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Spring spacer under CV flange which direction? 002 bus trans
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tristanblue
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:17 pm    Post subject: Spring spacer under CV flange which direction? 002 bus trans Reply with quote

I am in process of reassembling the CV flanges after replacing the flange seals on my 002 bus trans.

What is proper orientation of the springs that go in before installing the flange? One side is rounded and other flat. Can not find this info in bentley or online.

Thanks

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Last edited by tristanblue on Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:35 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Spring under CV flange which direction? 002 bus trans Reply with quote

The picture you posted is a circlip, which are generally installed "sharp" side towards the joint.

VW deleted the spring "concave" washers in the mid seventies; I am an obedient sheep so I do as they say.

Robbie
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Spring under CV flange which direction? 002 bus trans Reply with quote

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Spring under CV flange which direction? 002 bus trans Reply with quote

airschooled wrote:
The picture you posted is a circlip, which are generally installed "sharp" side towards the joint.

VW deleted the spring "concave" washers in the mid seventies; I am an obedient sheep so I do as they say.

Robbie


Robbie, that is the spring spacer between the CV flange and the differential. I took the pic from PC web site. If you look closely it is NOT the washer under circlip. Look here.
https://www.pacificcustoms.com/517281002u.html

Wildthings that thread you posted is about a concave washer occasionally founs under the outer cir-clip not the spring spacer inside that I am speaking of.

Here is the early bay parts manual it is #15 on the diagram.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Spring spacer under CV flange which direction? 002 bus trans Reply with quote

The Bentley manual for Type 1 vehicles, some of which have tranaxles with the same construction as the 002's, specify that the spacers
(AKA thrust rings) are to be installed with the flat side towards the joint flange.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:53 am    Post subject: Re: Spring under CV flange which direction? 002 bus trans Reply with quote

tristanblue wrote:
airschooled wrote:
The picture you posted is a circlip, which are generally installed "sharp" side towards the joint.

VW deleted the spring "concave" washers in the mid seventies; I am an obedient sheep so I do as they say.

Robbie


Robbie, that is the spring spacer between the CV flange and the differential. I took the pic from PC web site. If you look closely it is NOT the washer under circlip. Look here.
https://www.pacificcustoms.com/517281002u.html

Wildthings that thread you posted is about a concave washer occasionally founs under the outer cir-clip not the spring spacer inside that I am speaking of.

Here is the early bay parts manual it is #15 on the diagram.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


That is...not a "spring" spacer...but it IS a very critical spacer.

I "think"...please correct me if I am wrong...that they are also used on 091 transmission's and for sure they are used on the 004 type 4 manual transmission.

They are simply a hardened, polished ring....used as a spacer between teh inner face of the CV hub...and the outer face of the differential housing.

They are very important....because the purpose is to keep the differential stub shaft loaded outward against...or actually toward.... its thrust washer inside of the differential housing.

Loaded...is really the wrong word. Its not a spring ring. It just limits the in and out travel of teh CV hub and the stub axle to a few thousandths.

If you forget this part...and many have...I even did on a 004 many year ago....it allows the stub shaft to ride in and out. That wears on several parts.

It allows the stub axle face to come up hard against the tubular spacer inside of the spider gear...wearing the tubular spacer prematurely over time.

This also allows slight change to the mesh depth of the output shaft gears and spider gears...also causing premature wear.

This spacer ring is not a spring ring in my experience. Its just a spacer and it should not be tight...meaning you should not have to compress against it to install the CV hub.

It should have a very narrow gap between the CV hub and the face of the diff housing....and I would have to look because I cannot remember what that gap is...but its .003" or less if I had to estimate.

In my experience it should not matter which way it goes in....but I try not to mix them from side to side on the transmission.

The part # for the one in my transmission is 113 517 281

Weddle shows this part as type 1
https://weddleindustries.com/products/113-517-281-U/113-517-281-U

I also found it in the type 3 transmission exploded view.

Ray
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:12 am    Post subject: Re: Spring spacer under CV flange which direction? 002 bus trans Reply with quote

Tristanblue, thanks for the correction! I love how the link even says “this is not a snap ring.” Razz

I have not needed to compressed the parts in question on any 091 output flange installations.

Robbie
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:32 am    Post subject: Re: Spring spacer under CV flange which direction? 002 bus trans Reply with quote

It is a spring. It's curved, and becomes flattened/compressed on installation, and performs the
same function as the dished washer under the circlip on the outboard end of the diff. stub axle, which the 091 trans has but the 002 does not.
VW service literature sez they should be replaced if there's any axial play. The Bentley assumes it needs to be
compressed to install/remove the circlip.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:12 am    Post subject: Re: Spring spacer under CV flange which direction? 002 bus trans Reply with quote

It is installed with the 'higher' sides of the split portion in the 'up' position.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Spring spacer under CV flange which direction? 002 bus trans Reply with quote

raygreenwood That sure was a lot of hot air and to not even know the correct answer to the question posted at hand. About halfway through reading that I thought to myself, "all of this and I bet he doesn't even know the answer !" LOL!! BTW this spacer is concave (convex depending on which way you look at it) That is why most people call it a "spring" spacer (it resembles a spring washer). A barndoor bus does not actually have a barndoor on it but that is what folks call it. Besides what difference does it make if you (think) you know the correct terminology but not for sure about the correct installation position. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Spring spacer under CV flange which direction? 002 bus trans Reply with quote

tristanblue wrote:
... this spacer is concave (convex depending on which way you look at it) ...


I wouldn't call it either "concave" or "convex". I would just call it "bent" in a rather peculiar way. Kinda like the
Type 1 engine cooling fan hub lock washer, but not symmetrical.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Spring spacer under CV flange which direction? 002 bus trans Reply with quote

tristanblue wrote:
raygreenwood That sure was a lot of hot air and to not even know the correct answer to the question posted at hand. About halfway through reading that I thought to myself, "all of this and I bet he doesn't even know the answer !" LOL!! BTW this spacer is concave (convex depending on which way you look at it) That is why most people call it a "spring" spacer (it resembles a spring washer). A barndoor bus does not actually have a barndoor on it but that is what folks call it. Besides what difference does it make if you (think) you know the correct terminology but not for sure about the correct installation position. Very Happy



First….sorry if you got the idea that I was beating on you by correcting your terminology. It must be a rough life if you get bent every time someone corrects something you say…or says something counter to what you say…whether they are right r wrong.
Not even being pointy with that comment….just an observation that you seem to be a bit quick on the trigger.

Let me ‘splain why I say that:

So….is it a spring or a spacer?

You tell me?....or better yet…lets let the books tell ALL of us.

Unless we are speaking of a totally different part and part #....which is WHY I bothered to post the part # in all of that “hot air”…..here is what the books say…and this part # and part are used across types 1, 2, 3 and 4 (not to mention a Few Audi’s):

Bentley type 3

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


So, this is the transmission section of the Brown Bentley for type 3 where they are removing the hub and the part we are speaking of. Note it is called a SPACER

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This is the assembly section of the same text…again…note that they call it a SPACER.
Also note…and this is something else I learned today….the Bentley states…. that you MAY…MAY… need to compress the SPACER WASHER enough to put on the CV hub circlip.

I have never found the need to do so….but since this is the section on refurbishment…sure…with all new parts and shims in the differential…. you might need to.
By the way, that special tool only works on the early model type 3 which has through bolts….so I don’t know what you might use on the 002 or others. Never needed anything.

Haynes type 4/004

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Again…note….part #9….SPACER

Haynes Bay Bus:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Again….note….SPACER WASHER

So….I call it what the books have always called …and what it is….they all say either SPACER….SPACER WASHER …..or SPACER RING.

Sorry if you felt like I was correcting you erroneously.

If you have ANY book/manual that states this is a spring , spring washer or spring spacer…please post it and I will stand corrected (somewhat). Wink

The ONLY thing I got wrong in this thread….is that there IS a direction to this part. That one thing I did learn today….is the direction it goes according to the book.

Scott at German supply noted it in kind of a cryptic way I did not quite understand until I went to my storage unit and got one to look at…..and then I found it in the type 3 Bentley text. The flatter side…and its visually subtle…. goes against the hub.

My type 4 books and Haynes books…..for any of the vehicles I have Haynes for ….Types 1 through 4….using that part #.....they make no mention of direction….and probably…because its JUST a spacer….it makes little difference. I have run transmissions with this part flipped either way for a million plus miles with no issues.

However….spring?

I’m still not FULLY buying it. These DO have some “un-flatness”….so I guess you could say it has SOME spring....in this respect I think Kreemowheat described best in his last post...neither here nor there.

….but they are nothing like the concave Bellville SPRING washer that goes under the circlip to hold the CV joint to the shaft.

You are not squeezing much of a spring when you install the hub…..IN MY EXPERIENCE….you are pulling the stub shaft against the shim inside the diff housing, squeezing out excess oil and taking up slack…..to get the snap ring back on.
It sometimes happens that you may need to compress it (so the book says)…but I have never had to.

Also….in the “without Guesswork……the axial play on this stack up is 0.0055” to .008” (wear limit) with about 0.002” new….which is what I was pointing out. I had to look it up as I noted.

Just a piece of advice…..cool your hair trigger a bit. No one was beating on you. And….what you consider “wasted hot air”…others may find useful. It didn’t cost you jack shit…either way.

Ray
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Spring spacer under CV flange which direction? 002 bus trans Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:


The ONLY thing I got wrong in this thread….is that there IS a direction to this part. That one thing I did learn today….is the direction it goes according to the book.

It sometimes happens that you may need to compress it (so the book says)…but I have never had to.

Just a piece of advice…..cool your hair trigger a bit. No one was beating on you. And….what you consider “wasted hot air”…others may find useful. It didn’t cost you jack shit…either way.

Ray



Hmmm funny I am the one with the hair trigger? if that ain't the pot calling the kettle black LOL! So how long was the rhetorical of yours this time?

The only thing you got wrong in your 3000 word replies is the single question I asked. So I stand by my statement HOT AIR.

As far as the spring spacer, it is spring steel and it is curved to compress. The Bentley states that and you even have to use a tool to compress it. Sure sounds like a spring/spacer to me...but then you even said that yourself. But DON'T say it's spring that would be WRONG! and would make the baby jesus cry, so just don't do it please, for ray and the baby jesus.

Some advice to you too ray, take your OWN advice and cool YOUR trigger and try to stick to answering only the question at hand (if you actually know it next time).


Last edited by tristanblue on Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Spring spacer under CV flange which direction? 002 bus trans Reply with quote

And many THANKS to kreemoweet and Germansupplyscott for the short and concise answer to the original question. CHEERS!
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Spring spacer under CV flange which direction? 002 bus trans Reply with quote

tristanblue wrote:
And many THANKS to kreemoweet and Germansupplyscott for the short and concise answer to the original question. CHEERS!


tristanblue I appreciate the shout out but I can't let this pass without comment.

raygreenwood is a valued member of our community. To be fair, sometimes his posts ARE long. This is good! Ray posts in numerous of the many forums here on thesamba.com and often writes incredibly detailed and feature-rich topics and threads that provide invaluable information to all who spend time reading them. There is information in Ray's topics that is not likely to be found anywhere else – and we are lucky to have someone posting here with his technical background and the time and patience to share it.

In addition to the utility of Ray's (or anyone else's) contributions, we are a community and we should treat each other with dignity and respect, not snipe or clap back at people.

TLDR: Be nice Smile
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Spring spacer under CV flange which direction? 002 bus trans Reply with quote

germansupplyscott wrote:
tristanblue wrote:
And many THANKS to kreemoweet and Germansupplyscott for the short and concise answer to the original question. CHEERS!


tristanblue I appreciate the shout out but I can't let this pass without comment.

raygreenwood is a valued member of our community. To be fair, sometimes his posts ARE long. This is good! Ray posts in numerous of the many forums here on thesamba.com and often writes incredibly detailed and feature-rich topics and threads that provide invaluable information to all who spend time reading them. There is information in Ray's topics that is not likely to be found anywhere else – and we are lucky to have someone posting here with his technical background and the time and patience to share it.

In addition to the utility of Ray's (or anyone else's) contributions, we are a community and we should treat each other with dignity and respect, not snipe or clap back at people.

TLDR: Be nice Smile


Exactly. Ironic this comes not long after the thread praising the helpfulness of this forum, how it is the good people that regularly contribute that make it great, and the quality of information. In the spirit of being nice, I’ll leave it at that.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Spring spacer under CV flange which direction? 002 bus trans Reply with quote

It is properly installed flat side toward the drive flange concave side toward the differential.

Just that simple. Very Happy

P.S. I regret answering your question in the first place. As previously stated Ray is a valued member of this community. So if you can't come proper and be respectful. Then don't come. Idea


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Spring spacer under CV flange which direction? 002 bus trans Reply with quote

Exactly, exactly! I sometimes think the Ray Greenwood Institute of Technology should have it's own page here.
I read his every post I come across and always learn something new! Cool
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Spring spacer under CV flange which direction? 002 bus trans Reply with quote

Type 1 and early 002 transaxles also have threaded output shafts. (Not sure about late 002/091). I have had to compress the part in question on T1 transaxles, using the exact oil pump tool shown in Ray's diagram.

Colin @ Itinerant Air Cooled shows the correct orientation here:

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Spring spacer under CV flange which direction? 002 bus trans Reply with quote

sodbuster wrote:
It is properly installed flat side toward the drive flange concave side toward the differential.

Just that simple. Very Happy

P.S. I regret answering your question in the first place. As previously stated Ray is a valued member of this community. So if you can't come proper and be respectful. Then don't come. Idea


Get it right HE came to my thread not me to his. And he jumped on my ass first his with his spring not spring bullshit. As far as I am concerned I would be happy as pie if he ignored every single post I make "as I do his in other threads". If he does that, problem solved.

And as far as being respectful, that is a two way street baby.
Just that simple Very Happy

Wouldn't it be great if there was a BLOCK feature on the Samba. Sure would avoid all this crap. I would use the shit outta that thing. (and I am sure ya' all would too!)


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