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RWK Samba Member
Joined: June 24, 2009 Posts: 1337 Location: S.W. MI
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Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:20 am Post subject: Righting some wrongs, 71 T1 bus engine. |
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Repairing some previous mechanics miss-steps. Have a 1776 that is overheating, backfiring, ect.
Need some additional input;
Details/problems are; 90.5s, CB O44 heads 40x35, Empi 34 EPCs on T3 manifolds, stock exhaust/heat (bug style), clone 009, stock cam? (approx .315 lift at valve) no oil filter, deep sump, missing front engine tin, flaps/t stat, usual holes and gaps in tin, missing oil cooler foam/seals, hoover bit ect., point set pad wore down, (non Bosch), no lobe lube, NGK D8EA plugs.
Obviously not a great combo of parts!
My plan is stock size valve heads, MFCs 040s, ACs L3 or equivalent.
Split case and check, drill and tap for berg full flow kit, re deck if necessary
Fix all tin and cooling issues, correct plugs, points ect.
Customer wants to retain 34EPCs and stock heat and exhaust, spending money on more important items.
Knowing nothing about the 34 EPCs, I'm looking for some advice on jetting and different manifolds, the T3's seem to cause carbs to interfere with shroud, so plan to get aftermarket one's, I see they have both std. and tall style for the 34s. Also possibly diff. or better linkage.
Also any input on a good dist. that would be compatible with the carbs, they do have vac ports on both carbs. Thinking rebuilt 034?
Suggested going back to a stock 34 PICT carb., but would involve more money, and air cleaner mount is hacked off also.
Thanks _________________ 73 Type 181
63 Type 113
63 Type 261- 428 071
62 Type 241-378 025 178 530 |
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FarmerBill Samba Member
Joined: July 25, 2017 Posts: 762 Location: New England
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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:51 am Post subject: Re: Righting some wrongs, 71 T1 bus engine. |
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Do you still have the vacuum line for the brake booster hooked up? I ask, because having owned 3 1971 busses, I know that long length of tubing can be the source of frustrating vacuum leaks. |
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Alstrup Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007 Posts: 7182 Location: Videbaek Denmark
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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 5:22 am Post subject: Re: Righting some wrongs, 71 T1 bus engine. |
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Yeah, once again big valves and stock exhaust When will people learn.
So youre spot on. Heads need to go, - AND stock muffler needs to go! End of story. (OR he/you can gut the stock muffler)
Scat sells tall manifolds for the ICT/EPC carbs. The flimsy Empi linkage can be cut down and resized for tall manifolds. I have done that a few times. That along with bearings at the hex bar actually improves the set up signififantly, to the point of being nice.
PS. Get the 20 mm manifold extensions while you are at it.
Check the E tubes
If the stock cam has to stay, so be it, but I would recommend the 2280. Even the engle W90 would be a step in the right direction.
A rebuilt 034 would be a good thing.
Vacum from one carb will work, but the signal does get smoother with a signal from both carbs.
Heads. Buy a set of AA500 from Brian e, with a proper valve job instead of something coincidential out of the box. _________________ https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993 |
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RWK Samba Member
Joined: June 24, 2009 Posts: 1337 Location: S.W. MI
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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:15 am Post subject: Re: Righting some wrongs, 71 T1 bus engine. |
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Thanks for the reply,
20mm extensions? you mean the insulators for the carb. base?
e tubes= emulsion tubes?
yea the carbs need to be gone thru, 1,2 were rich,(breather tube into 1-2 carb contributing) 3,4 lean despite the wrong plugs.
stock bus muffler/tail pipe any better then bug style? given the displacement? don't think gutting muffler would be an option, maybe tail pipes, heater boxes and muffler new 100 miles ago, showing signs of overheat.
_________________ 73 Type 181
63 Type 113
63 Type 261- 428 071
62 Type 241-378 025 178 530 |
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Alstrup Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007 Posts: 7182 Location: Videbaek Denmark
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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:25 am Post subject: Re: Righting some wrongs, 71 T1 bus engine. |
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Ohhhyearh, that engine has been through H***
Why is there a bug muffler on a bus?
A gutted bus muffler can easily support about 90 hp if done right. We do that every once in a while when it has to look as stock as possible. A gutted bug muffler can support 100 without too much trouble and over 120 if you go ballistic. (But then there is not much stock muffler left apart from the shell)
Since it has been that hot it has most likely also spat a lot of oil into the air cleaner. Another reason to why I prefer some sort of breather box before the air cleaner. _________________ https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993 |
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[email protected] Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2002 Posts: 4394 Location: Brew City
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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:14 am Post subject: Re: Righting some wrongs, 71 T1 bus engine. |
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RWK wrote: |
Repairing some previous mechanics miss-steps. Have a 1776 that is overheating, backfiring, ect.
Need some additional input;
Details/problems are; 90.5s, CB O44 heads 40x35, Empi 34 EPCs on T3 manifolds, stock exhaust/heat (bug style), clone 009, stock cam? (approx .315 lift at valve) no oil filter, deep sump, missing front engine tin, flaps/t stat, usual holes and gaps in tin, missing oil cooler foam/seals, hoover bit ect., point set pad wore down, (non Bosch), no lobe lube, NGK D8EA plugs.
Obviously not a great combo of parts!
My plan is stock size valve heads, MFCs 040s, ACs L3 or equivalent.
Split case and check, drill and tap for berg full flow kit, re deck if necessary
Fix all tin and cooling issues, correct plugs, points ect.
Customer wants to retain 34EPCs and stock heat and exhaust, spending money on more important items.
Knowing nothing about the 34 EPCs, I'm looking for some advice on jetting and different manifolds, the T3's seem to cause carbs to interfere with shroud, so plan to get aftermarket one's, I see they have both std. and tall style for the 34s. Also possibly diff. or better linkage.
Also any input on a good dist. that would be compatible with the carbs, they do have vac ports on both carbs. Thinking rebuilt 034?
Suggested going back to a stock 34 PICT carb., but would involve more money, and air cleaner mount is hacked off also.
Thanks |
Actually my 041's would be perfect with the dual carbs and stock sized exhaust valves. Plus, since no casting cools as well as mine, they are perfect for a bus. _________________ Please "LIKE" us on facebook to see what we are working on.
https://www.facebook.com/mofoco?ref=ts&fref=ts
www.mofoco.com
Cylinder Head Reference Sheet |
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RWK Samba Member
Joined: June 24, 2009 Posts: 1337 Location: S.W. MI
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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:48 am Post subject: Re: Righting some wrongs, 71 T1 bus engine. |
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Roy, heads in stock? _________________ 73 Type 181
63 Type 113
63 Type 261- 428 071
62 Type 241-378 025 178 530 |
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RWK Samba Member
Joined: June 24, 2009 Posts: 1337 Location: S.W. MI
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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:19 pm Post subject: Re: Righting some wrongs, 71 T1 bus engine. |
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Farmer Bill, thanks for input, have to solve the over heating first, then on to tuning.
But yes maybe problems with the vac tube also, was hooked up properly with check valve and good brass T, have not traced it to the front yet, newer SAE hose on T3 manifolds tho. Many issues with the whole affair. _________________ 73 Type 181
63 Type 113
63 Type 261- 428 071
62 Type 241-378 025 178 530 |
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FarmerBill Samba Member
Joined: July 25, 2017 Posts: 762 Location: New England
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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:26 pm Post subject: Re: Righting some wrongs, 71 T1 bus engine. |
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RWK wrote: |
Farmer Bill, thanks for input, have to solve the over heating first, then on to tuning.
But yes maybe problems with the vac tube also, was hooked up properly with check valve and good brass T, have not traced it to the front yet, newer SAE hose on T3 manifolds tho. Many issues with the whole affair. |
What I'm saying is that a vacuum leak in the booster line could be causing some of your over heating and the lean conditions on your 3/4 side. Might want to plug it for now, just to eliminate it as a potential problem. |
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RWK Samba Member
Joined: June 24, 2009 Posts: 1337 Location: S.W. MI
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Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:05 am Post subject: Re: Righting some wrongs, 71 T1 bus engine. |
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Well, guess we are going to keep big valve heads, owner wants to try it with cooling system repairs, here is #3 chamber, is this what you get for valve jobs on new heads? they have couple hundred miles most, ex. land about .1-.110 intake around .06 with back cut, ex. look like a single angle valve job!
Limited air flow thru heads also not helping!
_________________ 73 Type 181
63 Type 113
63 Type 261- 428 071
62 Type 241-378 025 178 530 |
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Ohio Tom Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2006 Posts: 1657 Location: Marshallville Ohio
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Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:32 am Post subject: Re: Righting some wrongs, 71 T1 bus engine. |
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those clone 009's are horrible.
I would venture to say that it is the source of may issues.
The overheating could be from running timing too retarded.
Most "clones" I have seen have way too much advance in them, and they just keep advancing as you rev up.
So during normal operation, it's not near enough advance. That will turn the pipes blue...
Get a good distributor and be done with Chinese crap 009's.
I had a customer bring a motor recently with one. Timing was all over the place. Turns out the thing was falling apart inside. Brand new and falling apart. Timing was jumping around 20+deg.
They just don't give a shit if it works or not. |
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Alstrup Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007 Posts: 7182 Location: Videbaek Denmark
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Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:13 pm Post subject: Re: Righting some wrongs, 71 T1 bus engine. |
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RWK wrote: |
Well, guess we are going to keep big valve heads, owner wants to try it with cooling system repairs, here is #3 chamber, is this what you get for valve jobs on new heads? they have couple hundred miles most, ex. land about .1-.110 intake around .06 with back cut, ex. look like a single angle valve job!
Limited air flow thru heads also not helping!
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Opinions vary. But in my book large valve heads, even with a stock cam, stock heaterboxes and esapecially a stock muffler is an absolutely NO GO! Especially not in a bus. That is just plain stupid. A set of 041īs could/would work, but still it needs a better (or freer flowing) muffler. Sometimes I outline the decissions in front of the custemer so hard that it is my way or the highway. I refuse to assemble a combo that I know will work like crap. If the right way is more money, so be it. Not my problem the customer has bought a pile of crap. That is sometimes the only way to make people understand what is going on.
The clone 009 is naturally not helping for the reasons Tom pointed out. I never use them for these reasons. _________________ https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993 |
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RWK Samba Member
Joined: June 24, 2009 Posts: 1337 Location: S.W. MI
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Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:19 pm Post subject: Re: Righting some wrongs, 71 T1 bus engine. |
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Cust. bringing an electronic dist. can't wait,.. prolly a pertronix, also have to get the 34EPCs sorted out, jetting and needs taller manifolds previous mech. put T3 short ones on it, any advice on jets?, never worked on these 34EPCS, I'm not much of a tuner with all of this aftermarket stuff.
More then likely it will be back for my recommendations, and cust is ok with that, going to put CHT gage on it, maybe it will go more then 15 miles with cooling tin fixes, that was max before overheat, previously.
May get it running with 009 or SVDA I have good German ones in both.
Thanks
_________________ 73 Type 181
63 Type 113
63 Type 261- 428 071
62 Type 241-378 025 178 530 |
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RWK Samba Member
Joined: June 24, 2009 Posts: 1337 Location: S.W. MI
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Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:28 pm Post subject: Re: Righting some wrongs, 71 T1 bus engine. |
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Did a quick check of chamber vol. and deck it's set up just about 8-1
one head is 53cc other 54 ish. of course the 53 head was 3-4 side, think I'll switch them around, contemplating putting a shim under cyl. drop C.R. some more. _________________ 73 Type 181
63 Type 113
63 Type 261- 428 071
62 Type 241-378 025 178 530 |
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madmike Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2005 Posts: 5291 Location: Atlanta,Michigan
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Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 4:24 am Post subject: Re: Righting some wrongs, 71 T1 bus engine. |
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My friend kids sand rail was overheating ,, I told him switch back to points ,, it was the 'pertronix' _________________ 'Black Ice'Drag Buggy 'Turbo'
Rail Buggy 1915 turbo
76 Drag/Street bug 2180cc 'Turbo' 11:85 @113 mph"If I go any faster I'll burn up the Hamster" ,gets 28 mpg. also 10/09/22 11.90 @115 mph
"If I'm ever on Life Support,UNPLUG Me, Then Plug me back In see if that Works" |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12632 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 4:34 am Post subject: Re: Righting some wrongs, 71 T1 bus engine. |
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RWK wrote: |
Did a quick check of chamber vol. and deck it's set up just about 8-1
one head is 53cc other 54 ish. of course the 53 head was 3-4 side, think I'll switch them around, contemplating putting a shim under cyl. drop C.R. some more. |
Isn't low compression one of the reasons the Bus engine runs hot? _________________ We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
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Alstrup Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007 Posts: 7182 Location: Videbaek Denmark
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Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:27 am Post subject: Re: Righting some wrongs, 71 T1 bus engine. |
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RWK wrote: |
Cust. bringing an electronic dist. can't wait,.. prolly a pertronix, also have to get the 34EPCs sorted out, jetting and needs taller manifolds previous mech. put T3 short ones on it, any advice on jets?, never worked on these 34EPCS, I'm not much of a tuner with all of this aftermarket stuff.
More then likely it will be back for my recommendations, and cust is ok with that, going to put CHT gage on it, maybe it will go more then 15 miles with cooling tin fixes, that was max before overheat, previously.
May get it running with 009 or SVDA I have good German ones in both.
Thanks
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The kit comes with short manifolds regarding type 1 & 3. only the linkage and air cleaners are different.
Definitely try to get it working with an SVDA. But those heads still need to go, or you wohnt get the temperature down to an acceptable level. _________________ https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993 |
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RWK Samba Member
Joined: June 24, 2009 Posts: 1337 Location: S.W. MI
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Posted: Sat Jun 26, 2021 7:52 am Post subject: Re: Righting some wrongs, 71 T1 bus engine. |
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Going to put on a CHT, Current CR is 8-1 but has stock cam, may shim cyl. to drop CR a little, biggest prob as Alstrup says, is big valve heads and stock exhaust, when back together going to run on stand to prove out, may eliminate another R&R. _________________ 73 Type 181
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RWK Samba Member
Joined: June 24, 2009 Posts: 1337 Location: S.W. MI
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Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:15 am Post subject: Re: Righting some wrongs, 71 T1 bus engine. |
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Ok, now on to the EMPI EPC experience, both floats are leaking, new manifolds (Redline) are not fitting any better then previous T3 iron ones, using stock dog house shroud, now a FI shroud.
Watched some u tubes, what a joke, both I watched to see how manifolds/carbs fit on those installs, lol both were with aftermarket shrouds.
Anyone install these carbs with stock fan shrouds? every thing fits, but just barely, and have hammered on the shroud, and with vac/balance tube fittings just about impossible to get to plugs on 2 cylinders.
Plan to make an insulator gasket for the head to manifold maybe 3/16 thick, that pushes manifold out a bit, and keeps the bus heat out of carb, also drill new vac port up by carb mounting surface, not really enough meat to tap so planning just a press fit tube with some JB maybe,
Anyone else have these issues? are there any different manifolds out there ?, tried a stock tall cast iron (040129526) one also but it doesn't offset out far enough, fear the aftermarket "tall" ones would be the same, help or tricks welcome.
Floats,
New manifolds,EPC carbs, and stock DH shroud.
Previous stock T3 manifolds, DH shroud
_________________ 73 Type 181
63 Type 113
63 Type 261- 428 071
62 Type 241-378 025 178 530 |
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FreeBug Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2012 Posts: 4278 Location: deepest, darkest Switzerland
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Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:42 am Post subject: Re: Righting some wrongs, 71 T1 bus engine. |
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oprn wrote: |
RWK wrote: |
Did a quick check of chamber vol. and deck it's set up just about 8-1
one head is 53cc other 54 ish. of course the 53 head was 3-4 side, think I'll switch them around, contemplating putting a shim under cyl. drop C.R. some more. |
Isn't low compression one of the reasons the Bus engine runs hot? |
Lower compression should mean less heat, all things being equal. It's the squish that does the magic to keep temps down. Speed of combustion. |
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