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Prairie Maus
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:58 pm    Post subject: Help - Hoses and vales? Reply with quote

Hello all, long time lurker, first time posting.

I need guidance on a couple of things...

Background: helping a friend on a 1969 type 3 Fuel Injected Automatic Notchback (at least he says it's a 69)

First question is: there is a cloth braided hose coming off a 'valve?' on the bottom square pan of the bottom of the transmission (see Photo 1) When I got the car it was just hanging there.... where does it connect? I cannot find Photos anywhere, and no I don't have the Bentley for it (owner too cheap) and I'm a Vanagon owner (I DO have the bentley for her, Maus)


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Next I have a rubber hose on top of the engine, pass side that comes off a 'valve?' and is just plugged...

You can see I've bent it around so you can see the start and end.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Next is some Wiring.. there were a couple of wires in a 'Tan' sub harness with three white wires coming out of it, one (as you can see was extended) and connects to the block (ground) but the other two were broken off... by the way they were 'laying' on the engine and the 'memory' of the shape 'suggested' to me that they go to the 'unknown sensor' - (next pic and question) and labelled it with the matching tape. on the top of the 'unknown sensor' was the female spade with a teeny tiny bit of white wire... that's what lead me to believe it 'might' connect there. Here's the pic

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


And lastly.. what the heck is this for? I doesn't seem to be connected to anything as the 'sensor' is mounted in a bracket but the bottom of it is just floating (not embedded in anything) here's pic...


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Well, thank you everyone for putting up with my first post..
I have, for years now learned many things from all of you on the Samba and am very grateful that you all take the time to share your experiences and expertise.

Cheers from Winterpeg!
Mike and Maus
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Tram
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Help Reply with quote

1. Automatic transmission modulator valve. It should connect to a vacuum port on the bottom of the throttle body. both ends should be clamped.

2. Optional cold start injector, 1968/9 only.
3. On your broken wires, I *think* one goes to the other terminal on the cold start and the other goes to... #4
4. Thermo time switch for the cold start valve. It senses the ambient air temp and grounds at temperatures below 40 degrees F, 4 degrees C. Power to the cold start valve is constant, and the thermotime switch grounds the CSV when it's needed. There's a big round relay that a bunch of wires go to off to the right side of the engine bay. That relay controls how long the CSV squirts raw fuel through the hose between it and the throttle body to make it start at low temps.

Hope this all sort of helps.

A word of warning- if you get this thing running, please consider pulling the engine and transmission to replace the pinion seals before you drive it any more than around the lot. If you don't, you risk pumping all the ATF into the final drive and destroying it in VERY short order.

This car will be a sh!t ton of intense work but the end result will be well worth it. Injected automatic notchbacks are quite rare! Very Happy
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sjbartnik
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:47 am    Post subject: Re: Help - Hoses and vales? Reply with quote

Just judging by the condition of the engine bay the car needs a lot of quality time but if "owner is too cheap" to buy the Bentley I doubt the car is gonna get what it needs.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:03 am    Post subject: Re: Help - Hoses and vales? Reply with quote

sjbartnik wrote:
Just judging by the condition of the engine bay the car needs a lot of quality time but if "owner is too cheap" to buy the Bentley I doubt the car is gonna get what it needs.


Agreed. But most of the Cold Start system could be removed.
Tram, I thought the rear plate on the IAD (Intake Air Distributor) had a tube welded to it for the AT vacuum modulator hose for 68-69 models.
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Prairie Maus
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:28 am    Post subject: Re: Help Reply with quote

Tram wrote:


Thank You Tram for the very fast reply, I will look at it today.

Hope this all sort of helps.

A word of warning- if you get this thing running, please consider pulling the engine and transmission to replace the pinion seals before you drive it any more than around the lot. If you don't, you risk pumping all the ATF into the final drive and destroying it in VERY short order.

This car will be a sh!t ton of intense work but the end result will be well worth it. Injected automatic notchbacks are quite rare! Very Happy


Do you have a link to a diagram of the seals that you mention here? and a source for parts or a Vw part number?

Thanks Again and keep up the great work!

Cheers

Mike and Maus
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Prairie Maus
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:37 am    Post subject: Re: Help - Hoses and vales? Reply with quote

sjbartnik wrote:
Just judging by the condition of the engine bay the car needs a lot of quality time but if "owner is too cheap" to buy the Bentley I doubt the car is gonna get what it needs.


I may have miss-spoke about the owner, sorry all... I was frustrated and bleeding (little vampire of a vehicle). It's not that he is 'Too Cheap" but is hesitant to spend a lot of money 'right now' on a project that may be a LOT more costly than he (read - the Wife) realizes and may not be able to afford, what with covid and all that that entails.

As you all know, almost every job on our beloved VW's ends up costing Waaaay more money and or time than what we planed for. One has to be truly in love, or mad as a hatter to forebear these trials and tribulations that we suffer to keep these baby's alive.

So, to all you Mad Bastards and Lovers out there, you are not alone, and thanks for keeping me educated and positive!
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Prairie Maus
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:37 am    Post subject: Re: Help Reply with quote

Tram wrote:

A word of warning- if you get this thing running, please consider pulling the engine and transmission to replace the pinion seals before you drive it any more than around the lot. If you don't, you risk pumping all the ATF into the final drive and destroying it in VERY short order.
Very Happy


Is this what you mean? The seal between the torque converter and the transmission?

https://www.cip1.ca/ProductDetails.asp?utm_source=...%2D089%2DD
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Tram
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Help - Hoses and vales? Reply with quote

Bobnotch wrote:
sjbartnik wrote:
Just judging by the condition of the engine bay the car needs a lot of quality time but if "owner is too cheap" to buy the Bentley I doubt the car is gonna get what it needs.


Agreed. But most of the Cold Start system could be removed.
Tram, I thought the rear plate on the IAD (Intake Air Distributor) had a tube welded to it for the AT vacuum modulator hose for 68-69 models.


I've never seen this. On all models, the block under the plenum where the hose for the MPS goes either has another pipette for the Automatic or an aluminum plug in the hole opposite the MPS pipette.

IIRC the 1973 models with the 5 prong E system had a pipe that came off the back plate of the IAD but if memory serves this was for emission control.
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Tram
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Help Reply with quote

Prairie Maus wrote:
Tram wrote:

A word of warning- if you get this thing running, please consider pulling the engine and transmission to replace the pinion seals before you drive it any more than around the lot. If you don't, you risk pumping all the ATF into the final drive and destroying it in VERY short order.
Very Happy


Is this what you mean? The seal between the torque converter and the transmission?

https://www.cip1.ca/ProductDetails.asp?utm_source=...%2D089%2DD


No, but it would be a good idea to replace that seal as well.
Here's a link to the original factory repair manual on PDF:
https://www.vwtypethree.com/downloads/pdf/1600-AutoTrans.pdf

The pinion seals- there is an inner and an outer- are what keep the trans and diff from swapping fluids. The governor seal likely should also be replaced.

I would approach this as getting it to run first, then get it warmed up and drain/ pull the trans pan to see what the smell of the fluid and the debris in the pan tell us.

Just plan on it costing more than (the wife) anticipates. How rusty is it?
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Tram
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Help Reply with quote

Prairie Maus wrote:
Tram wrote:


Thank You Tram for the very fast reply, I will look at it today.

Hope this all sort of helps.

A word of warning- if you get this thing running, please consider pulling the engine and transmission to replace the pinion seals before you drive it any more than around the lot. If you don't, you risk pumping all the ATF into the final drive and destroying it in VERY short order.

This car will be a sh!t ton of intense work but the end result will be well worth it. Injected automatic notchbacks are quite rare! Very Happy


Do you have a link to a diagram of the seals that you mention here? and a source for parts or a Vw part number?

Thanks Again and keep up the great work!

Cheers

Mike and Maus


Use the PDF manual I linked to above for diagrams.
Part numbers for the pinion seals are Timken 48192DR and 78734NV. Don't recall which is inner/ outer.

Governor seal is Lemco 40682 or 003507125A. There's also a big O ring seal for the governor but I don't have a P/N.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Help Reply with quote

Tram wrote:
Prairie Maus wrote:
Tram wrote:


Thank You Tram for the very fast reply, I will look at it today.

Hope this all sort of helps.

A word of warning- if you get this thing running, please consider pulling the engine and transmission to replace the pinion seals before you drive it any more than around the lot. If you don't, you risk pumping all the ATF into the final drive and destroying it in VERY short order.

This car will be a sh!t ton of intense work but the end result will be well worth it. Injected automatic notchbacks are quite rare! Very Happy


Do you have a link to a diagram of the seals that you mention here? and a source for parts or a Vw part number?

Thanks Again and keep up the great work!

Cheers

Mike and Maus


Use the PDF manual I linked to above for diagrams.
Part numbers for the pinion seals are Timken 48192DR and 78734NV. Don't recall which is inner/ outer.

Governor seal is Lemco 40682 or 003507125A. There's also a big O ring seal for the governor but I don't have a P/N.



The big o-ring seal is 96mm diameter. I do not know the cross section.

The part # is 003 325 381

https://www.vancafe.com/003325381-p/003325381.htm

https://www.buslab.com/product-p/003325381.htm

Ray
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Prairie Maus
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Help Reply with quote

Tram wrote:
Just plan on it costing more than (the wife) anticipates. How rusty is it?


The Bad: She has quite a number of major rust holes in just about every section of the car, although the pans are good. I found a major hole today by the gas fill inside the front trunk. Lots of swollen pockets, lots of bondo covering up major dents and or holes. Lots of surface rust spots on the exterior finish. Thru rust on both eyebrows. Rear quarters at the bottom near the jack points are coming away from the body. All the window seals are toast, the door seals and pretty much anything rubber that was exposed to the sun is toast. The hood and trunk seals are mostly gone. The engine lid seal is gone. Mould and mildew under the engine compartment 'carpet'.
The engine cover is a mess. Gas Tank is Rusty internally, cannot open the Gas fill door as the release 'cable' is seized. Doors have good hinges and are aligned properly, open and close nicely, but there is a lot of rust in front of both doors in the front quarters. It's almost as if it was hit in the nose and pushed everything back a half inch and someone pushed it back out and bondo'd over the wrinkles, if that make sense.

The good: suspension seems good, steering is good, bearings all seem good. Brakes are 'ok', rear passenger wheel is a little 'sticky'.

I got it running today with a little gas direct into the intake manifold, and she sounds good. Starter is strong. She fired up right away. I had changed the oil, cleaned the strainer, cleaned the plugs, put a little Marvels into each cylinder before putting plugs back in. Cleaned Distributor cap and rotor, cleaned points. Lots of de-greasing and general grunge removal. Cleaned and painted the Torque Converter, seal looked good, and no leaks yet. No engine oil leaks either, yet.

The fuel pump is getting 11.7v (battery is 12.7) but is not spinning, so I'll check the fuse tomorrow and check/change the filter, possibly take the pump off and see if I can clean it up and get it spinning again.

He does have all the exterior chrome trim strips, yeah!

So hopefully tomorrow I'll get the fuel pump working. Then I'll flush out the lines to and from the engine. I'll run a bypass to connect the send and return to exclude the injectors, flush it through a couple filters. Then I thought that I'd take the injectors and engine fuel lines and flush the lines and clean the injectors.

Weeeee.....
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Prairie Maus
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:12 am    Post subject: Re: Help Reply with quote

Tram wrote:

No, but it would be a good idea to replace that seal as well.
Here's a link to the original factory repair manual on PDF:
https://www.vwtypethree.com/downloads/pdf/1600-AutoTrans.pdf

The pinion seals- there is an inner and an outer- are what keep the trans and diff from swapping fluids. The governor seal likely should also be replaced.

I would approach this as getting it to run first, then get it warmed up and drain/ pull the trans pan to see what the smell of the fluid and the debris in the pan tell us.



Holy Moley Batman that's sooo far above my pay grade, lol. Now, I could probably do it, possibly even without all the specialty VW tools, but it would take me a month of sundays. Just reading through this glorious document of german engineering, I am astonished by the level of detail and clear instruction. I especially love the Picture on the bottom of page 2-3 Section H27, it looks like a maze, I cannot even begin to understand how anyone could have thought of that in the first place. It's like a work of art.

At any Rate, I'm tasked with getting it running, not the full restoration job. I'm not really a body guy. Don't get me wrong, Maus (my vanaru) has a lot of rust that I cut out and welded in patches, welded up window frame holes, pulled out dents and gave her a couple of paint jobs, but I hate it... I'll do it for my baby, but you cannot pay me enough to do all that for someone else's baby.

and off we go....
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Mike Fisher
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:21 am    Post subject: Re: Help - Hoses and vales? Reply with quote

The 003 automatic transmission is a relatively simple Borg Warner design & can be rebuilt locally with a rebuild kit.
Loan the Transmission Shop your brown Bentley manual for their use in rebuilding it.
Easiest by buy some rust free fenders.
I have fenders/inner fenders/engine lids etc to sell or 'cut to order' for repair sections if you show us pictures of your rusty areas.
Your local Hot Rod Shop can do your welding if you need them.
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Prairie Maus
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:32 am    Post subject: Re: Help - Hoses and vales? Reply with quote

Mike Fisher wrote:
The 003 automatic transmission is a relatively simple Borg Warner design & can be rebuilt locally with a rebuild kit.
Loan the Transmission Shop your brown Bentley manual for their use in rebuilding it.
Easiest by buy some rust free fenders.
I have fenders/inner fenders/engine lids etc to sell or 'cut to order' for repair sections if you show us pictures of your rusty areas.
Your local Hot Rod Shop can do your welding if you need them.


Thanks for this Mike... I shall pass along the info.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 3:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Help Reply with quote

Prairie Maus wrote:
Tram wrote:
Just plan on it costing more than (the wife) anticipates. How rusty is it?


The Bad: She has quite a number of major rust holes in just about every section of the car, although the pans are good. I found a major hole today by the gas fill inside the front trunk. Lots of swollen pockets, lots of bondo covering up major dents and or holes. Lots of surface rust spots on the exterior finish. Thru rust on both eyebrows. Rear quarters at the bottom near the jack points are coming away from the body. All the window seals are toast, the door seals and pretty much anything rubber that was exposed to the sun is toast. The hood and trunk seals are mostly gone. The engine lid seal is gone. Mould and mildew under the engine compartment 'carpet'.

The fuel pump is getting 11.7v (battery is 12.7) but is not spinning, so I'll check the fuse tomorrow and check/change the filter, possibly take the pump off and see if I can clean it up and get it spinning again.

He does have all the exterior chrome trim strips, yeah!

So hopefully tomorrow I'll get the fuel pump working. Then I'll flush out the lines to and from the engine. I'll run a bypass to connect the send and return to exclude the injectors, flush it through a couple filters. Then I thought that I'd take the injectors and engine fuel lines and flush the lines and clean the injectors.

Weeeee.....


I'd get with Mike on the inner front clip metal. I only say that as the frunk metal is the same thru the body styles. If you have a few hours of time see the link in my signature about my 71 Notch. That car was very rusty, and I showed how I went thru fixing most of it.

As for the pump, you might want to look into the E2000 Airtex pump, or the E10160 pump from O'Reilly's (frame rail pump for 85 to 90 Ford Ranger) as that's what a bunch of us with FI have gone to, saving the expensive Bosch pump for the Porsche guys. Here is a thread write up on swapping it out. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=488576
Keep in mind that the 411/412 group has the same issue as the type 3 crowd, and the Airtex pumps are a good alternative and can be had almost anywhere in the USA.
I hope this helps.
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71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote:
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives."
Tram wrote:
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed".
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