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markeaton Samba Member
Joined: July 09, 2013 Posts: 686 Location: Seacoast NH
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:48 am Post subject: My quest for a 23-window question |
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All-
I doubt I am alone in the desire to own the samba. We all see the prices and it is well out of reach for most of us.
Of course there are the ones that need TONS of work. For me personally, the work doesnt scare me off. BUT
I am not a welder or paint guy. I am okay at most of the other facets of restoration.
I do have a couple of good friends that are welders and fitters and have worked on automobiles. Ive prodded one of them and they are willing to engage in the long and costly project should I ever find one.
Of course its the endeavor of getting one in as best shape as possible at a reasonable cost.
My question is really, do drawings, plans, blueprints, etc. exist for say an early-mid 1960s 23-window detailing overall bus dimensions for the frame, pillars, doors, window frames, etc. ?
What escapes me is how does one know if say, for example, sections of frames are out of line and we need to know if to pull tighter, or cut and re-weld, or replace and be certain a replacement sheet metal placement is accurate?
I have seen loads of great pics on the site with some great work, but not able to put my fingers on anything definitive. Maybe nothing does exist, but thought I would ask.
Thank you
-Mark |
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markeaton Samba Member
Joined: July 09, 2013 Posts: 686 Location: Seacoast NH
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widehatch Samba Member
Joined: May 27, 2007 Posts: 775 Location: Memphis, TN aka The Armpit of the South
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markeaton Samba Member
Joined: July 09, 2013 Posts: 686 Location: Seacoast NH
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:02 pm Post subject: Re: My quest for a 23-window question |
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I actually just discovered them a few weeks ago looking at metal spare parts.
But, it's the old original one I want
Although I can see buying some things from them and WW as part of the restoration. |
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NUTSFORBUSES Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2016 Posts: 560 Location: I don't recognize it anymore
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:04 pm Post subject: Re: My quest for a 23-window question |
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I've had buses for over 40 years, unless you are familiar w them I would not go there. The costs will really hit you down the road. I now have a 21 and even in good shape it is still a challenge-time-money-time-money.
Knowing the cost of just the differences like skylights and roof, headliner, belly pans and all those mechanicals that go with it.
Rust buckets are still expensive and you will be completely rebuilding it.
If you are sourcing it to an accurate restore it will cost an arm and a leg.
My 21 is a street machine I drive as much as I can, but accuracy is not my goal-180 HP 4 wheel disc's IRS and on and on it goes.
Fun is my goal,, my friend had a PERFECT 23-he was afraid to drive it-it did sell for 220k and his O2 levels rose to normal. Good luck in your quest. If you're married, get a divorce now before you start. One thing I must point out is an 11 13 21 or 23 have the same feel except for a lot more wind/noise with a ragtop, and a shit load of windex. _________________ kaiser kills kids.com |
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mandraks Samba Member
Joined: November 28, 2004 Posts: 7050 Location: Lawrenceville, Ga
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:13 pm Post subject: Re: My quest for a 23-window question |
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it seems to me that you would be better off buying a "standard" in good condition, and converting it, extra windows are easy, grumpy's will put in a correct sunroof and skylight windows, and belly pans. All you need now is a complete interior, new deluxe trim, and so on.
Your welder friends are going to still be plenty helpful doing rust repair, welding in the extra side windows, rear corners with windows, etc, belly pans, you name it. _________________ regards
Uli
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'53 3-Fold Oval, L35 Metallic Blue, looking for a narrow hatch panel |
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NUTSFORBUSES Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2016 Posts: 560 Location: I don't recognize it anymore
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:57 pm Post subject: Re: My quest for a 23-window question |
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mandraks wrote: |
it seems to me that you would be better off buying a "standard" in good condition, and converting it, extra windows are easy, grumpy's will put in a correct sunroof and skylight windows, and belly pans. All you need now is a complete interior, new deluxe trim, and so on.
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I agree, But I can't stand it when guys ruin a nice camper or what ever to "get the Look". I think it also ruins the value.
Think about what a Shelby CLONE is worth.
Maybe consider a Bazillion Bus/Brazil so it don't hurt so much.
Grumpy's makes some very nice parts, but its far from cheap once the glue is dried on that new headliner. Pans, roof parts, skylights, canvas, seals, all the labor/holes, headliner/s, installed and sewn-I see 6 to 8k just above the drip edge. Buy Brazilian, then install the pans b/c the only pans in Brazil are in the kitchen. _________________ kaiser kills kids.com |
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Lind Samba Member
Joined: November 06, 2000 Posts: 9915 Location: idaho
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:28 pm Post subject: Re: My quest for a 23-window question |
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If you want to own an original 23 window, don't go shopping with less than $100k. A cheap original 23 window will cost you more in the end and not be as nice of a bus.
If you can be happy with a clone, then you can save maybe $25k-$50k off the total costs of the bus.
A cheap bus is not good, and a good bus is not cheap. _________________ .
Wanted:
Idaho VW license plate frames or other dealership items.
VWoA literature and early dealership or distributor literature/pictures/information
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Erik G Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2002 Posts: 13278 Location: Tejas!
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:31 pm Post subject: Re: My quest for a 23-window question |
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Lind wrote: |
If you want to own an original 23 window, don't go shopping with less than $100k. A cheap original 23 window will cost you more in the end and not be as nice of a bus.
If you can be happy with a clone, then you can save maybe $25k-$50k off the total costs of the bus.
A cheap bus is not good, and a good bus is not cheap. |
Quoted for truth. It's always been this way, only the dollar amt has changed. You used to be able to find decent ones in the wild but that's mostly gone now. |
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sub-hatchtim Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2006 Posts: 2610 Location: Phoenix AZ
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:39 pm Post subject: Re: My quest for a 23-window question |
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Lind knows things
Listen to Lind _________________ 58' pg/sg silo fridge westy
58 Dove blue singlecab
76 911S |
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markeaton Samba Member
Joined: July 09, 2013 Posts: 686 Location: Seacoast NH
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Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:32 am Post subject: Re: My quest for a 23-window question |
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Thank you all for the feedback. Very good food for thought.
I currently just wrapped up a full restore for a 1967 13-window. That was my first bus (I've have two other beetles I worked on for restore). But I have the "bus bug".
I realize that it might never happen (getting a 23-window), but living in NH, I have this dream of riding thru the back roads of New England and stumbling upon that rare find in a barn.... and then I woke up |
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markeaton Samba Member
Joined: July 09, 2013 Posts: 686 Location: Seacoast NH
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Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:51 am Post subject: Re: My quest for a 23-window question |
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Just wrapped it up last week.
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markeaton Samba Member
Joined: July 09, 2013 Posts: 686 Location: Seacoast NH
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Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:34 am Post subject: Re: My quest for a 23-window question |
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Reading thru all the comments... suppose I did decide to use Grumpy's metal roof/window parts to make my 13-window to a 21-window.
Does that do anything to the value of the bus I have? I know a lot of VW "purists" would probably not want to pay a fair market value if I ever sold it since it was altered. |
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Lind Samba Member
Joined: November 06, 2000 Posts: 9915 Location: idaho
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Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:01 am Post subject: Re: My quest for a 23-window question |
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markeaton wrote: |
Reading thru all the comments... suppose I did decide to use Grumpy's metal roof/window parts to make my 13-window to a 21-window.
Does that do anything to the value of the bus I have? I know a lot of VW "purists" would probably not want to pay a fair market value if I ever sold it since it was altered. |
It would substantially increase the value of your bus, as well as the fun factor.
Purists would never buy your bus anyway, their tastes are usually for earlier and unrestored buses. _________________ .
Wanted:
Idaho VW license plate frames or other dealership items.
VWoA literature and early dealership or distributor literature/pictures/information
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markeaton Samba Member
Joined: July 09, 2013 Posts: 686 Location: Seacoast NH
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Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:04 am Post subject: Re: My quest for a 23-window question |
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Thanks Lind !!! |
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Patiently Impatient Samba Member
Joined: September 28, 2020 Posts: 128 Location: Tri-State
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Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:34 am Post subject: Re: My quest for a 23-window question |
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markeaton wrote: |
Reading thru all the comments... suppose I did decide to use Grumpy's metal roof/window parts to make my 13-window to a 21-window.
Does that do anything to the value of the bus I have? I know a lot of VW "purists" would probably not want to pay a fair market value if I ever sold it since it was altered. |
Pretty much what Lind said. It would definitely increase the value of your bus given what the general market considers a valuable bus (a bus with "all the windows").
I don't really mind when people take a 13 window and convert it to a 21 window. I only get annoyed when people take a 15 window and convert it to a 23 window |
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markeaton Samba Member
Joined: July 09, 2013 Posts: 686 Location: Seacoast NH
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Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:53 am Post subject: Re: My quest for a 23-window question |
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As I mentioned, I have really enjoyed the bus restoration project. In my experience, I found it MUCH easier to work on than a beetle.
I just thought a full resto on a genuine 23 would be a blast and feed my new found bus addiction
But maybe a 21-window conversion might be the compromise.
Thanks again to all for replies. Very helpful and eye opening. |
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NUTSFORBUSES Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2016 Posts: 560 Location: I don't recognize it anymore
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Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:11 pm Post subject: Re: My quest for a 23-window question |
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Grumpy's parts are First rate stuff, that said, the cost for parts are one thing. Assembly is another. Will you use OG skylights? cost 400 vs 1500 (I have a set of 8 nearly new cond. in green) Canvas vs Vinyl<not much diff. roof rails and mechanicals > $1800. skylight seals $200 German. Then you have all the interior headliner & headliner for ragtop upholstery. What is left is metal roof cost and welding and it looks like you expect to paint. Big expense after buying a Bus.
I think you will increase the value, but you may end-up putting much more into then getting out if you sell. _________________ kaiser kills kids.com |
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Douglas Denlinger Samba Member
Joined: May 23, 2003 Posts: 1382 Location: Arizona's version of the east coast
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Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:22 pm Post subject: Re: My quest for a 23-window question |
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Check your PM _________________ Transporter Restorations
Upholstery Haus
Active 23 Window Samba Collector/Restorer,since 1986 |
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ImAddicted Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2012 Posts: 1195 Location: Unorganized Territory, Maine
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Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 3:41 pm Post subject: Re: My quest for a 23-window question |
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markeaton wrote: |
I realize that it might never happen (getting a 23-window), but living in NH, I have this dream of riding thru the back roads of New England and stumbling upon that rare find in a barn.... and then I woke up |
For a long, long time there was a 23 in Newmarket at a now-gone body shop/junkyard right at corner of 108 & 85. He wanted $1600 for it back in the early 90s. AFAIK, it got crushed with all the beetles and T3s when the property sold 1998-2000. It was rough but complete. I wish I had a time machine _________________ 1979 Transporter (sold)
KC1MUR
strfish7 wrote: |
Original condition, which means something different on this forum than anywhere else! |
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