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jimf909 Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014 Posts: 7466 Location: WA/ID
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Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:26 pm Post subject: Re: Real time help in Kalispell |
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teej wrote: |
Can the starter be “jumped” right at the starter by bridging from main connection with 12.7v to that tab? Safety: in nuetral, e brake set. |
Yes it can be. A screwdriver, pair of pliers, etc. will accomplish the task of jumping the contacts to energize the solenoid and spin the starter. The beauty of that is you can give it a firm tap at the same time. _________________ - Jim
Abscate wrote: |
Do not get killed, do not kill others.
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Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro). |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50338
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Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:23 pm Post subject: Re: Real time help in Kalispell |
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teej wrote: |
Can the starter be “jumped” right at the starter by bridging from main connection with 12.7v to that tab? Safety: in nuetral, e brake set. |
Make up a 6" long (16 or 14 AWG) jumper with a 1/4" female spade on one end and 1/2" of bare wire on the other and toss it into the glove box. Easy to use with little chance of accidentally shorting something out.
To use just remove the #50 wire on the solenoid and install the female spade end of your jumper in its place. When ready to start just push the bare end against the B+ post and hold it there as the starter slams noisily into action and the engine roars to life.
As others note, the tranny needs to be in neutral, the parking brake on, and the wheels chocked as being run over by your own rig is not something you want on your resume.
Last edited by Wildthings on Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:37 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22641 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:00 am Post subject: Re: Real time help in Kalispell |
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SCM wrote: |
The inability to bump start is the No. 1 reason (of only 2) that I sometimes wish I didn’t have an automatic. But given our fondness of camping in isolated places, it’s a big one.
With the questionable quality of replacement parts, how should one decide whether to preemptively replace a starter that’s working fine - but AFAIK is 30 years old? |
By taking it off the car and having it rebuilt by a good auto electric shop instead of bolting on a shiny piece of crap from Ulan Bator and thinking it’s good. _________________ .ssS! |
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jimf909 Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014 Posts: 7466 Location: WA/ID
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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:10 am Post subject: Re: Real time help in Kalispell |
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Wildthings wrote: |
teej wrote: |
Can the starter be “jumped” right at the starter by bridging from main connection with 12.7v to that tab? Safety: in nuetral, e brake set. |
Make up a 6" long jump with a female spade one end and 1/2" of bare wire on the other and toss it into the glove box. Easy to use with little chance of accidentally shorting something out. |
Or you can do it the fancy way.
My dad much preferred the screwdriver. Pliers, w/out insulation on the handles, are much better because the span is so easily adjustable. Use caution, not only for shorts, but sparks and the energy of being so close to the starter can be a bit alarming.
_________________ - Jim
Abscate wrote: |
Do not get killed, do not kill others.
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Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro). |
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sjbartnik Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2011 Posts: 5994 Location: Brooklyn
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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:29 am Post subject: Re: Real time help in Kalispell |
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I always did it with the big Craftsman screwdriver.
Before crawling under:
1) Put transmission in neutral!! Double check!!
2) Set parking brake
3) Chock wheels if you have a chock.
Crawl under and very carefully short terminal 30 on the solenoid (it's the big ring terminal where the battery connects) to the spade terminal (terminal 50) using the screwdriver shank. Be prepared for the sparks and the fact that the engine starting right next to your head is louder than when you are in the driver's seat.
Be careful not to short terminal 30 to ground with the screwdriver!
If the van is in gear when you do this, the starter will crank the engine and the van will roll forward and run you over. _________________ 1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650 |
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SCM Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2011 Posts: 3115 Location: Bozeman MT
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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:17 am Post subject: Re: Real time help in Kalispell |
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Abscate wrote: |
By taking it off the car and having it rebuilt by a good auto electric shop instead of bolting on a shiny piece of crap from Ulan Bator and thinking it’s good. |
Wildthings wrote: |
You can pull it and disassemble it enough to see the brushes and the commutator. If the brushes are still sitting high in their holders it has life left as is, but if the commutator looks decent and the brushes are near their end, put new brushes in it (requires soldering) and grease the bushings and it should last for a long long time still. |
Sweet, I've been looking for another project _________________ '91 Westfalia GL Automatic (GTA "Turbo" Rebuild w/Peloquin) and 2.3L GoWesty Engine |
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dobryan Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006 Posts: 16503 Location: Brookeville, MD
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AndyBees Samba Member
Joined: January 31, 2008 Posts: 2329 Location: Southeast Kentucky
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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:32 am Post subject: Re: Real time help in Kalispell |
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Back in the day (college years in the late 60s early 70s), I saw a lot of those old 6 volt Beetles with a hole cut cut behind the back seat to access the starter and usually a hammer laying nearby ....LOL
Wild Things, I've never seen a solenoid with grease in it ......... I always cleaned the plunger and cylinder extremely well, flushed out with brake cleaner, etc., and maybe the use of some 400 grit sand paper, then spray with Silicone lube ...
There is a tremendous current loss thru the #50 starter wire from the ignition to the Solenoid, thus, the installation of a Relay will solve most of the starter issues, especially when hot.
Lastly, every owner of a vintage VW needs to learn how to kick start ...... practice the procedure in case you ever need to do it ... in my opinion, 3rd gear works best, especially if not much of a hill or if people are pushing the vehicle on flat ground. _________________ '84 Vanagon Tin-top, ALH TDI. 1989 Tin-top
1983 Air-cool, 225k miles, 180k miles mine. Seven trips to Alaska from 1986 thru 2003. |
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teej Samba Member
Joined: November 26, 2010 Posts: 897 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:14 am Post subject: Re: Real time help in Kalispell |
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Great amount of info folks, thanks!
So we are underway again, just with intermittent cell coverage. Modified our itinerary a bit to be less remote, and campsite and parking selection now includes option to roll start. But the issue has not occurred again, and we have shut down and re started about 6 times now.
I will heed the good advice here and practice some of the techniques discussed!
Hitting anything with a hammer to make it work is pretty ridiculous hence my reference to Fonzi. For those who did not grow up watching Happy Days it was a TV show set in the 50s and Fonzi was a “cool guy” character who would hit a reluctant juke box to get it to play, this happened every other episode it seemed.
Thanks again, and it looks like a starter project is in my future.
And Little Miss Sunshine is a great funny movie, thanks for the humor! _________________ 1986+ Wolfsburg Weekender Pop-Top 2.3 WBX Manual Trans |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9605 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:33 am Post subject: Re: Real time help in Kalispell |
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teej wrote: |
Fonzi was a “cool guy” character who would hit a reluctant juke box to get it to play |
Funny how it was a highlight of an episode.👍🏽
Not just hitting, there was body English.
If your Vanagon is going to respond to this, consider it a rare teachable moment.
Gotta wonder what percentage of the worldwide whacks on VW starters over the decades were just wiggling the #30 spade terminal.
Agreed it’s way more fun than cleaning/confirming the only accessible (one of the five series) ground path connections. 👍🏽👍🏽 _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50338
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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:29 pm Post subject: Re: Real time help in Kalispell |
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AndyBees wrote: |
Lastly, every owner of a vintage VW needs to learn how to kick start ...... practice the procedure in case you ever need to do it ... in my opinion, 3rd gear works best, especially if not much of a hill or if people are pushing the vehicle on flat ground. |
I don't think you have to go any faster to get a start in third gear than to get one in second gear. In second gear you are apt to lose a bit of you momentum by wheel slippage especially if you are not on pavement, while in third the engine starts turning much easier.
As for the solenoids having grease, for the ones that you can easily take the solenoid apart they typically have dried up grease in them that one can replace with Super Lube or other silicone based lube. For the ones that take desoldering to get apart then cleaning them with brake cleaner followed by lubing them with a decent spray or liquid lube works.
I wish I remembered what I used back in circa 1992 when I first had a problem with the solenoid sticking on my T4 1800. I lubed it then and then intentionally didn't lube it again just to see how long the lube would last. It made it until last year before it stuck again, this would put in the 300K mile range. Note that the starter did get the bushes change preemptively every 100K miles or so over that time period and the bushing got lubed. |
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AndyBees Samba Member
Joined: January 31, 2008 Posts: 2329 Location: Southeast Kentucky
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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:44 pm Post subject: Re: Real time help in Kalispell |
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Well, I've owned a number of beetles, 1960, 1966, 1969, 1973 and 1976 and have kick-started everyone of them at one time or another, especially those first two with the 6 volt systems. Third gear always worked fine, particularly if the vehicle is moving slowly. If the vehicle is moving too slow when using 2nd gear, the engine can actually stop the vehicle in it's tracks.
I've shared this story previously, but would like to share it again.
My wife and I pulled into a slot at the local Root Beer Stand ... about 1973. We were in our nice 1960 Ragtop Beetle (sarcasm). While sitting there a dude rolled in beside us on his Harley decked out in all the leather, etc., sporting a big beard and nice set of shades. Well, when we finished our Root Beer and hot dog, the Beetle Starter would only click .. after several clicks, the dude on the Harley ask, will it kick start? I said sure, my wife exited the Beetle to help push, he said, mam, get back in the car, I can push it ....... he did and I kick started on first try ..... That was only one of several times I had to kick-start that ol' Beetle ...
Nope! I've never opened a starter solenoid to find grease, dried or otherwise in it. And, I've opened a lot from Chevys to VWs. _________________ '84 Vanagon Tin-top, ALH TDI. 1989 Tin-top
1983 Air-cool, 225k miles, 180k miles mine. Seven trips to Alaska from 1986 thru 2003.
Last edited by AndyBees on Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:32 am; edited 1 time in total |
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82westyrabbit Samba Member
Joined: March 02, 2015 Posts: 969 Location: Ma
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Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:17 am Post subject: Re: Real time help in Kalispell |
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Because we have turned this into a thread on bump starting. In the early 90s there was a time when it was hard to get diesel van starters. I ran with a intermittent starter for years. I was careful where I parked it. Any slight down hill I would just get in it would start rolling I would let out the clutch and off I would go. I had my manager at the time ride with me for a week and didn’t realize the stater didn’t work. Of course now with the internet we can find just about any part we need. After two or three junk rebuilt starters I installed a TDI starter with a starter adapter and a relay system. Now it just starts every time. Like everyone before me has said start by cleaning the connection on the starter. Roll start it to finish your trip if necessary. I don’t like playing with the starter when I am under the van myself. Enjoy the trip. John |
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teej Samba Member
Joined: November 26, 2010 Posts: 897 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:01 pm Post subject: Re: Real time help in Kalispell - starter issue |
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Update: I edited the thread title for future searchers.
After a couple days, the issue did re-occur twice: once first thing in the morning (engine cold), and once in front of our house while shuttling vehicles to park it right when we got home (engine hot).
I will do a little more checking and testing but have ordered Karl's adapter and he recommended the SR0425N starter, $130 no core from Rock Auto.
Question: I am still curious why it appeared that wire #50 was not getting voltage while operating ignition switch. I think I probably just didn't have my test leads on it well, so will retest. Bentley says to disconnect terminal 1 on the coil when doing this test. Is this necessary and why? (I didn't when testing on the road when the problem first occured)
Edit: measurement error is the answer. In the comfort of my own driveway I tested more accurately, 12.63v at #30 connection, 12.42v at #50 wire while operating ignition switch. I also noticed some nasty corrosion on the tiny braided wire on the solenoid. New starter arrives Friday.
_________________ 1986+ Wolfsburg Weekender Pop-Top 2.3 WBX Manual Trans
Last edited by teej on Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:52 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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danfromsyr Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004 Posts: 15144 Location: Syracuse, NY
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Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:15 pm Post subject: Re: Real time help in Kalispell - starter issue |
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when a test light won't help because you can't be in 2 places at once.
I tend to use a test buzzer.
the early vans and VWs older than 1984 had a simple 2 pole 'relay' Buzzer for the open door alert.
you hook one post to the expected +12v power
and the other to a GDN. a length of wire with some alligator clamps helps make it easy.
like a test light it won't tell you if there's sufficient ampacity in the supply side.
just that there is continuity in the supply side.. ie there's noise there's power.
when I did a diy hack diesel install, I used one of these on the glowplugs in lieu of the dash glow light.
none the less it's a handy item to keep for diagnostic testing.
_________________
Abscate wrote: |
These are the reasons we have words like “wanker” |
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teej Samba Member
Joined: November 26, 2010 Posts: 897 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2021 4:31 pm Post subject: Re: Real time help in Kalispell - starter issue |
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I think this can be declared solved. WestyVentures adapter, new starter, and new connector to #50. When adding the new connector I also discovered a nick in the insulation of the OE wire which allowed some corrosion to progress, I ended up cutting it back about 5" and got to some better wire.
For good measure I replaced the ground strap at the transmission (again, I did this already in 2010 or 11 but a decade goes by remarkably fast it seems) and added a local ground to the upper starter bolt. _________________ 1986+ Wolfsburg Weekender Pop-Top 2.3 WBX Manual Trans |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50338
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Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2021 5:40 pm Post subject: Re: Real time help in Kalispell - starter issue |
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teej wrote: |
I also noticed some nasty corrosion on the tiny braided wire on the solenoid. New starter arrives Friday.
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That tiny braided wire as you call it carries the full starting amperage. If it is bad nothing is apt to happen when you turn the key. Your starter looks like something that spent its life in the rust belt. |
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teej Samba Member
Joined: November 26, 2010 Posts: 897 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2021 5:42 pm Post subject: Re: Real time help in Kalispell - starter issue |
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Wildthings wrote: |
teej wrote: |
I also noticed some nasty corrosion on the tiny braided wire on the solenoid. New starter arrives Friday.
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That tiny braided wire as you call it carries the full starting amperage. If it is bad nothing is apt to happen when you turn the key. Your starter looks like something that spent its life in the rust belt. |
Agree, and I should have phrased it as "short braided wire". The starter is one of the few things I had not touched on this van during my ownership, until now.
Maybe testament to the durability of the OE components, once I had the crusty mess on the bench it responded sharp and fast when 12v applied. _________________ 1986+ Wolfsburg Weekender Pop-Top 2.3 WBX Manual Trans |
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Paulbeard Samba Member
Joined: July 10, 2015 Posts: 2604 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 11:12 pm Post subject: Re: Real time help in Kalispell |
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teej wrote: |
Hey folks I just got it started. I tried the Fonzi method of hitting the starter 4-5 times with a mini sledge. I have never actually tried that before. Anyway next attempt it turned over. It has also been cooling down for a couple hours while we worked on it. Is this a common starter failure mode—no start hot? And what does hitting do? |
Be careful about using percussive maintenance tools, as above: note the warning label here…
I bump started mine today, a great trick to know. Had a no-start in Ellensburg (after having been in Kalispell the day before) and some champion helped me push up a slight incline. That was all it took. I have only ever used 1st gear but the main thing is the timing. _________________ Currently -> Frida: 87 Tizian Red (mostly) Vanagon GL Westfalia w/ 2.0L ABA conversion
Formerly -> Steward of a 73 Super Beetle (Beater) and 67 Beetle 1300 (Little Max) both names by POs
— dhaavers |
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4Gears4Tires Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2018 Posts: 3028 Location: MD
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Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2021 8:21 am Post subject: Re: Real time help in Kalispell - starter issue - SOLVED |
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If the incline doesn't seem to be enough or the run out isn't enough, you can bump start and use the key at the same time. This requires good timing but it can be just the trick you need to start in some place like a gas station where there isn't a whole lot of space. _________________ '87 Syncro
Ferric Oxyhydroxide Superleggera Edition |
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