe retard discussion |
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With these distributors with the asymmetric timing, can you feel the #3 cylinder making less power than the others, or is it simply way too subtle to detect with the seat of your pants? _________________ 1971 Super Beetle |
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heimlich VWNOS.com
Joined: November 20, 2016 Posts: 6615 Location: Houston, Texas
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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:39 pm Post subject: Re: Distributor #3 lobe retard discussion |
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Pruneman99 wrote: |
If he was seeing 3* retard at #3 lobe only, I don't think it would be from worn parts. Wouldn't you see scatter, and not just retard, at all lobes? |
What Tasb is doing is quite valuable but should be taken with a grain of salt.
There is so much that could happen. I was just illustrating a few easy possibilities where the results could be off on happenstance.
There are some distributors where most of the time always see the correction on lobe 3. Then there are others where you see it sometimes.
The Sun machine is not perfect which adds to the variance. Running on a precision lathe/mill and using a digital oscilloscope you'd get better results. _________________ www.vwnos.com [email protected]
Classic Brands. Classic Quality.
Not all parts are made the same. NOS OE/OEM parts made mainly in West Germany, Early Germany, and Early Brazil are where VW produced the best quality parts and best fitting products.
5% Off your order with coupon code: 5%OFF
Restored Distributors Available (<--Click here) |
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chrisflstf Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2004 Posts: 3444 Location: San Diego
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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:34 pm Post subject: Re: Distributor #3 lobe retard discussion |
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The shaft could actually be measured as it would have been designed in the machining specs when they were built. |
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tasb The Distributor Distributor
Joined: April 27, 2002 Posts: 6371 Location: Pentwater, Michigan
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:06 am Post subject: Re: Distributor #3 lobe retard discussion |
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Zed999 wrote: |
Was there a time later on when this asymmetric cam was discontinued or would I find the same on a mid seventies type-4 distributor? |
This is what I'm currently pondering/working on. I have tested two 113 905 205 AN and both are showing two lobes retarded. I'm getting the same result measuring the GL distributors. That's after the true dog house cooler had come into play (with the 113 AN) which makes me question my results. It's been over 100 degrees here which is slowing progress.
As to heimlich's points, I think/hope that I have done a sufficient job warning that the results are open to some error/interpretation. _________________ Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018
1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc
1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse
Last edited by tasb on Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:31 am; edited 2 times in total |
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tasb The Distributor Distributor
Joined: April 27, 2002 Posts: 6371 Location: Pentwater, Michigan
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:13 am Post subject: Re: Distributor #3 lobe retard discussion |
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heimlich wrote: |
Would you add a disclaimer? You can't guarantee this will show up in all the distributors listed. I've not seen it in a few you have listed as it showing up. I've seen it in others that aren't.
I can make a distributor show 3 degrees off by bending the base plate, wearing the bushing, grinding the lobes, etc etc.
The Sun manual states that 2 degrees of variance is acceptable in certain places as well. |
As above, I believe I've satisfied this need.
I've not encountered the situation where some 111 905 205 N distributors ( for example)have asymmetric lobes while some do not. Can you be more specific where you have had this occur?
Are you saying you are artificially grinding cam lobes or bushings? or just being hypothetical? As above these actions would effect all four lobes not just one. _________________ Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018
1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc
1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse |
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tasb The Distributor Distributor
Joined: April 27, 2002 Posts: 6371 Location: Pentwater, Michigan
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:25 am Post subject: Re: Distributor #3 lobe retard discussion |
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kpf wrote: |
With these distributors with the asymmetric timing, can you feel the #3 cylinder making less power than the others, or is it simply way too subtle to detect with the seat of your pants? |
No, I don't think it's possible to feel this difference at the seat of the pants, too many rotations per second for that. _________________ Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018
1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc
1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse |
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tasb The Distributor Distributor
Joined: April 27, 2002 Posts: 6371 Location: Pentwater, Michigan
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:27 am Post subject: Re: Distributor #3 lobe retard discussion |
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Glenn wrote: |
Zed999 wrote: |
Was there a time later on when this asymmetric cam was discontinued or would I find the same on a mid seventies type-4 distributor? |
As far as I know, Type 4 distributors did not have it. |
I will ad a type IV distributor to the testing. _________________ Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018
1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc
1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse |
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Lingwendil Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2009 Posts: 3988 Location: Antioch, California, a block from the hood
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76937 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:03 am Post subject: Re: Distributor #3 lobe retard discussion |
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Lingwendil wrote: |
By any chance are you able to test the vju4br8/040 cast iron SVDA? |
It has the same curve and lobes as the 019 so the results will be the same. _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21519 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:20 am Post subject: Re: Distributor #3 lobe retard discussion |
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tasb wrote: |
Glenn wrote: |
Zed999 wrote: |
Was there a time later on when this asymmetric cam was discontinued or would I find the same on a mid seventies type-4 distributor? |
As far as I know, Type 4 distributors did not have it. |
I will ad a type IV distributor to the testing. |
I don't "think"type 4s had this retard as Glenn already stated.....but this is a GREAT thread and I would love to know for sure.....because.......its a KNOWN defect in type 4 engines that #3 runs hotter because of a combination of the dead end cooling air static pressure issue and the cooling/fan manifold distribution issues with the oil cooler take off.
So....."which" type 4 distributor? There are MANY just like type 1. The D-jet units are quite a bit different in overall housing. If you need one to test from a 411/412/914 I could get one to you.
Ray |
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Vanapplebomb Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010 Posts: 5412 Location: Holland, MI
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:29 am Post subject: Re: Distributor #3 lobe retard discussion |
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Ray,
For that reason I have been looking into some of the other VW distributors. The VJU 4 BR8 Cast iron body has my eye right now because of its 16 degrees of advance. If only it had the retarded #3... that would probably be about as good as a standard points type distributor would get for a mild 2200 (66x103) Type4. That way I can be all in at 28 deg btdc, yet still have 12 deg btdc at idle, which they seem to like.
This is a cool thread. Keep it up guys.
Glen, can the cam/rotor shaft be replaced on an 019 or VJU 4 BR8 to one that has a retarded #3? _________________ 1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021 |
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