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EverettB Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000 Posts: 69813 Location: Phoenix Metro
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Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:07 am Post subject: ZV/PAU 4R5 distributors - 2 different vacuum cans |
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I've noticed this difference in the past and was curious about input from others.
There are 2 different vacuum cans used on the 'big cap" ZV/PAU 4R5 distributors:
Vacuum cans side by side:
I believe this is early vs. late with early being on the left side here.
The right side version is much more common.
Any thoughts on when/why this was changed?
I believe the reason might have been cosmetic and/efficiency as the one on the left produces a strange curvature in the vacuum hose.
See example photo below.
I don't see any internal differences on how the cans attach, etc.
I also have one of the earlier version of the ZV/PAU 4R5 distributor - the ZV/PAU 4R2 and it has the vacuum can seen on the right side, which may put into question the left being being an earlier version.
Full distributor view with cans:
Brochures are notoriously unreliable as reference pics but I found it difficult to find the one on the left pictured in a number of brochures I tried to reference.
Almost all photos show the one on the right in use, regardless of year.
Here's one of the left-side one pictured in a Bus brochure from 1963:
The engine has the vacuum line with the loop though, which is 1962. _________________ How to Post Photos
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76911 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:27 am Post subject: Re: ZV/PAU 4R5 distributors - 2 different vacuum cans |
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My experience has been they are on 2 different modlez.of the 40hp big cap. _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
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EverettB Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000 Posts: 69813 Location: Phoenix Metro
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Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:34 am Post subject: Re: ZV/PAU 4R5 distributors - 2 different vacuum cans |
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2 different versions makes sense.
Do you think the left side one was really intended for another make/model of vehicle?
This may be why I was not able to find it pictured very easily and they seem to be much more uncommon at VW swap meets.
These 2 have the same tag and I don't see any differences but I may have missed something.
Or the only difference is the vacuum can. _________________ How to Post Photos
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76911 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:01 am Post subject: Re: ZV/PAU 4R5 distributors - 2 different vacuum cans |
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I think the R6 had a different nipple location than the R5. The R6 was typed.
The can could of been swapped over the years. _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
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Frederik Samba Member
Joined: August 18, 2007 Posts: 578 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 3:08 pm Post subject: Re: ZV/PAU 4R5 distributors - 2 different vacuum cans |
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This are the changes as noted in the VW workshop manual:
First change different location of the points, condenser and low current wire. This for the points plate to withstand tilt better. Top old style, lower new style. At the same time they changed from ZV/PAU 4 R2 to ..R5. Note vacuum connection points up on both.
Next change was that the vacuum can changed for ZV/PAU R5 to a new one with a improved membrane material to withstand fuel better. First this new can (spare part number 113 905 271 CH or 113 905 271) was identified by a black paint spot above the vacuum connection but from january 1962 it is only identified by the date stamp (1T and so on). All distributors with the improved vacuum can is identified with a date stamp 11S (from November 1961) and newer. Note now the vacuum connection is more horisontal. My guess is that the reason was to not have fuel dripping staight down the can, but this don't sound like an idea that would work. And it didn't as they finaly did next change..
Next change was that the vacuum hose was changed to a vacuum tube with a coil on it to prevent fuel to come down to the vacuum can from the carb. Note still the "horisontal" connection
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Frederik Samba Member
Joined: August 18, 2007 Posts: 578 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 3:38 pm Post subject: Re: ZV/PAU 4R5 distributors - 2 different vacuum cans |
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EverettB wrote: |
I've noticed this difference in the past and was curious about input from others.
There are 2 different vacuum cans used on the 'big cap" ZV/PAU 4R5 distributors:
Vacuum cans side by side:
I believe this is early vs. late with early being on the left side here.
The right side version is much more common. |
Short answer: early is the one to right, late to the left |
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Frederik Samba Member
Joined: August 18, 2007 Posts: 578 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 3:58 pm Post subject: Re: ZV/PAU 4R5 distributors - 2 different vacuum cans |
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Same changes for type 3
Changes to points plate, old style to the right, new to the left. At the same time they changed from ZV/PAU 4 R 4 to ...R 6 (same vw spare part number)
From chassis number 0001024 engine number 0001573
And a little later the vacuum can changed for the R6 (same changes and same part number as for R5).
From chassis number 0003992 engine number 0005022
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EverettB Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000 Posts: 69813 Location: Phoenix Metro
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Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:10 pm Post subject: Re: ZV/PAU 4R5 distributors - 2 different vacuum cans |
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Frederik wrote: |
EverettB wrote: |
I've noticed this difference in the past and was curious about input from others.
There are 2 different vacuum cans used on the 'big cap" ZV/PAU 4R5 distributors:
Vacuum cans side by side:
I believe this is early vs. late with early being on the left side here.
The right side version is much more common. |
Short answer: early is the one to right, late to the left |
Thank you for tracking down that information in the shop manuals.
It's strange that the left-side piece was the improvement in design as I almost never seen that on used parts at swap meets. I would expect to see it far more often. _________________ How to Post Photos
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EverettB Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000 Posts: 69813 Location: Phoenix Metro
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Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:12 pm Post subject: Re: ZV/PAU 4R5 distributors - 2 different vacuum cans |
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I wonder if they changed back again later?
For instance this 1963 Bus has 8,000 original miles and has what you stated is the "early" distributor can:
My 1963 Squareback has 44K original miles and has the more upright vacuum can too.
Everything is all original.
This is not the best photo but:
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Frederik Samba Member
Joined: August 18, 2007 Posts: 578 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:52 am Post subject: Re: ZV/PAU 4R5 distributors - 2 different vacuum cans |
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They might have changed back, with the coiled or looped vaccum tube the (assumed) reason for the horizontal connection did not have any purpose and the weird angle might not be optimal with a solid tube with short rubber connections. What date stamp do you have on the can and distributor? If they are after 11S, they are the improved version but with the "up" connection.
The above type 1 workshop manual papers are latest updated 2.62 and the type 3 latest update is mid 63 (if I remember correct 8.63). So any changes after that would not be in them. I looked very quick in one of my bosch parts folders for ZV/PAU 4 R2-R6 before leaving for work this morning but is was also printed 62 (same spare part number for the can on all models but R3 that had a different can). I do have some more vw and bosch manuals/parts books I can check later. |
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Big Bill Samba Member
Joined: June 21, 2005 Posts: 1782 Location: Santa Rosa, Ca
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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:25 am Post subject: Re: ZV/PAU 4R5 distributors - 2 different vacuum cans |
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Maybe the can with the almost 9 o clock position nipple was to make it a little easier the get the Dist. cap off?? |
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EverettB Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000 Posts: 69813 Location: Phoenix Metro
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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:01 am Post subject: Re: ZV/PAU 4R5 distributors - 2 different vacuum cans |
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Frederik wrote: |
They might have changed back, with the coiled or looped vaccum tube the (assumed) reason for the horizontal connection did not have any purpose and the weird angle might not be optimal with a solid tube with short rubber connections. What date stamp do you have on the can and distributor? If they are after 11S, they are the improved version but with the "up" connection. |
I can't find a date code.
I have a 4R2 distributor, it looks like the date code on that looks like 710.
It is located near the right side mounting point of the vacuum can.
Should the 4R5 date codes be in the same place? They appear to be blank.
4R2:
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Frederik Samba Member
Joined: August 18, 2007 Posts: 578 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:28 am Post subject: Re: ZV/PAU 4R5 distributors - 2 different vacuum cans |
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Yes it should be in the same place, the distributor date code should be under the low voltage connection. But your R2 looks to have a october 1967 date coded vacuum can/ replacement (as all the changes point out they were prone to fail due to fuel entering them, it might not be that odd) so it looks like later went back to the connection pointing up?
The date code for the can is where the right arrow points (left arrow is the black paint spot on early improved vacuum can). The text do say "From January 1962 the paint dot was discontinued and replaced by a manufacturing date code, 1 T, 2 T, 3 T and so on. All distributors with a improved vacuum can is identified from november 1961 with a manufacturing date code 11 S, 12 S, 1 T on the distributor housing under the low voltage connection." So one might also think that the cans before 1T didn't have a date stamp? But the whole distributor was identified with the date stamp.
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EverettB Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000 Posts: 69813 Location: Phoenix Metro
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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:24 pm Post subject: Re: ZV/PAU 4R5 distributors - 2 different vacuum cans |
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Thank you.
There appears to be no date codes on the 2 vacuum cans installed on these distributors.
Here is the right side areas after I cleaned it up:
The distributor with the vacuum advance outlet around 9 o'clock:
The distributor with the vacuum advance outlet around 11 o'clock:
I don't see any markings elsewhere on the vacuum can either. _________________ How to Post Photos
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tasb The Distributor Distributor
Joined: April 27, 2002 Posts: 6371 Location: Pentwater, Michigan
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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:31 pm Post subject: Re: ZV/PAU 4R5 distributors - 2 different vacuum cans |
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This topic has come up before. I remember theorizing that it might have been as simple as an assembly line quirk, but in after thought I doubt that that much of a variation wouldn't have come to the attention of the assembly line inspectors.
I usually remove the canisters on my cores but because there isn't a high demand on the big cap 40 horse distributors I have a fair number with canisters still installed.
I have 28 big cap distributors with canisters still attached. Of those six have the canister pipe at what I will call 9:30. The rest were sporting canisters with vacuum pipes at 11 o'clock. of the six, two are R 2's and the other four are R 5's. one of these has a date stamp of 2T( February 1962) on it.
I have 15 loose big cap canisters. Three of them have the pipe at 9:30. none of them have a date stamp on them. _________________ Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018
1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc
1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse |
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tasb The Distributor Distributor
Joined: April 27, 2002 Posts: 6371 Location: Pentwater, Michigan
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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:05 pm Post subject: Re: ZV/PAU 4R5 distributors - 2 different vacuum cans |
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In a related curiosity:
There were two 40 hp vacuum advance distributors that saw brief service before the R 2/4/5/6.
first a ZV/JU 4 R 1 which was installed on 1959 36 hp Ghia's only. Because it was small bodied with no room for a condenser, it was installed on the outside of the housing. The vacuum canister has a unique shape/design It used a screw in vacuum line that was short in steel with flexible line going up to the carburetor. Interesting that even though this R 1 is small bodied it still had two mounting screws on one side just like the later canisters.
Note: on both of these the canister port is at 11 o'clock.
_________________ Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018
1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc
1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse |
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Frederik Samba Member
Joined: August 18, 2007 Posts: 578 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 3:27 am Post subject: Re: ZV/PAU 4R5 distributors - 2 different vacuum cans |
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ZV/JUR 4 R 1 was also installed in about 5000 type 1 (sedan and cabriolet) from february 24 1959
Advance curve for it:
The vacuum can on it was ZVSV 1 Z 2
Karmann ghia 30hk (=36hp) distributors
The early ZV/PAU also used a screw in vacuum line/flex line
Karmann ghia 34hk (=40hp) distributor used 61-62
For all ZV/PAU the replacement vacuum can was ZVSV 1 Z 3 (..R3 ZVSV 1 Z 4) |
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heimlich VWNOS.com
Joined: November 20, 2016 Posts: 6597 Location: Houston, Texas
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Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 3:51 pm Post subject: Re: ZV/PAU 4R5 distributors - 2 different vacuum cans |
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Frederik, wonderful documentation you have there.
Here are the points plates side by side.
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