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Glenn 
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76906
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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 Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 1:27 pm Post subject: Re: Pertronix (all points replacements) vs Points |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| Glenn wrote: |
I bought one of them but still using the original 1963 Bosch condenser that's been on my car for 20 years.
You wire it one to ground and the other to the #1 terminal on the coil or distributor... just like the Bosch condenser. |
Interesting! Looks nicely done!
Mount it someplace cool though.....as maximum constant temp of PP is between 180 and 200F.
Ray |
"Not required, but considering heat shortens the life of most electronic components. I had some 1/8" foam on hand, it just took a few seconds to make a pad to cover the under side of the capacitor case."
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
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EVfun
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012
Posts: 5475
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:34 pm Post subject: Re: Pertronix (all points replacements) vs Points |
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| vamram wrote: |
Interesting - do you have a pic in your gallery of how that's wired down to the points? Also, my problem w/points was often the gap slipping, and being afraid of overtightening the hold down screw, stripping the mounting plate. |
I have one of those on my buggy. Mine isn't currently connected because I am still using the 009. You can see the wire running down toward the distributor, along with the green wire from the points. It has a small ring terminal attached to it and will ground to my rebuilt 019 using the screw that would hold the condenser to the outside of the distributor.
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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Fred Winterburn
Samba Member
Joined: April 17, 2013
Posts: 423
Location: Ripley Ontario Canada
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| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 6:41 pm Post subject: Re: Pertronix (all points replacements) vs Points |
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If you want the condenser to perform its best, the lead lengths need to be kept as short as possible, IE connected as close to the points as possible. The primary purpose of the condenser is to suppress the arc at the points when they open. Long lead lengths of only 16 inches will increase the arcing by approximately 15%. Mount the condenser as close to the points as possible. This will maximize the effectiveness of the condenser and reduce energy losses through the arc. Additionally any increased burning of the points will decrease the life of the points exponentially. The original designers installed the condenser next to the points for a reason. Fred
| Glenn wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
| Glenn wrote: |
I bought one of them but still using the original 1963 Bosch condenser that's been on my car for 20 years.
You wire it one to ground and the other to the #1 terminal on the coil or distributor... just like the Bosch condenser. |
Interesting! Looks nicely done!
Mount it someplace cool though.....as maximum constant temp of PP is between 180 and 200F.
Ray |
"Not required, but considering heat shortens the life of most electronic components. I had some 1/8" foam on hand, it just took a few seconds to make a pad to cover the under side of the capacitor case."
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76906
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Fred Winterburn
Samba Member
Joined: April 17, 2013
Posts: 423
Location: Ripley Ontario Canada
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| Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:41 am Post subject: Re: Pertronix (all points replacements) vs Points |
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A heavy ground such as the distributor body should have no appreciable inductance or resistance (unlike a piece of straight wire) so grounding there is fine. It's the total lead length that matters. It needs to be as short as possible which makes the original location the best place. I looked for a long time to find the reason why it matters so much and finally found an article on voltage suppression that explained it. It's not discussing ignition systems, but does explain the concept. Long lead lengths despite having very low inductance have just enough along with slight resistance to act as a voltage drop in series with the condenser providing the voltage is changing quickly. This is something that most engineers don't know and it has nothing to do with tuned circuits as the inductance value is so small compared to the size of the condenser. The effect raises the voltage at the point contacts which leads to increased arcing. The long wires effectively reduce the ability of the condenser to suppress the arc. Going to a higher value condenser to compensate is not a solution. It's easy to see in a dark room on my test machine with the distributor cap off and running the separate spark gap. Personally I prefer using a high temperature, high voltage, X7R ceramic cap soldered and potted inside an original condenser shell. This method has been proven now on several cars. Fred
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Dan Ruddock
Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2012
Posts: 3594
Location: Sarasota, in my adopted state of Florida
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| Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 6:23 am Post subject: Re: Pertronix (all points replacements) vs Points |
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| Thanks Fred, want to make myself one. What voltage and capacitance values should I use. Or just give me a mouser link to what I need. Thanks Dan |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 9:03 am Post subject: Re: Pertronix (all points replacements) vs Points |
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So....mounting this on the distributor body if you use one is the way to go....check!
It would be pretty simple to fab a small sheet metal saddle on the backside of that condensor.......but......AGAIN.......the maker of that part stated its made of Polypropylene (PP).
Polypropylene is only good to about 180°F.... constant. Glass filled PP....slightly higher but not much over 225° F.....constant.
Depending on what vehicle you have....distributor temps in warm weather can be up around 250°-ish. A small standoff bracket could probably largely fix that.
Ray |
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chrisflstf
Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2004
Posts: 3438
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 11:25 am Post subject: Re: Pertronix (all points replacements) vs Points |
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| Fred Winterburn wrote: |
A heavy ground such as the distributor body should have no appreciable inductance or resistance (unlike a piece of straight wire) so grounding there is fine. It's the total lead length that matters. It needs to be as short as possible which makes the original location the best place. I looked for a long time to find the reason why it matters so much and finally found an article on voltage suppression that explained it. It's not discussing ignition systems, but does explain the concept. Long lead lengths despite having very low inductance have just enough along with slight resistance to act as a voltage drop in series with the condenser providing the voltage is changing quickly. This is something that most engineers don't know and it has nothing to do with tuned circuits as the inductance value is so small compared to the size of the condenser. The effect raises the voltage at the point contacts which leads to increased arcing. The long wires effectively reduce the ability of the condenser to suppress the arc. Going to a higher value condenser to compensate is not a solution. It's easy to see in a dark room on my test machine with the distributor cap off and running the separate spark gap. Personally I prefer using a high temperature, high voltage, X7R ceramic cap soldered and potted inside an original condenser shell. This method has been proven now on several cars. Fred
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Somebody should be making/selling these. Id buy a couple |
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76906
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 12:01 pm Post subject: Re: Pertronix (all points replacements) vs Points |
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FYI, if I mount that capacitor at the base of the fan shroud the wire to the distributor only needs to be 4".
02 006 2.5" wire
02 054 3" wire
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
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Fred Winterburn
Samba Member
Joined: April 17, 2013
Posts: 423
Location: Ripley Ontario Canada
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| Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 12:12 pm Post subject: Re: Pertronix (all points replacements) vs Points |
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The Kemet capacitor I used and others have used successfully since I suggested it was made by Kemet but is now obsolete. This capacitor was suggested to me (by a Mr. B Atkins) made by Murata: RDER73A224MUE1H03A I haven't tested this capacitor, but I am confident based on the specs that it is a good replacement. Try it at your own risk (which is really minimal so why not). Solder one lead to the inside of the condenser shell, the other to a piece of wire and then pot the whole thing in epoxy. Fred
| Dan Ruddock wrote: |
| Thanks Fred, want to make myself one. What voltage and capacitance values should I use. Or just give me a mouser link to what I need. Thanks Dan |
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Dan Ruddock
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Joined: October 25, 2012
Posts: 3594
Location: Sarasota, in my adopted state of Florida
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EVfun
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012
Posts: 5475
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 6:01 pm Post subject: Re: Pertronix (all points replacements) vs Points |
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Looking at that part and my 019 distributor it looks like it could be packaged to fit inside the distributor right next to the points. That would be great! Wire distance IS inductance, I see what Fred is saying. Never thought much about it for points but when considering the small voltage needed to induce arcing it makes sense. It is almost comical on my part -- I have had to deal with this at radio frequencies at almost no current, and at 100's of amps at low voltage. I suddenly feel a little dumb.
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2021 6:06 pm Post subject: Re: Pertronix (all points replacements) vs Points |
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| EVfun wrote: |
Looking at that part and my 019 distributor it looks like it could be packaged to fit inside the distributor right next to the points. That would be great! Wire distance IS inductance, I see what Fred is saying. Never thought much about it for points but when considering the small voltage needed to induce arcing it makes sense. It is almost comical on my part -- I have had to deal with this at radio frequencies at almost no current, and at 100's of amps at low voltage. I suddenly feel a little dumb. |
This is how they do the condensers and points inside of the Eberspacher heater units. They are right next to the points. They use a 0.15 microfarad film type capacitor.
Ray |
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kingkarmann
Samba Member
Joined: November 05, 2003
Posts: 4111
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| Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:03 am Post subject: Re: Pertronix (all points replacements) vs Points |
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| Glenn wrote: |
| Zundfolge1432 wrote: |
| Pertronix is a huge steaming pile of shit. Is that plain enough? 😀 |
Jim, don't sugar coat it. |
I was warned about was installing a Pertronix electronic ignition. Having one fail on me during a road trip several years ago should have cured me. I stubbornly held on to the idea that this time would be different. So, I went ahead with it during an engine tine refresh. I started and tried to time it. The timing was jumping all over the place! Should have known.....
Put my breaker points pack in and static timed it. I did a fine tune with the timing light. Sophia purrs like a kitten.
I think I'm going to hang that damned Pertronix over my RV mirror to remind me of my fools errand. 
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Mervo
Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2016
Posts: 75
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 3:30 pm Post subject: Re: Pertronix (all points replacements) vs Points |
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| chrisflstf wrote: |
| The 6 volt modules dont fire if the supply voltage when the engine is cranking over is low. But low is somewhere around 5, 5.2 volts. Less and no bueno |
All ideology aside, this is the heart if the issue.
If the voltage delivered by the installed unit falls, so does the resulting spark quality. This is particularly the case with 6V ignitions. I tried at least three of the Pertronics-type devices on my Porsche 356. They all led to significant voltage drop through the system. One system actually increased the battery voltage at the distributor and improved the spark intensity.
Fred Winterburn's 6V CDI unit was just amazing. It gave consistent spark quality and noticeable torque increase, especially across the low RPM range. Right where you want it in low revving engines. It also has, a small switch where if you desired, you could switch back to the old Kettering system. For the purists - the points are still there and operating. However they just act as circuit breakers and don't carry the high voltage load or degrade over time.
The details are: http://www.capacitordischargeignition.com
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walter kandetzki
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Joined: June 02, 2003
Posts: 918
Location: Dillwyn, VA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2022 12:46 pm Post subject: Re: Pertronix (all points replacements) vs Points |
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| Hi guys I am currently building a 1641 with German 034 distributor and stock 34 pict3 carb and I plan on getting the Petronix II module the correct Bosch resistor coil.should I also run a ford tfi module?I plan on driving this car a lot especially more highway than anything.will keep points etc with me |
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Lingwendil
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Joined: February 25, 2009
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Location: Antioch, California, a block from the hood
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walter kandetzki
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Joined: June 02, 2003
Posts: 918
Location: Dillwyn, VA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2022 2:48 pm Post subject: Re: Pertronix (all points replacements) vs Points |
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| Is there certain fords I need to get one from? |
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spencerfvee
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 3071
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| Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2022 2:49 pm Post subject: Re: Pertronix (all points replacements) vs Points |
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| Zundfolge1432 wrote: |
| Pertronix is a huge steaming pile of shit. Is that plain enough? 😀 |
................................................................................................... i agree 100% at the shop i used to work at. we had a whole box of failed pertronixs . what all ways got me .was the guys that had them fail bought a new set of pertronix for there motor . one guy went to a car show 45 miles from his home .the pertronix failed . he had no spare parts to fix it. so he had to have his bug towed home . it cost him over $100.00 to get home . .spencerfvee |
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15982
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2022 3:43 pm Post subject: Re: Pertronix (all points replacements) vs Points |
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| walter kandetzki wrote: |
| Hi guys I am currently building a 1641 with German 034 distributor and stock 34 pict3 carb and I plan on getting the Petronix II module the correct Bosch resistor coil. |
Not sure if you have read the instructions for the IGNITOR II electronic ignition?
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0247/6913/4628/files/91847V.pdf
It states the distributor should have 0.6ohms resistance thru the primary winding. The OE Bosch coils had 3 to 4ohms of resistance in the primary windings. So when you say you will use the correct Bosch coil... which one were you referring to? What is the primary winding resistance?
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AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road  }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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