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dgsaz Samba Member
Joined: November 04, 2008 Posts: 577 Location: Phoenix / San Diego
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Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:58 am Post subject: Displacement / HP |
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If one was to take an H case 1500, rated at 53 HP, and simply increase the displacement to 1776. Nothing else, all stock, just displacement increase.
What would the HP increase be?
Thanks,
dgsaz |
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Alstrup Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007 Posts: 7164 Location: Videbaek Denmark
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Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:21 pm Post subject: Re: Displacement / HP |
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First. The 53 hp rating was the old pre 1971 SAE measurement, which in real life was 45 hp Din. @ 4000.
If you do nothing else, and keep the stock CR the power would increase to approx 55 hp. Din @ 3800. _________________ https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993 |
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mark tucker Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009 Posts: 23937 Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:16 pm Post subject: Re: Displacement / HP |
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10 hp can be a lot. and thats at lower rpm. |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76706 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:21 pm Post subject: Re: Displacement / HP |
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mark tucker wrote: |
10 hp can be a lot. and thats at lower rpm. |
That's a 18.9% increase.
MATH _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
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dgsaz Samba Member
Joined: November 04, 2008 Posts: 577 Location: Phoenix / San Diego
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Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:41 pm Post subject: Re: Displacement / HP |
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Alstrup wrote: |
First. The 53 hp rating was the old pre 1971 SAE measurement, which in real life was 45 hp Din. @ 4000.
If you do nothing else, and keep the stock CR the power would increase to approx 55 hp. Din @ 3800. |
What method did VW use to determine HP.
How, what compares today and gives similar values in dyno reads. I hear people talking about "stock" 1776 dyno readings from 53 to 70.
Are there corrections to the readings depending on the dyno platform?
Which reading is "more right". Thanks.
dgsaz |
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dgsaz Samba Member
Joined: November 04, 2008 Posts: 577 Location: Phoenix / San Diego
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Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:54 pm Post subject: Re: Displacement / HP |
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To rephrase my question with out the babbling:
Is there a correction factor used when comparing the data from a chassis dyno and an engine dyno?
dgsaz |
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Alstrup Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007 Posts: 7164 Location: Videbaek Denmark
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Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:43 pm Post subject: Re: Displacement / HP |
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VW used and use the Din (Deutsche Industrie Norm)
There are several different calibrations. In genaral:
The old SAE "60"
The post 71 (IIRC) SAE 77) Which is the same as the SAE 1349J I believe. -EDIT 21/06/23. It is the same, only the temperature correction varies a little.
Din.
BHP
EEC
There are small variations as to how it is calculated
For instance. SAE 1349J, BHP and EEC is the same within a few 3rd position digits.
100 hp Din. equals 98,631997 BHP/ EEC & SAE 1349J hp.
The old SAE60 calibration was measured without alternator/generator, Cooling/waterpump. Engine only.
The very correct way to test is actually to measure in KW and then you can convert to the calibration you use.
Most chassis dyno´s in the US are not set up to measure drivetrain loss, so there you will see the power that comes to the ground, which is a good indication on how fast you can get forward. The problem with these measurements is that there are so many variables which can have an influence on the result. Tyres, tyre pressure, tyre height, aligment, transmission losses, trans mission oil, - and oil temperature plus a couple more. The first problem is, that if you are strapped on the rolls and do multiple runs more or less on top of each other you will see an increase in hp WITHOUT DOING ANYTHING TO THE ENGINE. The reason is that the oil in the transmission heats up and thereby reduces friction. This is especially an issue if you have a high viscosity oil in the transmission. A racing transmission oil as used in say Formuling Ford, and varius serius track racing set ups are much thinner, almost always synthetic nowadays and on top of that prepped with friction reducers. This makes the transmission losses much less and more linear compared to temperature
When you use a chassis dyno that is set up for measuring drivetrain loss you get the power that is sent through the mainshaft, nothing more, nothing less. This number should equal the number you would see on an engine dyno if and when both are properly calibrated. It is almost impossible to get 100% repeatability between two units, but +/- 1,2% ought to be possible.
If a chassis dyno is used and you have to guesstimate the flywheel hp the average multiplication factor is +17% with a VW transmission. BUT, as menthioned above, this is very inaccurate, because you can have down to about 12% loss in good set ups and over 25% in bad set ups.
All the menthioned readings can be right. You just need to know which calibration is used. That is a lot to be aware of for the leighman I know, but that´s how its done.
Hope this helps
mark tucker wrote: |
10 hp can be a lot. and thats at lower rpm. |
Agreed.
If such a modification is made to a stock 1500 it will basicly get the same behaviure as a 1200 engine. Almost max torque at about 2200 rpm and all over by 4000. Some people like that others don´t. _________________ https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993
Last edited by Alstrup on Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:08 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Ohio Tom Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2006 Posts: 1657 Location: Marshallville Ohio
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Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:03 am Post subject: Re: Displacement / HP |
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I worked on a 1776cc stocker recently.
Moving the main jet to 135 made a HUGE difference in power.
Also, idle jet wanted to be a 65.
Just an FYI. |
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mark tucker Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009 Posts: 23937 Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:17 am Post subject: Re: Displacement / HP |
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Glenn wrote: |
mark tucker wrote: |
10 hp can be a lot. and thats at lower rpm. |
That's a 18.9% increase.
MATH |
wow... when the clueless have nothing to say they just have to get something in. even if it's nothing. |
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Ohio Tom Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2006 Posts: 1657 Location: Marshallville Ohio
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Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:25 am Post subject: Re: Displacement / HP |
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mark tucker wrote: |
Glenn wrote: |
mark tucker wrote: |
10 hp can be a lot. and thats at lower rpm. |
That's a 18.9% increase.
MATH |
wow... when the clueless have nothing to say they just have to get something in. even if it's nothing. |
LOL.. dude. that is harsh..
Quick story:
2 weeks ago, I was entertaining the idea of selling my 1984 Porsche 944. I was in conversation with a guy who was trying to low-ball me.
In his efforts, he told me that he restores 12 of these cars a year.....
I replied with, " Gee, that's one a month...".
He confirmed my math.
I told him the car was no longer for sale. |
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mark tucker Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009 Posts: 23937 Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 1:13 pm Post subject: Re: Displacement / HP |
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I restore my car every time I park it...under the car port with car cover on it or in the shop with a car cover on it.restored until the next time I go for a drive!! you were wize not to sell it to him....he probably does less than I do. |
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gt1953 Samba Member
Joined: May 08, 2002 Posts: 13837 Location: White Mountains Arizona
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Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:45 pm Post subject: Re: Displacement / HP |
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Had a 1600cc single port all stock even the 205 M distributor rebuilt. On the engine dyno it was 60 HP at the flywheel. Then had it dyno with engine in car on a car dyno wheels on the ground HP was 48 HP. _________________ Volkswagen: We tune what we drive.
Numbers Matching VW's are getting harder to find. Source out the most Stock vehicle and keep that way. You will be glad you did.
72 type 1
72 Squareback
({59 Euro bug, 62, 63, 67, 68, 69, 73 type ones 68 & 69 type two, 68 Ghia all sold}) |
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madmike Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2005 Posts: 5291 Location: Atlanta,Michigan
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Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 4:52 pm Post subject: Re: Displacement / HP |
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Herbie movie:"the strength of Forty Horses" _________________ 'Black Ice'Drag Buggy 'Turbo'
Rail Buggy 1915 turbo
76 Drag/Street bug 2180cc 'Turbo' 11:85 @113 mph"If I go any faster I'll burn up the Hamster" ,gets 28 mpg. also 10/09/22 11.90 @115 mph
"If I'm ever on Life Support,UNPLUG Me, Then Plug me back In see if that Works" |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12586 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 4:59 pm Post subject: Re: Displacement / HP |
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Ohio Tom wrote: |
Quick story:
2 weeks ago, I was entertaining the idea of selling my 1984 Porsche 944. I was in conversation with a guy who was trying to low-ball me.
In his efforts, he told me that he restores 12 of these cars a year.....
I replied with, " Gee, that's one a month...".
He confirmed my math.
I told him the car was no longer for sale. |
Send him to me, I have an '86 that I will sell him cheap. And it will break his 1 month record for restoration big time! $500 cash but I keep the aluminum trailing arms, he can have the rest. It runs too but the engine is so loose I swear the pistons are swapping holes on the fly... _________________ We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76706 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:01 pm Post subject: Re: Displacement / HP |
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Ohio Tom wrote: |
mark tucker wrote: |
Glenn wrote: |
mark tucker wrote: |
10 hp can be a lot. and thats at lower rpm. |
That's a 18.9% increase.
MATH |
wow... when the clueless have nothing to say they just have to get something in. even if it's nothing. |
LOL.. dude. that is harsh.. |
I'm not offended... given the source.
I rather hear from the horse's mouth than the other end of the animal. _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
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Chickensoup Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018 Posts: 5368 Location: Good Hope, GA
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Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:40 pm Post subject: Re: Displacement / HP |
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_________________ -'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" |
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