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Static Timing Questions
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Gadwood74
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 6:34 am    Post subject: Static Timing Questions Reply with quote

Now that I've fixed my vacuum issue by replacing my vacuum can, I don't have high speed hesitations. However, still have power issue.

First, by looking at the picture #0 , can you tell which type of distributor I have?

I've read and watched videos on static timing. I've first placed my single pulley mark right on on the engine crack (see pic #1). OK so far?

Then, I've looked at my distributor (pic #2). Way far from the mark!!!

Question: Should it be aligned like #3? If it's the case, I've tried it and the engine is not running good at all. I've put it back where it was.

Something wrong??

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 6:38 am    Post subject: Re: Static Timing Questions Reply with quote

The V notch is 5* ATDC, the TDC make is the yellow dimple closer to the rear of the car. Is your car and autostick?

The distributor is a DVDA, it has both vacuum advance and retard. What is the part number stamped on the side?
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 6:38 am    Post subject: Re: Static Timing Questions Reply with quote

First, by looking at the picture #0 , can you tell which type of distributor I have?

Post a photo of the side of the distributor, showing the part number.
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Gadwood74
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 6:45 am    Post subject: Re: Static Timing Questions Reply with quote

Here's what I have:
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busdaddy
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 8:32 am    Post subject: Re: Static Timing Questions Reply with quote

Link to previous thread on this: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=755559&highlight=


Hmmm...., no numbers at all, maybe it's a cheapo knockoff with a DVDA can attached?

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Gadwood74
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 10:38 am    Post subject: Re: Static Timing Questions Reply with quote

Even if is a cheapo model…

Am I ok to place the pulley TDC mark aligned with the engine crack and then place the distributor right on the mark / cylinder #1?

Just weird it was not there at all…. And the car was still running (not perfect and under powered).

Maybe it was moved to compensate the advance vacuum that was not working? Make sense?

Then I assume the timing must be done with a timing light.

Any danger to drive the car without being sure the timing is perfect?
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 11:06 am    Post subject: Re: Static Timing Questions Reply with quote

If it runs now you won't improve anything by static timing it, you must use a timing light, and you'll also need a degree wheel if the light doesn't have an advance dial on it.

Driving with the timing off is dangerous, you can damage internal engine parts or over heat it without knowing until it's too late, get your hands on a timing light.
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Gadwood74
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 11:25 am    Post subject: Re: Static Timing Questions Reply with quote

busdaddy wrote:
If it runs now you won't improve anything by static timing it, you must use a timing light, and you'll also need a degree wheel if the light doesn't have an advance dial on it.

Driving with the timing off is dangerous, you can damage internal engine parts or over heat it without knowing until it's too late, get your hands on a timing light.


Great thanks! Your input is appreciated. This is what I thought... And yes now that I own this, the timing light is a must...

But still, Static timing must be right? Even if it is running now (ant I think it runs hot), I better fix the static timing at least?
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 12:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Static Timing Questions Reply with quote

DVDA distributors should not be static timed to the timing notch (5ATDC). Your timing will be too retarded and your engine will have no power. You can static time the distributor to around 5BTDC just to get the engine running. Line up the case split at a point on the crank pulley that is the same distance the 5ATDC mark is away from TDC but CW from the TDC mark. Once it is running, use a strobe timing light to set timing to the timing notch.

Why can’t you use the 5ATDC notch for static timing? Because the 5ATDC idle timing is dependent on the vacuum retard system (which requires vacuum at idle) removing 8-12dg of timing. When you static time the ignition (engine not running) you do not have vacuum and must compensate for the missing ignition retard.
On a properly working DVDA distributor, the static ignition timing is closer to 3-7BTDC. Once the engine is running at idle the vacuum retard system removes 8-12deg of ignition timing (this is done to improve the idle emissions). This drops the idle timing to 5ATDC as seen under the strobe light. Only with the vacuum retard active should the 5ATDC notch line up with the case split.

If you statically set the ignition timing to 5ATDC, then the idle timing will be around 15ATDC instead of 5ATDC once the vacuum retard is working. The 5ATDC timing mark should only be used with a strobe timing light at idle.


Additionally, you need to confirm the vacuum retard system in the distributor is actually working before you set idle timing to 5ATDC. At idle, if you disconnect the vacuum retard hose you should see the timing jump from 5ATDC to around 3-7BTDC because you have disabled the vacuum retard. If this does not happen it means your distributor’s vacuum retard is broken, or you are using the wrong vacuum source. Vacuum retard should have strong vacuum at idle (upper left rear-facing port on the Solex carb).
If your vacuum retard is not working your idle timing should not be 5ATDC. Again, it is only 5ATDC at idle because the vacuum retard removes timing to get it there. If the vacuum retard is broken your idle timing should be closer to 5BTDC.
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Gadwood74
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 12:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Static Timing Questions Reply with quote

Wow Thanks again!

Well not easy to understand, but I’ll read this a couple of time. So the point is that it is normal that my distributor was not on the mark at TDC aligned on the engine crack…

Also I have an EMPI 34 so apparently not too reliable… as it is now, I have my advance vacuum connected only. A few guys tome me the retard vacuum was not needed… should I plug it back (rear of vacuum can to front of carb)?
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 12:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Static Timing Questions Reply with quote

Did you confirm the vacuum advance works?, I seem to recall you saying it made a crinkly noise and didn't move, and allowed you to continue sucking air through it.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 12:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Static Timing Questions Reply with quote

busdaddy wrote:
Did you confirm the vacuum advance works?, I seem to recall you saying it made a crinkly noise and didn't move, and allowed you to continue sucking air through it.

Yes, I was lucky enough to find another vacuum can 100% original and functional !!! The other one was definitively not holding it anymore , not at all
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Static Timing Questions Reply with quote

If you have disabled the vacuum retard then you DEFINITELY do not want to use the 5ATDC notch to set your timing.

Use the OO9 method of disconnecting & plugging all distributor vacuum hoses and revving the engine until the mechanical advance has maxed out. Set this total advance to 28-32BTDC. This is the max safe total rpm-related advance. Let the rpms drop to idle and note the idle timing. Use this idle timing going forward as your idle ignition timing. Reconnect your vacuum advance hose and you are done. With the vacuum retard disconnected your distributor will simulate an SVDA distributor instead of a DVDA.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 6:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Static Timing Questions Reply with quote

ashman40 wrote:
If you have disabled the vacuum retard then you DEFINITELY do not want to use the 5ATDC notch to set your timing.

Use the OO9 method of disconnecting & plugging all distributor vacuum hoses and revving the engine until the mechanical advance has maxed out. Set this total advance to 28-32BTDC. This is the max safe total rpm-related advance. Let the rpms drop to idle and note the idle timing. Use this idle timing going forward as your idle ignition timing. Reconnect your vacuum advance hose and you are done. With the vacuum retard disconnected your distributor will simulate an SVDA distributor instead of a DVDA.


Why would I Keep the retard vacuum? Why would not use it? This is not clear to me… impact on performance, fuel consumption, other?
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 6:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Static Timing Questions Reply with quote

Gadwood74 wrote:
Why would I Keep the retard vacuum? Why would not use it? This is not clear to me… impact on performance, fuel consumption, other?

The vacuum retard system had one purpose... decrease emissions at idle. It did this by retarding the idle timing so the ignition happened later. So much later that at idle the combustion event was still happening when the exhaust valve opened. This carried extra heat into the exhaust system to burn up any unburnt fuel. This reduced the exhaust emissions at idle.

If your location has strict emission requirements for your car, you might need to keep your vacuum retard functioning just to pass smog/emission testing.
Generally, old emission systems rob the engine of power. Disabling them can restore that power.

VW had different model Solex 34Pict carbs that were specifically designed to work with either the SVDA or DVDA type distributors. DVDA specific carbs didn't usually work well with SVDA distributors.
The Empi 34Pict carb you are running was designed to work with either the SVDA or DVDA distributor. It should work fine for your engine with a DVDA distributor running as an SVDA.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 7:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Static Timing Questions Reply with quote

Woah this is interesting. Thanks so much. Clear and simple. I’ve read a lot, never found such summary. Very helpful information for me, thanks again.

I’ll have timing checked this week, hopefully I’ll end un with a great running beetle very soon!!
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 12:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Static Timing Questions Reply with quote

This may be a better way of explaining how the DVDA distributors are timed at 5ATDC at idle and why 5ATDC timing at idle is not the same as 5ATDC static timing...

Starting with a DVDA distributor that is 100% operational. Both the vacuum retard and the vacuum advance are both working normally. We will assume the vacuum retard removes 12deg of ignition timing at idle.

Static timing = 7BTDC

Start with engine warmed up idling @850rpm with hoses disconnected and plugged. Idle timing = 7BTDC. At this rpm and with vacuum advance/retard disconnected/disabled nothing is adding to the original 7BTDC static timing.
    Static timing = 7BTDC
    Mechanical advance = 0deg (this does not start to increase until 1000-1200rpm)
    Vacuum advance = 0deg
    Vacuum retard = 0deg
    Idle timing = 7BTDC


Engine warmed up idling @850rpm with vacuum advance hose connected to left side port on 34Pict carb. Vacuum retard hose is still disconnected & plugged.
This shows why static timing an SVDA and idle timing it usually results in the same (or very close) timing.
    Static timing = 7BTDC
    Mechanical advance = 0deg
    Vacuum advance = 0deg (the left side port is ported vacuum which has zero vacuum at idle when the carb is adjusted properly)
    Vacuum retard = 0deg
    Idle timing = 7BTDC


Engine warmed up idling @850rpm with vacuum advance hose connected to left side port. Vacuum retard hose is now connected to the rear-facing left port on carb (this port has strong vacuum at idle). This results in the vacuum retard system removing ignition timing at idle. When this happens, the idle rpms may drop and the car bypass screw will need to be adjusted to correct the idle timing.
    Static timing = 7BTDC
    Mechanical advance = 0deg
    Vacuum advance = 0deg
    Vacuum retard = -12deg (note this is a negative value as it is retarding the ignition timing not advancing it)
    Idle timing = 5ATDC

Connecting the vacuum hose to the vacuum retard port at idle causes the vacuum retard system to fully retard the ignition timing by 12deg as a means of heating the exhaust gases. Without the vacuum retard connected, idle ignition timing will be closer to 5-7BTDC. You will need to add an appropriate crank pulley mark if you plan to make use of your distributor w/o the vacuum retard system.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Static Timing Questions Reply with quote

I think many get the static timing idea from Muir, it works well on early distributors, not so much on later more complex versions.

1.5 times the distance between that TDC mark and the 5 ATDC mark measured in the opposite direction from TDC is 7.5 BTDC. Wink
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Static Timing Questions Reply with quote

I was also looking at the pictures and it looks like there is not heat risier pipes.
This will cause a problem with the fuel going from gas state to liquid state causing drivability problems.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Static Timing Questions Reply with quote

Michael Ambrozik wrote:
I was also looking at the pictures and it looks like there is not heat risier pipes.
This will cause a problem with the fuel going from gas state to liquid state causing drivability problems.


They are on their way! Currently have a FI exhaust this is why… will swap shortly
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