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Distributor #3 lobe retard discussion
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Ohio Tom
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:12 am    Post subject: Re: Distributor #3 lobe retard discussion Reply with quote

ONe thing I will never understand: I see many models have 30-32deg advance in them.

What motor on this planet needs 30-32 deg advance in it?

I mean if max is 32deg, then idle is "0".

Never seen a motor run well timed at 0. They sound like a tractor. Lazy down low.

I have much better luck with idle and responsiveness with idle around 10-20deg.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:25 am    Post subject: Re: Distributor #3 lobe retard discussion Reply with quote

Ohio Tom wrote:
ONe thing I will never understand: I see many models have 30-32deg advance in them.

What motor on this planet needs 30-32 deg advance in it?

I mean if max is 32deg, then idle is "0".

Never seen a motor run well timed at 0. They sound like a tractor. Lazy down low.

I have much better luck with idle and responsiveness with idle around 10-20deg.

The stock ones do Tom. You are not building low compression engines that will run on the cheapest possible fuel AND meet bogus emissions targets. That's a HUGE challenge!

Just sayin'...
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:01 am    Post subject: Re: Distributor #3 lobe retard discussion Reply with quote

Just so everyone knows the Sun distributor machines are 60+ year old analog machines. The degree wheel has markings in degrees and they are 2mm apart. Since the distributor spins at 1/2 crank speed so a 3* variance is only 1.5 marks or 3mm. So the distributor needs to be stable enough to see a 3mm difference and that's on a 12" wheel when the other marks are 90* apart.

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The use of an oscilloscope would be way more accurate.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:06 am    Post subject: Re: Distributor #3 lobe retard discussion Reply with quote

The No3 cyl. cam lobe was retarded 2 deg at distributor, 4deg at crankshaft. 3 or 4 deg might not matter in this test (test-resolution/error, manufacturing difference, wear etc) but just to get it correct.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:40 am    Post subject: Re: Distributor #3 lobe retard discussion Reply with quote

Exactly, I tried to make that point at the bottom of my data table but Glenn has done better at illustrating the point.

I've never really had an issue with a static timing point of 0 degrees. I find cold starting issues start to crop up once you get to a static timing point at 15 degrees and above advanced.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Distributor #3 lobe retard discussion Reply with quote

Was there a time later on when this asymmetric cam was discontinued or would I find the same on a mid seventies type-4 distributor?
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Distributor #3 lobe retard discussion Reply with quote

Zed999 wrote:
Was there a time later on when this asymmetric cam was discontinued or would I find the same on a mid seventies type-4 distributor?

As far as I know, Type 4 distributors did not have it.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Distributor #3 lobe retard discussion Reply with quote

Would you add a disclaimer? You can't guarantee this will show up in all the distributors listed. I've not seen it in a few you have listed as it showing up. I've seen it in others that aren't.

I can make a distributor show 3 degrees off by bending the base plate, wearing the bushing, grinding the lobes, etc etc.

The Sun manual states that 2 degrees of variance is acceptable in certain places as well.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Distributor #3 lobe retard discussion Reply with quote

If he was seeing 3* retard at #3 lobe only, I don't think it would be from worn parts. Wouldn't you see scatter, and not just retard, at all lobes?
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Distributor #3 lobe retard discussion Reply with quote

With these distributors with the asymmetric timing, can you feel the #3 cylinder making less power than the others, or is it simply way too subtle to detect with the seat of your pants?
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Distributor #3 lobe retard discussion Reply with quote

Pruneman99 wrote:
If he was seeing 3* retard at #3 lobe only, I don't think it would be from worn parts. Wouldn't you see scatter, and not just retard, at all lobes?


What Tasb is doing is quite valuable but should be taken with a grain of salt.

There is so much that could happen. I was just illustrating a few easy possibilities where the results could be off on happenstance.

There are some distributors where most of the time always see the correction on lobe 3. Then there are others where you see it sometimes.

The Sun machine is not perfect which adds to the variance. Running on a precision lathe/mill and using a digital oscilloscope you'd get better results.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Distributor #3 lobe retard discussion Reply with quote

The shaft could actually be measured as it would have been designed in the machining specs when they were built.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:06 am    Post subject: Re: Distributor #3 lobe retard discussion Reply with quote

Zed999 wrote:
Was there a time later on when this asymmetric cam was discontinued or would I find the same on a mid seventies type-4 distributor?


This is what I'm currently pondering/working on. I have tested two 113 905 205 AN and both are showing two lobes retarded. I'm getting the same result measuring the GL distributors. That's after the true dog house cooler had come into play (with the 113 AN) which makes me question my results. It's been over 100 degrees here which is slowing progress.

As to heimlich's points, I think/hope that I have done a sufficient job warning that the results are open to some error/interpretation.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:13 am    Post subject: Re: Distributor #3 lobe retard discussion Reply with quote

heimlich wrote:
Would you add a disclaimer? You can't guarantee this will show up in all the distributors listed. I've not seen it in a few you have listed as it showing up. I've seen it in others that aren't.

I can make a distributor show 3 degrees off by bending the base plate, wearing the bushing, grinding the lobes, etc etc.

The Sun manual states that 2 degrees of variance is acceptable in certain places as well.


As above, I believe I've satisfied this need.

I've not encountered the situation where some 111 905 205 N distributors ( for example)have asymmetric lobes while some do not. Can you be more specific where you have had this occur?

Are you saying you are artificially grinding cam lobes or bushings? or just being hypothetical? As above these actions would effect all four lobes not just one.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:25 am    Post subject: Re: Distributor #3 lobe retard discussion Reply with quote

kpf wrote:
With these distributors with the asymmetric timing, can you feel the #3 cylinder making less power than the others, or is it simply way too subtle to detect with the seat of your pants?


No, I don't think it's possible to feel this difference at the seat of the pants, too many rotations per second for that.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:27 am    Post subject: Re: Distributor #3 lobe retard discussion Reply with quote

Glenn wrote:
Zed999 wrote:
Was there a time later on when this asymmetric cam was discontinued or would I find the same on a mid seventies type-4 distributor?

As far as I know, Type 4 distributors did not have it.


I will ad a type IV distributor to the testing.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:32 am    Post subject: Re: Distributor #3 lobe retard discussion Reply with quote

By any chance are you able to test the vju4br8/040 cast iron SVDA?
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:03 am    Post subject: Re: Distributor #3 lobe retard discussion Reply with quote

Lingwendil wrote:
By any chance are you able to test the vju4br8/040 cast iron SVDA?

It has the same curve and lobes as the 019 so the results will be the same.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:20 am    Post subject: Re: Distributor #3 lobe retard discussion Reply with quote

tasb wrote:
Glenn wrote:
Zed999 wrote:
Was there a time later on when this asymmetric cam was discontinued or would I find the same on a mid seventies type-4 distributor?

As far as I know, Type 4 distributors did not have it.


I will ad a type IV distributor to the testing.


I don't "think"type 4s had this retard as Glenn already stated.....but this is a GREAT thread and I would love to know for sure.....because.......its a KNOWN defect in type 4 engines that #3 runs hotter because of a combination of the dead end cooling air static pressure issue and the cooling/fan manifold distribution issues with the oil cooler take off.

So....."which" type 4 distributor? There are MANY just like type 1. The D-jet units are quite a bit different in overall housing. If you need one to test from a 411/412/914 I could get one to you.

Ray
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:29 am    Post subject: Re: Distributor #3 lobe retard discussion Reply with quote

Ray,

For that reason I have been looking into some of the other VW distributors. The VJU 4 BR8 Cast iron body has my eye right now because of its 16 degrees of advance. If only it had the retarded #3... that would probably be about as good as a standard points type distributor would get for a mild 2200 (66x103) Type4. That way I can be all in at 28 deg btdc, yet still have 12 deg btdc at idle, which they seem to like.

This is a cool thread. Keep it up guys.

Glen, can the cam/rotor shaft be replaced on an 019 or VJU 4 BR8 to one that has a retarded #3?
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