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BUCIOBATISTI Samba Member
Joined: April 17, 2002 Posts: 6956 Location: San Diego, California, USA
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:16 am Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback |
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OK, seems like this one is the turd it smells like.
Anyone want to place bets that we all collectively unravel this American fraudster Bus? _________________ Please check us out on Instagram at @holygrailgarage
That's the best place to see the latest things we are up to as well as catch an occasional sneak peek of our latest car and parts listings! |
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Tizian Samba Member
Joined: February 18, 2015 Posts: 383 Location: Hamburg, Germany
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:11 am Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback |
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We call that:
Urkundenfälschung - forgery of documents
We should hint this to the Volkswagen Museum... |
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AS350driver Samba Member
Joined: April 17, 2016 Posts: 1340 Location: Tucson
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:01 am Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback |
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So, are we saying there’s a possibility ....this bus could have came from ......the lab?
VW Birth Certificate people.........maybe a pangolin kissed a turtle? Lol
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sSfejgwbDQ8 |
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Lind Samba Member
Joined: November 06, 2000 Posts: 9915 Location: idaho
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:08 am Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback |
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It is pretty ballsy to make a fake vehicle using a real VIN number from an existing bus. I figured out what was going on last night, and immediately emailed Bob about the fraudulent bus using his VIN number.
Someone is going to lose a bunch of money here. The bus is a total fraud, with an apparently clear title I am sure. This is one of many reasons to be extra suspicious of a freshly dolled up window bus.
I wonder what happens to the bus now? It is not a great idea to own or sell something with a fraudulent VIN number. It seems like it is at risk of being seized by the state vehicle investigator, but then what do they do with the bus? _________________ .
Wanted:
Idaho VW license plate frames or other dealership items.
VWoA literature and early dealership or distributor literature/pictures/information
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PeteSC Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2011 Posts: 881
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:20 am Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback |
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bob1 wrote: |
Doh, i'm the legal owner of the real 329207
and I think that my bus is known,
I have full history, original VIN plate, Old German fahrzeug brief and testemonies from engeneers who worked on it during its 18 months serivice as test car in Technische Entwickelung in Wolfsburg VW facvtories in 1958/59....
I feel so sorry for my bus now its a victim of identity fraude...
Wrote the seller a message, he can't say he's not aware now...
I think my Deluxe is enough discussed on TheSamba so if you dig hard enough everybody can find it...
if You don't and you're not convinced just PM me and I send you pictures of my real VIN.... |
Wow. I wonder if you should also report this to the DMV where the seller is located. Without knowing the status of your bus it seems having your VIN registered to another vehicle could potentially cause sale/titling/registration problems for you in the future. |
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Lind Samba Member
Joined: November 06, 2000 Posts: 9915 Location: idaho
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:43 am Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback |
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Here is a picture of Bob's deluxe from when he first got it in 2003. Bob and Everett are seen discussing the finer points of factory special buses.
The fraudulent bus makers who built the shiny bus got so much wrong about it. I identified 8 different things with the M-code plate which show it to be not original. It looks like they built the bus from their interpretation of the birth certificate, but they didn't know how to read it right. This was a tough one because it is not a normal production bus. They picked an existing, and hugely significant bus with vast provenance to use the VIN number from, what could go wrong? _________________ .
Wanted:
Idaho VW license plate frames or other dealership items.
VWoA literature and early dealership or distributor literature/pictures/information
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PeteSC Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2011 Posts: 881
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:00 am Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback |
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That's crazy. We've seen the Frankenstein 21/23's that have VIN's appropriated from roached buses, where one presumes the fraudsters actually have the rotted carcass that they've pillared the numbers from. If anyone has ever need proof as to why it's not a good idea to publicly share all the digits of their VIN, this is it.
https://www.flhsmv.gov/safety-center/consumer-education/fraud/motor-vehicle-fraud/title-fraud/
Fraud bus is in Florida. It should be reported ASAP. |
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Lind Samba Member
Joined: November 06, 2000 Posts: 9915 Location: idaho
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:17 am Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback |
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PeteSC wrote: |
That's crazy. We've seen the Frankenstein 21/23's that have VIN's appropriated from roached buses, where one presumes the fraudsters actually have the rotted carcass that they've pillared the numbers from. If anyone has ever need proof as to why it's not a good idea to publicly share all the digits of their VIN, this is it.
https://www.flhsmv.gov/safety-center/consumer-education/fraud/motor-vehicle-fraud/title-fraud/
Fraud bus is in Florida. It should be reported ASAP. |
I am trying to wrap my mind around this because it could go either way.
I wonder where they got the VIN. The bus has been at many European shows, and is a very well seen bus. Anybody could have looked at it and seen it in the engine compartment. If the VIN had been publicly posted, then it might have been harder for them to use it since people could find it easier and blow up their fraud. It just happened that I had inspected the original bus in 2003, and Bob had copied off the birth certificate for me to use in my research, so I happened to have the info in my files, and I was able to detect the fraud. I am guessing that not many people knew the VIN from Bob's bus before this, because who cares?
Personally, I don't care if anyone knows the VINs from my cars. I have the provenance on all of them, and what I have is obviously not fake. That said, the real danger is in posting deluxe sunroof vins of junked buses that could be faked because there is not an original bus running around with that VIN anymore.
I have a large stack of M-code plates from junked buses. I will not longer take them to shows as a curiosity for people to thumb through. I am sure I could sell the deluxe sunroof plates, but I wont. _________________ .
Wanted:
Idaho VW license plate frames or other dealership items.
VWoA literature and early dealership or distributor literature/pictures/information
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PeteSC Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2011 Posts: 881
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:50 am Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback |
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Lind wrote: |
PeteSC wrote: |
That's crazy. We've seen the Frankenstein 21/23's that have VIN's appropriated from roached buses, where one presumes the fraudsters actually have the rotted carcass that they've pillared the numbers from. If anyone has ever need proof as to why it's not a good idea to publicly share all the digits of their VIN, this is it.
https://www.flhsmv.gov/safety-center/consumer-education/fraud/motor-vehicle-fraud/title-fraud/
Fraud bus is in Florida. It should be reported ASAP. |
I am trying to wrap my mind around this because it could go either way.
I wonder where they got the VIN. The bus has been at many European shows, and is a very well seen bus. Anybody could have looked at it and seen it in the engine compartment. If the VIN had been publicly posted, then it might have been harder for them to use it since people could find it easier and blow up their fraud. It just happened that I had inspected the original bus in 2003, and Bob had copied off the birth certificate for me to use in my research, so I happened to have the info in my files, and I was able to detect the fraud. I am guessing that not many people knew the VIN from Bob's bus before this, because who cares?
Personally, I don't care if anyone knows the VINs from my cars. I have the provenance on all of them, and what I have is obviously not fake. That said, the real danger is in posting deluxe sunroof vins of junked buses that could be faked because there is not an original bus running around with that VIN anymore.
I have a large stack of M-code plates from junked buses. I will not longer take them to shows as a curiosity for people to thumb through. I am sure I could sell the deluxe sunroof plates, but I wont. |
That all makes sense. I don't know anything about the real bus from which this VIN was pirated. My comments are based more off of "project" buses that people acquire, then share the VIN publicly (along with its detailed features) - I should have specified that. Often those buses are not current on registration with a state's DMV for years, if ever. I could see in cases like that where someone attaches that VIN to their Frankenstein, sells it, and the unsuspecting owner unknowingly titles and registers it. Then if the legit authentic project bus gets roadworthy somewhere down the line, at which point a database is referenced before a registration is issued....and suddenly it appears that the legit bus is the fraud since another has been on the road with it for some time.
I don't think cars taken to shows or that have been registered and roadworthy matter - clearly there are years of consecutive prior registrations to back those up and they are in a state(s) current database. |
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adriano Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2008 Posts: 146 Location: Iseo Lake
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:20 am Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback |
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https://cdn.dealeraccelerate.com/classicmotorcars/...ndow-samba
In this picture you see definitely that it is a post 63 because support of elbow air filter is still on right side (cut). Right side support started with 1500 on 1199841 |
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Erik G Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2002 Posts: 13281 Location: Tejas!
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:47 am Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback |
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I'd love to see the real vin plate compared to this one
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BUCIOBATISTI Samba Member
Joined: April 17, 2002 Posts: 6956 Location: San Diego, California, USA
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:48 am Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback |
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Lind wrote: |
PeteSC wrote: |
That's crazy. We've seen the Frankenstein 21/23's that have VIN's appropriated from roached buses, where one presumes the fraudsters actually have the rotted carcass that they've pillared the numbers from. If anyone has ever need proof as to why it's not a good idea to publicly share all the digits of their VIN, this is it.
https://www.flhsmv.gov/safety-center/consumer-education/fraud/motor-vehicle-fraud/title-fraud/
Fraud bus is in Florida. It should be reported ASAP. |
I am trying to wrap my mind around this because it could go either way.
I wonder where they got the VIN. The bus has been at many European shows, and is a very well seen bus. Anybody could have looked at it and seen it in the engine compartment. If the VIN had been publicly posted, then it might have been harder for them to use it since people could find it easier and blow up their fraud. It just happened that I had inspected the original bus in 2003, and Bob had copied off the birth certificate for me to use in my research, so I happened to have the info in my files, and I was able to detect the fraud. I am guessing that not many people knew the VIN from Bob's bus before this, because who cares?
Personally, I don't care if anyone knows the VINs from my cars. I have the provenance on all of them, and what I have is obviously not fake. That said, the real danger is in posting deluxe sunroof vins of junked buses that could be faked because there is not an original bus running around with that VIN anymore.
I have a large stack of M-code plates from junked buses. I will not longer take them to shows as a curiosity for people to thumb through. I am sure I could sell the deluxe sunroof plates, but I wont. |
Excellent work here, Lind!
Seems to me that a couple scenarios are possible, and one of them wouldn't be the first time I've heard of it..
1, They chose a VIN out of the charts at random. Very unlikely, but possible.
2. They may have attended a show in Europe and saw Bob's Bus there, knowing that it is a legit 23 Walkthru, and also knowing that a European Bus VIN would obviously not exist in the goverment databases in the USA. They could get a Birth Certificate for that number, it would show it as a legit 23 Walkthru, and they could cobble together whatever dogshit fake they wanted with the appearance of authenticity from the Birth Certificate.
As a side note, obviously Volkswagen has no limit on how many times they will issue a Birth Certificate for any given VIN number as they get lost, Buses change hands, etc.
Now what I want to know is exactly what are the odds that this Bus could be outted to this level, this quickly, and with this level of ABSOLUTE certainty? _________________ Please check us out on Instagram at @holygrailgarage
That's the best place to see the latest things we are up to as well as catch an occasional sneak peek of our latest car and parts listings! |
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FarmerBill Samba Member
Joined: July 25, 2017 Posts: 767 Location: New England
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:51 am Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback |
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Why distress the vin plate? Was it an attempt to disguise that it's a repop? Blows my mind when someone tries to fake something like this these days. With the internet everyone who knows anything can examine it online and point out the red flags. And why fake such a rare bus? They might have gotten away with it had they aimed a bit lower.
Reminds me of a joke a Porsche guy told me. " The 917 is one of the rarest cars Porsche made. They built 37 and there's only about 100 surviving today." |
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PeteSC Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2011 Posts: 881
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:01 am Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback |
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FarmerBill wrote: |
Why distress the vin plate? Was it an attempt to disguise that it's a repop? |
My first thought was that it was an original, crusty VIN plate that had numbers re-stamped right over the old. They appear too crisp given how crusty/pitted the rest of the plate is. |
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EverettB Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000 Posts: 69829 Location: Phoenix Metro
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:53 am Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback |
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PeteSC wrote: |
FarmerBill wrote: |
Why distress the vin plate? Was it an attempt to disguise that it's a repop? |
My first thought was that it was an original, crusty VIN plate that had numbers re-stamped right over the old. They appear too crisp given how crusty/pitted the rest of the plate is. |
This was my thought too - original that was restamped.
It is weird that they didn't clean it up much since you can remove that surface rust with various chemicals or lemon juice or soda blasting _________________ How to Post Photos
Everett Barnes - [email protected] | My wanted ads
"Water is the only drink for a wise man" | "Communication prevents complaints"
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery! |
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EverettB Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000 Posts: 69829 Location: Phoenix Metro
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:54 am Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback |
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Good catch - I see that too.
Grabbed the pic to save here:
For general reference:
I saw that left side mount and noticed they added the support there but it wasn't a correct original air cleaner mount.
The whole air cleaner assembly is backwards when mounted on that side and looks weird to me.
I wonder why they put it on the left side with a right-side air cleaner when they could have fixed the right side piece instead.
My '63 1500cc Bus mount for general left-side reference and how the mount looks:
_________________ How to Post Photos
Everett Barnes - [email protected] | My wanted ads
"Water is the only drink for a wise man" | "Communication prevents complaints"
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery! |
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BUCIOBATISTI Samba Member
Joined: April 17, 2002 Posts: 6956 Location: San Diego, California, USA
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:16 pm Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback |
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This process may come in handy for any law enforcement agencies that pursue this...
Link
_________________ Please check us out on Instagram at @holygrailgarage
That's the best place to see the latest things we are up to as well as catch an occasional sneak peek of our latest car and parts listings! |
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BUCIOBATISTI Samba Member
Joined: April 17, 2002 Posts: 6956 Location: San Diego, California, USA
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:21 pm Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback |
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Another thing I should add is that the fit, finish, and materials on the interior of the Bus, as well as a couple tell-tale mistakes they make on many of the Buses they touch, leads me to believe and I, as well as some other friends of mine, have a strong suspicion we know who was involved in the "build" of this Bus.
I will also add that IF that is true, this isn't the first Bus fraudulent Bus they've had their hands on that we've exposed, or the second for that matter.
The pieces keep stacking up... _________________ Please check us out on Instagram at @holygrailgarage
That's the best place to see the latest things we are up to as well as catch an occasional sneak peek of our latest car and parts listings! |
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obus Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2001 Posts: 11070 Location: just off Garden State Parkway Exit 81
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PeteSC Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2011 Posts: 881
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:48 pm Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback |
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EverettB wrote: |
PeteSC wrote: |
FarmerBill wrote: |
Why distress the vin plate? Was it an attempt to disguise that it's a repop? |
My first thought was that it was an original, crusty VIN plate that had numbers re-stamped right over the old. They appear too crisp given how crusty/pitted the rest of the plate is. |
This was my thought too - original that was restamped.
It is weird that they didn't clean it up much since you can remove that surface rust with various chemicals or lemon juice or soda blasting |
The original VIN stamping is usually so fine that with that much pitting and surface rust the existing numbers were probably near invisible, making it easier to stamp new numbers without giving anything way. I bet cleaning it up would run the risk of exposing parts of the original VIN. On second glance it appears they may even have tried to re-distress the new stamping; the color is off a bit, like more silver than orange/brown, between the VIN numbers compared to the patina on the rest of the plate. |
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