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challomoner Samba Member
Joined: October 13, 2010 Posts: 1195 Location: IRELAND
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:32 am Post subject: More power please |
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I'm thinking about upgrades for my 2276 street car. Currently running Jeff Denham unwelded heads, 42 + 37.5mm valves, Scat 1.4 rockers and a Raptor cam similar spec to an 86b. I've around 160 hp, power band from 3- 6.5k
Thinking of cb super pros and keep the rest as is. Anybody able to tell me if its a good move or not? |
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bugguy1967 Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2008 Posts: 4338 Location: Los Angeles, CA 90016
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:26 am Post subject: Re: More power please |
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Maybe that, more compression, and more manifold porting. Carb and header size matter too. _________________ "A petrol engine can start readily, run smoothly and give every appearance of being in good order, without necessarily being in good tune." - Colin Campbell, "The Sportscar Engine" |
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Ohio Tom Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2006 Posts: 1657 Location: Marshallville Ohio
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:09 am Post subject: Re: More power please |
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sounds like you have a good match of parts now.
What carbs and exh are you running now?
Plan on changing them too? |
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buguy Samba Member
Joined: November 17, 2003 Posts: 4915 Location: Port Orange, FL
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:12 am Post subject: Re: More power please |
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Slap a turbo on it and make a cool 300 hp! |
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challomoner Samba Member
Joined: October 13, 2010 Posts: 1195 Location: IRELAND
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:43 am Post subject: Re: More power please |
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Few more details, compression is 10.2.1, I don't want to go higher on pump gas.
Exhaust is 1 5/8 speedshop hideaway.
Induction is 45mm throttle bodies from vwspeedshop. I don't particularly like these as plugs and manifold nuts are a nightmare to access due to manifold shape. I was considering getting idf manifolds with the super pros and switch to idf style throttle bodies. |
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stevebaz Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2008 Posts: 189 Location: El Monte CA
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:46 am Post subject: Re: More power please |
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have you had it dyno tuned to make sure you getting all the power you already paid for? |
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challomoner Samba Member
Joined: October 13, 2010 Posts: 1195 Location: IRELAND
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:15 am Post subject: Re: More power please |
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stevebaz wrote: |
have you had it dyno tuned to make sure you getting all the power you already paid for? |
It was dyno tuned when built, in fairness the guy wasn't experienced with air-cooled, I've done more work with the fuel map since then and it improved quite a lot. I've left the ignition pretty much alone as I'm out of my depth there.
I'd like to take it to someone experienced with air-cooled but that would mean travelling to UK.
Imo there isn't much left in it, maybe low end could be improved as there's a dip between 2.5k and 3.3k rpm |
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challomoner Samba Member
Joined: October 13, 2010 Posts: 1195 Location: IRELAND
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:18 am Post subject: Re: More power please |
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buguy wrote: |
Slap a turbo on it and make a cool 300 hp! |
A centre mounted single throttle body with a turbo would help with plug access a ton, I've been thinking about it but it's much more expense and I'd be happy with another 30hp if the super pros would give me that without changing cam. |
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Alstrup Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007 Posts: 7182 Location: Videbaek Denmark
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:28 am Post subject: Re: More power please |
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190 hp is not a problem. But if you want to keep it a street car you may want to reduce your aim a little, and also focus a little more on usable power, not just peak power.
On the other hand, I could "easily" set you up with a 190 hp street combo, even 200, with great driveability, but it would set you a couple of large bills back. _________________ https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993 |
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buguy Samba Member
Joined: November 17, 2003 Posts: 4915 Location: Port Orange, FL
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:12 am Post subject: Re: More power please |
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baz76 wrote: |
buguy wrote: |
Slap a turbo on it and make a cool 300 hp! |
A centre mounted single throttle body with a turbo would help with plug access a ton, I've been thinking about it but it's much more expense and I'd be happy with another 30hp if the super pros would give me that without changing cam. |
I'm not sure it would be that much more expense. Sounds like you've done your homework though and have a good idea what your after. |
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challomoner Samba Member
Joined: October 13, 2010 Posts: 1195 Location: IRELAND
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:43 am Post subject: Re: More power please |
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Alstrup wrote: |
190 hp is not a problem. But if you want to keep it a street car you may want to reduce your aim a little, and also focus a little more on usable power, not just peak power.
On the other hand, I could "easily" set you up with a 190 hp street combo, even 200, with great driveability, but it would set you a couple of large bills back. |
Yes keeping it a street car is top priority, hence trying not to go turbo.
I'm not chasing numbers, I just used the 190 figure basing it off how the car feels now with 160. I'd like more power everywhere if that's possible, not huge amounts just a bit more overall.
From reading about the super pros I think they might help while maintaining street ability, but I'm all ears for any better suggestions.
I'm not dead set on keeping the cam either, but would obviously prefer to keep it unless there's a sizeable gain while maintaining low end by swapping it too. |
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UK Luke 72 Samba Member
Joined: September 07, 2011 Posts: 2867 Location: Little Britain
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Ohio Tom Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2006 Posts: 1657 Location: Marshallville Ohio
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:55 am Post subject: Re: More power please |
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Adding any more cam will cost you bottom end.
Have the manifolds been opened up and matched to the ports in the heads?
With your setup, I think there is HP in your current combo.
You could buy a new set of CB heads with matched ported intake manifolds.
That's about the best performance you can buy out of the box. |
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challomoner Samba Member
Joined: October 13, 2010 Posts: 1195 Location: IRELAND
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:58 am Post subject: Re: More power please |
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UK Luke 72 wrote: |
If your hideaway is the same as mine, that's quite a restriction, Paul said it himself.
Difficulty is getting more power without the revs.
That comes from head work. What do yours flow? |
My dyno guy swore the flange between header and silencer was holding it back but I didn't pay him much attention as I thought Paul knew what he was doing.
The heads are small oval port, flow around 170 cfms according to jd, I haven't had them tested. They're 041s though so not sure if there's anything left in them to hunt for.
Exhaust is definitely something I'll look into first though to see what gains can be found there.
Any recommendations for exhausts anybody? |
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challomoner Samba Member
Joined: October 13, 2010 Posts: 1195 Location: IRELAND
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:05 am Post subject: Re: More power please |
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Ohio Tom wrote: |
Adding any more cam will cost you bottom end.
Have the manifolds been opened up and matched to the ports in the heads?
With your setup, I think there is HP in your current combo.
You could buy a new set of CB heads with matched ported intake manifolds.
That's about the best performance you can buy out of the box. |
The manifolds I have needed welding internally to match the intake ports on the heads, not much but slightly. They were then match ported but only the bottom where they meet the heads.
I have a feeling the 45mm TBS are too big for my ports, but that's just an uneducated hunch. If I switch to idf style I have more options in size so could go smaller.
Perhaps some better sized tbs, some better matched manifolds and a better exhaust would find me the gains I'm after |
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GARRICK.CLARK Samba Member
Joined: June 30, 2012 Posts: 1267 Location: Lancashire UK
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:30 am Post subject: Re: More power please |
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Buy mine, look on VZI |
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buguy Samba Member
Joined: November 17, 2003 Posts: 4915 Location: Port Orange, FL
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:51 am Post subject: Re: More power please |
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baz76 wrote: |
Alstrup wrote: |
190 hp is not a problem. But if you want to keep it a street car you may want to reduce your aim a little, and also focus a little more on usable power, not just peak power.
On the other hand, I could "easily" set you up with a 190 hp street combo, even 200, with great driveability, but it would set you a couple of large bills back. |
Yes keeping it a street car is top priority, hence trying not to go turbo.
I'm not chasing numbers, I just used the 190 figure basing it off how the car feels now with 160. I'd like more power everywhere if that's possible, not huge amounts just a bit more overall.
From reading about the super pros I think they might help while maintaining street ability, but I'm all ears for any better suggestions.
I'm not dead set on keeping the cam either, but would obviously prefer to keep it unless there's a sizeable gain while maintaining low end by swapping it too. |
Not trying to sell you on it, but i think a turbo makes for a great street car. You can make the engine more tame so when off boost it's just a mild compression engine, no stress. Add in the boost and it becomes a beast! |
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GARRICK.CLARK Samba Member
Joined: June 30, 2012 Posts: 1267 Location: Lancashire UK
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:01 pm Post subject: Re: More power please |
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I believe turbo motors in a street vw are too much for a street vw. Which makes them a hand full to drive, a BIT like a sports bike. Just how I like em really.
Sports bikes are dangerous and so are big power air cooled turbo bugs. |
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buguy Samba Member
Joined: November 17, 2003 Posts: 4915 Location: Port Orange, FL
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:29 pm Post subject: Re: More power please |
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No biggy.... Turn the boost down a little. Problem solved. I'm more of a turn it up more guy myself... |
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challomoner Samba Member
Joined: October 13, 2010 Posts: 1195 Location: IRELAND
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:51 pm Post subject: Re: More power please |
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Turbo sounds great guys and it's something I've considered and want but not yet, my bug is original paint never welded, I haven't cut it for removable valance or carb access holes and I'm not going to.
Centre mount tb and turbo would fit the car great and give me great access for servicing, but and it's a big but, with 250-300 hp at your disposal you're gonna want to use it, I'd need a built gearbox, solid mounts, a roll cage etc and this isn't the car for all that, I've a project 69 that maybe in future I'd go all out with, but I'd like another year from my current car, just with a little more power.
Idf manifolds and TBS would help a lot with plug access I think, that's something I'd really like to address as simple service jobs require engine removal as things are. |
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