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1959 Restored 23-Window feedback
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BUCIOBATISTI
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:27 pm    Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback Reply with quote

PeteSC wrote:
EverettB wrote:
PeteSC wrote:
FarmerBill wrote:
Why distress the vin plate? Was it an attempt to disguise that it's a repop?


My first thought was that it was an original, crusty VIN plate that had numbers re-stamped right over the old. They appear too crisp given how crusty/pitted the rest of the plate is.


This was my thought too - original that was restamped.
It is weird that they didn't clean it up much since you can remove that surface rust with various chemicals or lemon juice or soda blasting


The original VIN stamping is usually so fine that with that much pitting and surface rust the existing numbers were probably near invisible, making it easier to stamp new numbers without giving anything way. I bet cleaning it up would run the risk of exposing parts of the original VIN. On second glance it appears they may even have tried to re-distress the new stamping; the color is off a bit, like more silver than orange/brown, between the VIN numbers compared to the patina on the rest of the plate.


Taking the plate off, flipping it over, and reading it from the backside might be an option, too.

Often times they can be lightly cleaned and the numbers be seen better on the backside than on the rustier frontside.
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rag63
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:46 pm    Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback Reply with quote

This whole thread/story has been interesting to watch unfold. Bravo to all who really know their stuff and put it out there for all of us to learn. Thanks.
Cheers,
Dave
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adriano
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:37 am    Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback Reply with quote

EverettB wrote:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I have tried to find a similar picture of an unrestored 58 bus to compare the welded square tube over the master cylinder support near the gear box shifter support . On my January 64 this tube is not present; may be in the old ones is a normal reinforce.
Does someone find a picture of this detail?

This is a detail of mine:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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Lind
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:57 am    Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback Reply with quote

adriano wrote:
EverettB wrote:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I have tried to find a similar picture of an unrestored 58 bus to compare the welded square tube over the master cylinder support near the gear box shifter support . On my January 64 this tube is not present; may be in the old ones is a normal reinforce.
Does someone find a picture of this detail?

This is a detail of mine:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

That is the E-brake mount for rearward shifter buses.
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Douglas Denlinger
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:19 pm    Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback Reply with quote

May explain why the original lister of the ad here on thesamba, would never respond to numerous requests to view the bus, perform a PPI for a interested client.
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PeteSC
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:25 pm    Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback Reply with quote

I'm still perplexed by the BC, with its 2/59 build date for a 2/58 VIN, and mention of a Chestnut Brown roof. If it's a fake why not also change the "L 73 Chestnut Brown" to "L 472 Beige Grey"?

The thought makes me laugh at the possibility that the outing of this bus is that the BC is not a fake, but rather a mistake by the museum in putting 1959 on it instead of 1958, and that mistake caused the fraudster to attach a pressed bumper, chestnut brown VIN to a blade bumper, beige grey bus.

Had the VIN been attached to a bus that looked like a '58 instead of a '59, would it have raised the same suspicions?
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Erik G
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:43 pm    Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback Reply with quote

Douglas Denlinger wrote:
May explain why the original lister of the ad here on thesamba, would never respond to numerous requests to view the bus, perform a PPI for a interested client.


quite telling
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Lind
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:18 pm    Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback Reply with quote

PeteSC wrote:
I'm still perplexed by the BC, with its 2/59 build date for a 2/58 VIN, and mention of a Chestnut Brown roof. If it's a fake why not also change the "L 73 Chestnut Brown" to "L 472 Beige Grey"?

The thought makes me laugh at the possibility that the outing of this bus is that the BC is not a fake, but rather a mistake by the museum in putting 1959 on it instead of 1958, and that mistake caused the fraudster to attach a pressed bumper, chestnut brown VIN to a blade bumper, beige grey bus.

Had the VIN been attached to a bus that looked like a '58 instead of a '59, would it have raised the same suspicions?

The birth certificate appears to be real, with a mistake on the build date. I have a copy of the birth certificate from 2002, and it has the correct dates.

The builder of the bus didn't properly interpret the birth certificate, and built it like a '59 deluxe rather than the '58 it is. This Bus would have drawn more attention as a '58 walkthrough than a '59 walkthrough.
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Tizian
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:20 am    Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback Reply with quote

Lind wrote:
PeteSC wrote:
I'm still perplexed by the BC, with its 2/59 build date for a 2/58 VIN, and mention of a Chestnut Brown roof. If it's a fake why not also change the "L 73 Chestnut Brown" to "L 472 Beige Grey"?

The thought makes me laugh at the possibility that the outing of this bus is that the BC is not a fake, but rather a mistake by the museum in putting 1959 on it instead of 1958, and that mistake caused the fraudster to attach a pressed bumper, chestnut brown VIN to a blade bumper, beige grey bus.

Had the VIN been attached to a bus that looked like a '58 instead of a '59, would it have raised the same suspicions?

The birth certificate appears to be real, with a mistake on the build date. I have a copy of the birth certificate from 2002, and it has the correct dates.

The builder of the bus didn't properly interpret the birth certificate, and built it like a '59 deluxe rather than the '58 it is. This Bus would have drawn more attention as a '58 walkthrough than a '59 walkthrough.



Why not asking the museum, if they issued this BC like that?
I’ll give it a try. Let’s see what they come up with...
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Tizian
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:05 am    Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback Reply with quote

Just wrote them an email.

Let’s see how the answer looks like...
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Lind
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:49 am    Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback Reply with quote

I would be surprised if the factory were to give any details or response to people who have nothing to do with either bus in this situation.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:26 am    Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback Reply with quote

They already answered - that was fast. They are investigating this. At first sight it seems that there is no such BC. This is the conversation. Hit the translate button if you like. I Xed all the personal information, as this is obligate in the EU:

"Sehr geehrter Herr XXX,

vielen Dank für Ihre Email.

Nach bisheriger Recherche konnte ich unter dem Namen keine Urkunde in unseren Dokumenten finden.

Ich würde meine Kollegin übernächste Woche bitten, nochmal in die Bestellungen 2017 zu gehen, ob zu diesem Zertifikat Bestellung überhaupt eingegangen ist. Das kann ich leider nicht, da sie im Generator nur zwei Jahre gespeichert worden sind.

Beste Grüße

XXX
Stiftung AutoMuseum Volkswagen
Dieselstraße 35
38446 Wolfsburg
Tel. XXX
Fax XXX
e-mail: XXX

Banner_Automuseum_50_Years_of Love_u_Peace_Apr_2021_032

Email_Signatur_Vier Gewinnt_Jan_2021_02



Liebes Automuseum Team,

im Internetforum thesamba.com wird derzeit über eine mögliche Fälschung diskutiert.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=755673&postorder=asc

Hintergrund:

Es wird aktuell ein vermeintliches VW T1 Sondermodell aus 1959 zum Kauf angeboten von dem die Szene überzeugt ist, dass es sich um eine Fälschung handelt.

Es liegt ein Zertifikat vom Musuem vor, dass einen signifikanten Fehler enthält. Die Seriennummer passt nicht zum Baujahr.
Ich stelle mir daher die Frage, ob das Zertifikat echt ist.

Mittlerweile hat sich schon ein Mitglied des Forums gemeldet dem der echte Bus zur Seriennummer gehört. Es handelt sich um einen 1958 Sondermodell. Dieses Mitglied ist auch im Besitz eines Zertifikates, auf dem die Angaben korrekt sind.

Würden Sie freundlicherweise einmal nachprüfen, ob das angehängte Zertifikat echt ist und durch sie ausgestellt wurde und es sich möglicherweise nur um ein Fehler handelt, oder aber sich wohlmöglich um eine Fälschung handelt?

Über Infos dazu würde ich mich sehr freuen.

Viele Grüße und einen angenehmen sonnigen Tag


XXX"
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Erik G
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:04 am    Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback Reply with quote

Quote:
"Dear Mr. XXX,

Thank you very much for your email.

According to previous research, I could not find a certificate under the name in our documents.

I would ask my colleague the week after next to go back to the 2017 orders to see whether an order for this certificate has even been received. Unfortunately, I cannot do that because they have only been stored in the generator for two years.

Best regards

XXX
Volkswagen AutoMuseum Foundation
Dieselstrasse 35
38446 Wolfsburg
Tel. XXX
Fax XXX
e-mail: XXX

Banner_Automuseum_50_Years_of Love_u_Peace_Apr_2021_032

Email_Signature_Four Wins_Jan_2021_02"


google translate
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peecee69
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:17 pm    Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback Reply with quote

I wonder who took over once Ruth retired? I got 6 or 7 BCs while she was at the helm.
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Busstom
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:52 pm    Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback Reply with quote

By and far the best thread to be following on TS right now. It's like an epic mini-series that has you clinging to the TV set, but the entries come much more frequently than the weekly airing of a drama series that is far and few these days. Hollywood's got nothin' on TheSamba right now.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:33 pm    Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback Reply with quote

Seems like sales fraud and misrepresentation as opposed to anything being stolen. Octavio built bus?

I'd pay $50K for it Smile
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Blue Baron
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:14 pm    Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback Reply with quote

Is it wrong to say I still like the bus?

We can't blame the child for the actions of the parents.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:22 am    Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback Reply with quote

small update.

I'm in contact with CEO of Bonhams who auctioned the bus on May 20, 2021.

The dealer who offered it for sale didn't react on my email (what would I have thought?)

Bonhams take this fraud pretty serious and asked me some proof of my bus and certain other information.

I provided on return.

I have plenty of documentation to proove reality of my bus, so i'm not affraid....

I only wonder how this will end, somebody will end up with a bus without a number? or will two people end up one with the front clip and one with the rear ???

I will post more informatiuon when it comes available

Thanks to everybody involved for research and follow up, another proof our VW world is a good place to hang out!
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teahead
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:12 pm    Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback Reply with quote

I'm still perplexed how Ruth from the Museum got the build dates wrong.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:21 pm    Post subject: Re: 1959 Restored 23-Window feedback Reply with quote

Thanks for contacting the auction house Bob.

I know another person contacted the current dealer seller with some information.
They received no reply.

A Bus with a fake VIN # is illegal in the USA but I don't know if the police would take action if they were notified.
I believe the Bus could be impounded from the current owner.
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Last edited by EverettB on Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:48 pm; edited 2 times in total
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