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sdoyle23
Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2008
Posts: 110
Location: Malden, Ma
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 Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 11:54 am Post subject: Lost turn signals, horn, and emergency flashers |
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1968 beetle, was out driving yesterday, saw someone i know, went to blow the horn, beeped for a second and stopped. I then noticed I had no turn signals either. Pulled over, #2 fuse was blown, replaced it, still nothing.
What works:
Radio, headlights, dome light, speedo light and dimmer.
I replaced all fuses. Sprayed contact cleaner on the block. Tested with meter, all seem to be getting power. Also took the horn button off, disconnected wire, touched to rim, got spark. It does work intermittently, but can't figure out what makes it work. Doesn't seem to be the steering wheel position.
Any ideas? |
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Matt Wilson
Samba Member
Joined: November 14, 2005
Posts: 2408
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:59 am Post subject: Re: Lost turn signals, horn, and emergency flashers |
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Sounds like a bad ground wire probably in the turn signal assembly. Look at the contacts/terminals and brown wires for any damage or loose connections.
_________________
1972 Standard Beetle
1969 Baja Beetle |
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15982
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:21 am Post subject: Re: Lost turn signals, horn, and emergency flashers |
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In '68, fuse #1 and #2 are powered by the ignition switch. Depending which wiring diagram you are following the following are powered by the two fuses:
brakes - black/red
turn signals - black
horn - black/yellow
wipers - black
In one diagram the horn is with the wipers, in another the wipers are on their own fuse.
When you tested fuses #1 and #2 did you confirm there was 12v on both sides of these fuses after replacing them?
Confirming what color wires are connected to which fuse.
Also, confirm which black wire is coming from the ignition switch. It is important this wire is connected to the INPUT side of the fuse box. The INPUT side of the fuse is the side where the #1 and #2 fuses are interconnected by a brass bar. Both the ignition switch and the ignition coil should be connected to the INPUT side of these two fuses. Everything else should be connected to the OUTPUT side of the fuses.
_________________
AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road  }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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sdoyle23
Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2008
Posts: 110
Location: Malden, Ma
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| Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2021 7:15 am Post subject: Re: Lost turn signals, horn, and emergency flashers |
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| Confirmed wiring, everything seems good. Tested all ground points, have continuity. No obvious breaks in any of wiring. Battery and fuse panel is putting out just under 12v. More like 11.5. Now the car will not stay running. Starts right up, but then seems to be fuel starved. Car was running fine before, no issues. Recently checked valves, points, idle. Newish plugs and wires. Rebuilt sparkwerks svda and volkbiz 34 pict 3. Any ideas? |
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sdoyle23
Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2008
Posts: 110
Location: Malden, Ma
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| Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2021 7:35 am Post subject: Re: Lost turn signals, horn, and emergency flashers |
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| Leaving the right turn signal on for a minute causes fuse panel to smoke hot to touch on #2 position |
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sb001
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 10406
Location: NW Arkansas
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| Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2021 7:57 am Post subject: Re: Lost turn signals, horn, and emergency flashers |
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As ashman stated above, on the 68 (basically the same as my 69) the power feed wire to the fuse block from the ignition switch is a black wire that comes in to the #2 INPUT side of the fuse block (this is the side closest to the passenger cabin.) There is a metal bridge on the input side between #1 and #2 fuses as well, so this ignition power feed powers anything coming off BOTH the #1 AND the #2 fuses, as he listed above.
However you will also notice (assuming factory wiring) that there is also another black wire coming off the INPUT side of the #1 fuse. This is your coil wire, that also receives power through that metal bridge strap from the ignition switch wire coming in to the #2 fuse. However, as it comes off the INPUT side it is NOT FUSED, it just receives power straight through that bridge and then goes out to the coil (this is why theoretically you can remove every fuse on the block and the car will still start and run.)
Since this wire carries power straight back to the positive terminal on your coil, and there are a couple of other wires back there that feed off this same terminal (namely the wires that go to your choke and you idle cutoff solenoid on your carburetor) check those wires to see if one of them might be shorting to ground somewhere. This would cause a continuous power flow that is NOT fused and could be the reason your #2 fuse blew and is now getting extremely hot, and may also be causing the car to stall (either causing the coil not to fire properly or causing the idle cutoff solenoid on the carburetor to not be able to function.)
Did you replace the #2 fuse with another 8 amp fuse, or one of higher rating? If everything looks good back at the coil, then it's possible you have a short in your turn signal wiring somewhere (if it only gets hot with the right turn signal on but not the left, it could be something at the turn signal switch itself inside the steering wheel housing.) If you replaced that 8 amp with a higher rated fuse it is not overloading and blowing the higher rated fuse.
_________________
I'm the humblest guy on this board.
1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor |
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sdoyle23
Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2008
Posts: 110
Location: Malden, Ma
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| Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2021 8:11 am Post subject: Re: Lost turn signals, horn, and emergency flashers |
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I just replaced the turn signal relay. It is just the right blinker and emergency flashers not working. However...
I pulled out the emergency flasher to inspect it and found this:
This wire is piggybacked onto the black wire to #2 fuse. I can't say that is didn't come out then I pulled the relay, but it could have come loose, and be causing that to short out. Given the location and length of wire, it looks like it goes to the headlight switch. Have I found the poblem? |
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sb001
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 10406
Location: NW Arkansas
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| Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2021 11:12 am Post subject: Re: Lost turn signals, horn, and emergency flashers |
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There is not supposed to be any factory white wire connected to #2 fuse. And the spade terminal on it looks too small to be a factory wire.
The short answer is yes, if the bare end of that wire was rubbing against metal & the other end was piggybacked to ignition switch wire, then you had a short to ground through #2 fuse every time you switched the ignition on.
The long answer is, you need to unravel the numerous mysteries of your wiring.
_________________
I'm the humblest guy on this board.
1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor |
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15982
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2021 10:59 pm Post subject: Re: Lost turn signals, horn, and emergency flashers |
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Here is the late '68-'69 wiring diagram. It best matches your car with the 6-prong E-Flasher switch (G1).
You can see the E-Flasher switch (G1) in the upper left corner. The #15 terminal is the one powered by the #1 fuse in the fuse box. You can also see a small black wire coming off the #15 terminal of the E-Flasher switch. This wire was meant to power the fuel gauge and the Brake Warning lamp. That small connector looks more like the Brake Warning lamp terminal wire. Check if your are missing a #15 terminal wire off the Brake Warning lamp or the power wire off the fuel gauge vibrator.
If the wire is no longer needed because the fuel gauge and brake warning light has been rewired, consider cutting the wire off as it presents a shorting hazard.
Clean off the terminals and wiring on your E-Flasher switch. That looks "nasty"!  
One more thing to check... your #1 or #2 fuse should have blown if that wire shorted to ground. The stock fuses in '68 were ALL white 8A fuses. Are you running some higher amp fuses?? This might explain why the fuse box got so hot. The 8A fuse should have blown to protect the circuit if enough current was flowing thru it.
_________________
AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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sdoyle23
Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2008
Posts: 110
Location: Malden, Ma
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| Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 9:23 am Post subject: Re: Lost turn signals, horn, and emergency flashers |
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Today's update...
Pulled all fuses. Cleaned block with deoxit, replaced all fuses with brand new 8amp. Pulled the emergency flasher switch, cleaned it with deoxit and a toothbrush. Put everything back together. Ahman, you were correct about 2 things, that wire did in fact go to the brake light indicator, and that relay was dirty.
I now have: left + right blinkers, 4 way flashers, headlights, the brights work intermittently, no indicator light in speedo for blinkers or 4 ways, no light on the 4 way knob. No horn. The radio works, but will shut down if I use the blinkers. Car will start, but will not stay running. The battery is new, but seems to be draining ‐2 volts or more when I try to start it. The radio is wired to the output side of fuse #1 and #9. I basically wired to what was already there from the old radio. Disconnecting it doesn't seem to change anything. I also noticed oil coming from the exhaust now. |
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sb001
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 10406
Location: NW Arkansas
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| Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 9:59 am Post subject: Re: Lost turn signals, horn, and emergency flashers |
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| sdoyle23 wrote: |
Today's update...
Pulled all fuses. Cleaned block with deoxit, replaced all fuses with brand new 8amp. Pulled the emergency flasher switch, cleaned it with deoxit and a toothbrush. Put everything back together. Ahman, you were correct about 2 things, that wire did in fact go to the brake light indicator, and that relay was dirty.
I now have: left + right blinkers, 4 way flashers, headlights, the brights work intermittently, no indicator light in speedo for blinkers or 4 ways, no light on the 4 way knob. No horn. The radio works, but will shut down if I use the blinkers. Car will start, but will not stay running. The battery is new, but seems to be draining ‐2 volts or more when I try to start it. The radio is wired to the output side of fuse #1 and #9. I basically wired to what was already there from the old radio. Disconnecting it doesn't seem to change anything. I also noticed oil coming from the exhaust now. |
Would it be possible to post more photos of the wiring up front (a couple of shots of the fuse panel, and flasher and dimmer relays, etc) That might help us further diagnose more wiring issues.
Also if possible please post a few photos of the engine bay specifically the wiring around the coil and distributor?
The oil out the exhaust will not be wiring related  If the engine is burning oil it could be a number of things- bad rings, valve guides, etc. However if the car was running fine a few days ago and now suddenly won't start I'm guessing that's most likely more an electrical or mechanical failure than worn out parts. (Another reason I asked for a few photos of the engine bay.) I am still wondering if you might have a wiring issue back there. Have you checked your idle cutoff solenoid on the carburetor? The thing sticking out the side of the carb with a black wire attached to it that goes to the ignition coil? With key on, disconnect the black wire from that solenoid and then touch it back to it a few times, you should hear a definitive clicking sound if it's working right.
_________________
I'm the humblest guy on this board.
1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor |
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sdoyle23
Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2008
Posts: 110
Location: Malden, Ma
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| Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 10:35 am Post subject: Re: Lost turn signals, horn, and emergency flashers |
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Photos as requested...
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sb001
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 10406
Location: NW Arkansas
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| Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 1:32 pm Post subject: Re: Lost turn signals, horn, and emergency flashers |
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| sdoyle23 wrote: |
Photos as requested...
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Thanks,
in this last photo you posted, what is the brown/ white wire you have coming off the output side of fuse #1, and the green/white wire you have coming off fuse #9? Are those the wires you have the aftermarket radio connected with? If so, please disconnect those wires and test everything again (from your other posts I am leaning toward the radio wiring being the problem.) The constant power supply for the radio should be the yellow wire from the radio's wire harness (this is what you should have connected to fuse #9), and the switched ignition power should be the red wire from the radio harness (should be connected to fuse #1.) And the ground for the radio should be the black wire from the radio harness, connected obviously to a good ground source.
As far as your horn goes, I see the yellow/black wire for it connected to #1 fuse (I think), is it possible the other end simply came disconnected from the horn itself?
_________________
I'm the humblest guy on this board.
1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor |
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15982
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 8:09 pm Post subject: Re: Lost turn signals, horn, and emergency flashers |
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| sdoyle23 wrote: |
| ... no indicator light in speedo for blinkers or 4 ways, |
Do the other two indicator lamps work? All three bottom indicator lamps on the speedometer share a common 12v+ power source (very bottom terminal). Each of the blue wires from the bulb holders for these indicators run to a switched ground. With the ignition ON, run a jumper wire from a good ground point to the bulb holder for the turn indicator bulb, it should turn ON. If this doesn't work it shows your bulb is at fault.
The indicator lamp itself is specifically a 2W bulb. This is important as the indicator bulb wattage needs to be much lower than the wattage of the corner turn lamps (21W). The current flowing thru the 2W bulb must be so small that it doesn't light up the corner lamps. This allows the 2W bulb to turn ON while passing current thru the corner bulbs which flow the current but do not turn ON.
| sdoyle23 wrote: |
| ... no light on the 4 way knob. |
The early E-Flasher switch knob bulbs were powered by the #49a terminal when the switch was turned ON. The knob bulb basically became a 5th corner turn signal lamp. If the corner lamps work you need to remove the knob and check the bulb and bulb contacts inside the knob. They may need cleaning or the bulb may need to be replaced.
| sdoyle23 wrote: |
| The radio works, but will shut down if I use the blinkers... The radio is wired to the output side of fuse #1 and #9. I basically wired to what was already there from the old radio. |
The fuses you have chosen should be fine. If the radio power wires have an inline fuse or your radio has its own internal fuse, move your connections from the OUTPUT side of the fuse box to the INPUT side. If your wires are already protected with an inline fuse you do not need to add more load to the fuses in the fuse box. Connecting to the INPUT side of the fuse is the proper connection for devices that have their own fuse.
You mentioned the turn signals will kill the radio. Have you measured the voltage level at the fuse when the turn signals are ON. Check both sides of the fuse. The voltage should not drop below 12.0v. If you see very low voltages at the fuse it means the current available is insufficient. This is commonly caused by dirty connections or old wiring with high resistance. It could also be an ignition switch problem with too much internal resistance thru the switch.
Test for voltage drops. Start at the battery so you know what you are starting with. A fully charged battery should read 12.6v. Test voltage at the VR, at the headlight switch, at the fuse box, at the ignition switch. Small voltage drops (0.1v) are to be expected, but if the voltage drops more than 1.0v between the battery and any device it suggests too much resistance along the way. Cleaning up wire connections and in some cases clipping off the wire terminal at the end of the wire and crimping on a new one will reduce the voltage drops.
| sdoyle23 wrote: |
| I also noticed oil coming from the exhaust now. |
That's bad. Oil out the exhaust would mean a leak thru the valve stem seals. This typically gets burnt and comes out as blue smoke instead of liquid oil. The leak must be pretty big.
Could the fluid actually be gasoline? Does it smell like oil?
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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sdoyle23
Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2008
Posts: 110
Location: Malden, Ma
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2021 10:20 am Post subject: Re: Lost turn signals, horn, and emergency flashers *Update* |
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Been a couple of weeks, finally had a chance to get back in there fully. Here's where we're at:
Working
Turn signals
4 way flasher (no light n knob, could be blown bulb)
Headlights
Wipers
Dome light
Not working
Indicator in speedo
Horn (may be sperate issue, can get it to ground out to nut)
The car itself. Won't run.
I have one of those electric emergency jump start boxes. It shows the current voltage when you connect to the battery. It's well below 12v. I hit the jump button, goes to almost 12 car will turn over, die and voltage drops significantly. |
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sdoyle23
Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2008
Posts: 110
Location: Malden, Ma
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2021 10:21 am Post subject: Re: Lost turn signals, horn, and emergency flashers |
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| Also, worth noting battery was purchased last October, has a 10/20 sticker on it. |
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15982
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2021 12:03 pm Post subject: Re: Lost turn signals, horn, and emergency flashers *Update* |
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| sdoyle23 wrote: |
Not working
Indicator in speedo |
Did you test the three indicator lamps at the bottom of the speedometer? Do the OIL and GEN lamps turn ON when you first turn the key to ON/RUN with the engine not running? If the OIL and GEN lamps work, it points to something specific with the turn indicator lamp and the wire between it and the flasher relay.
If none of the three lights work it suggests a problem with the wiring to the bottom terminal of the speedometer. The bottom most wire terminal on the speedometer is where a 12v+ source is connected. This 12v+ power is shared by all three bottom 2W indicator lamps. If you take a grounded wire and touch the wire end/terminal of any of the three bulb holders it should turn the individual bulb ON. Test the turn indicator lamp.
| sdoyle23 wrote: |
| Horn (may be sperate issue, can get it to ground out to nut) |
In '68, the steering shaft, steering wheel and nut that holds the steering wheel to the shaft are all part of the horn (-) circuit. Grounding the horn (-) circuit (grounding the steering wheel/shaft) while the ignition switch is ON will sound the horn. It sounds like this is working for you.
You should just need to look at the horn button. The horn button is connected to the ground wire coming out the center of the steering shaft. When you press on the horn button you are connecting this ground wire to the steering wheel... this grounds the horn (-) circuit and sounds the horn.
| sdoyle23 wrote: |
The car itself. Won't run.
I have one of those electric emergency jump start boxes. It shows the current voltage when you connect to the battery. It's well below 12v. I hit the jump button, goes to almost 12 car will turn over, die and voltage drops significantly. |
Take your battery to your FLAPS and have them charge it fully. Sounds like it has been sitting or has been discharged. A fully charged battery should read 12.6v at the posts. You need a fully charged battery to evaluate if your charging system is working. A working charging system should be able to output a minimum 13.8v as read at the battery terminals while the engine is running @2100rpm, or more.
_________________
AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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