| Author |
Message |
GARRICK.CLARK
Samba Member
Joined: June 30, 2012
Posts: 1267
Location: Lancashire UK
|
 Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:08 pm Post subject: Re: More power please |
 |
|
| Mines never welded. The original valance is removable but it's there with the car. No carb window cut outs either. And it's got a built kcr box. Solid mounts are sxxxe on a street car. The noise is horrible. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
sled
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2005
Posts: 6179
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:12 pm Post subject: Re: More power please |
|
|
sounds to me like there might be a lot of room for improvement in the heads and induction system.
before the super pros, I would look at the wedge port heads. They have impressive flow numbers for their port volume. Small volume and high flow = high port velocity which = torque/power
some match ported "big beef" IDF manifolds and properly sized IDF throttle bodies would make for a sweet combo. IF you choose to get manifolds from CB (or anywhere really) you need to specify that the manifolds are FULLY ported, not just the bottom 1" to 2".
then a better-flowing exhaust to round it out and the engine would definitely pick up.
_________________
drive your split. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7214
Location: Videbaek Denmark
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:50 pm Post subject: Re: More power please |
|
|
The Phoenix, A1 etc etc 2" collector opening is not a problem on this side of 190 hp. Infact the larger 2½" openining on Pythons, Evo´´s a.o. is too large 75% of the time. Almost every time I get an engine with such a header on the dyno we end up reducing the collector outlet to get the lower end performance right, and 4 out of 5 times it does not cost power up top. On that account Paul is right. The intermediate tubing on the other hand is MUCH more important than most people think.
_________________
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
UK Luke 72
Samba Member
Joined: September 07, 2011
Posts: 2867
Location: Little Britain
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:59 pm Post subject: Re: More power please |
|
|
| baz76 wrote: |
| UK Luke 72 wrote: |
If your hideaway is the same as mine, that's quite a restriction, Paul said it himself.
Difficulty is getting more power without the revs.
That comes from head work. What do yours flow? |
My dyno guy swore the flange between header and silencer was holding it back but I didn't pay him much attention as I thought Paul knew what he was doing.
The heads are small oval port, flow around 170 cfms according to jd, I haven't had them tested. They're 041s though so not sure if there's anything left in them to hunt for.
Exhaust is definitely something I'll look into first though to see what gains can be found there.
Any recommendations for exhausts anybody? |
I can't remember exactly, I think he said it'll support 170bhp, same with my 36mm itbs.
I am.yet to prove/disprove that yet though, I'll be on his dyno at some point.
Is that 170cfm at 25"?
_________________
2276 Beetle build https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=670744&highlight=2276+beetle+daily
2276 EFI Conversion https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=689172 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
challomoner
Samba Member
Joined: October 13, 2010
Posts: 1214
Location: IRELAND
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:26 pm Post subject: Re: More power please |
|
|
I'm not sure Luke, it was mentioned briefly in a phone call years ago but I can't remember.
I think after listening to advice here and elsewhere that I'm gonna look for some wedge ports and ported idf manifolds, along with a better exhaust system. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
74 Thing
Samba Member
Joined: September 02, 2004
Posts: 7391
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:43 am Post subject: Re: More power please |
|
|
Have you looked at CBs CNC Wedge ports in 44x37 with matchported manifolds?
The intake port volume is much smaller and may be better suited for your needs. Maybe give CB a call and speak with Pat Downs or take Torbin (Alstrup) up on his offer.
https://www.cbperformance.com/CNC-Ported-044-Cylinder-Heads-s/329.htm |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
challomoner
Samba Member
Joined: October 13, 2010
Posts: 1214
Location: IRELAND
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:04 am Post subject: Re: More power please |
|
|
Talking with Torbin about those, I was thinking 42mm intakes but we'll see what Torbin recommends. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
challomoner
Samba Member
Joined: October 13, 2010
Posts: 1214
Location: IRELAND
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:13 am Post subject: Re: More power please |
|
|
| What would people suggest for throttle body size? 38/40/42/45/48 are the options. If assuming wedge ports on big beef manifolds and a 42mm intake valve. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
andreas5bmw
Samba Member
Joined: September 13, 2004
Posts: 63
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 2:49 am Post subject: Re: More power please |
|
|
| Something isn’t right here you should be able to make 180hp with that combo,,,what aren’t you telling us,,,,what ignition system and what are the jet sizes in the carb. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
challomoner
Samba Member
Joined: October 13, 2010
Posts: 1214
Location: IRELAND
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 3:07 am Post subject: Re: More power please |
|
|
| andreas5bmw wrote: |
| Something isn’t right here you should be able to make 180hp with that combo,,,what aren’t you telling us,,,,what ignition system and what are the jet sizes in the carb. |
180 never gonna happen with these heads. No carbs, it's on tbs.
Pulled motor yesterday, I've 3 oily plugs so that's first thing to remedy. Only one plug is a accessible without tearing half the motor apart, that's the one I've been checking, number 4 and its dry.
Manifolds are X shaped rather than V, that's next thing to fix.
Gonna advance the cam, get new cylinders and rings properly honed, check heads for leaks, maybe better valve job, Port the manifolds, then see where its at then. Luckily I will have torben working on it for me.
If we find 10% overall and good boost in mid range I'll be happy to keep it as for another year. If not I'll see about wedge ports. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12714
Location: Western Canada
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:08 am Post subject: Re: More power please |
|
|
| GARRICK.CLARK wrote: |
I believe turbo motors in a street vw are too much for a street vw. Which makes them a hand full to drive, a BIT like a sports bike. Just how I like em really.
Sports bikes are dangerous and so are big power air cooled turbo bugs. |
That is only true if you built a monster engine, add a turbo and then go for maximum HP. In my view what happens is you get not only the best of both worlds in the HP department but also the worst of both worlds in drivability. Dial it way back, try building a mild street engine with a turbo in mind. It becomes a completely drivable, controllable pussy cat with extra bite.
That is the way the auto manufacturers have been doing it now for what? 20 years now?
Take a look at Clonebug's engine. He gets way more than what the OP wants out of a very mild 1600 and says it's as drivable as a stock Beetle. I would go up a couple notches on displacement and back off on boost, leave everything else like he has it.
I also agree with the OP on butchering the rear sheet metal. Removing the rear apron and bumper compromises the structural integrity of the car in a collision. I am very surprised that yours is licenced for the street that way. It wouldn't pass inspection here.
_________________
We had the stone age, the bronze age, the industrial age and now we are in the age of mass deception and mind control for corporate profit. (The mass media age) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GARRICK.CLARK
Samba Member
Joined: June 30, 2012
Posts: 1267
Location: Lancashire UK
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 8:03 am Post subject: Re: More power please |
|
|
| If mine's not safe, take a look at volksrods. Baja bugs, rails, fibreglass 356's. A rear bumper and a valance won't help in a bad rear end shunt. No chance. Plus I can drive mine round town at slow speeds as well as boosting it up on long straights only at high speeds a swing axle bug isn't that safe. And this guy wants more power, he wants it to go quick/fast, not pootle around town like an old granny. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GARRICK.CLARK
Samba Member
Joined: June 30, 2012
Posts: 1267
Location: Lancashire UK
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 8:11 am Post subject: Re: More power please |
|
|
| To be fair, my set up should of been fitted to a super beetle. Irs out back and macpherson up front. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
74 Thing
Samba Member
Joined: September 02, 2004
Posts: 7391
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:50 pm Post subject: Re: More power please |
|
|
| baz76 wrote: |
| andreas5bmw wrote: |
| Something isn’t right here you should be able to make 180hp with that combo,,,what aren’t you telling us,,,,what ignition system and what are the jet sizes in the carb. |
180 never gonna happen with these heads. No carbs, it's on tbs.
Pulled motor yesterday, I've 3 oily plugs so that's first thing to remedy. Only one plug is a accessible without tearing half the motor apart, that's the one I've been checking, number 4 and its dry.
Manifolds are X shaped rather than V, that's next thing to fix.
Gonna advance the cam, get new cylinders and rings properly honed, check heads for leaks, maybe better valve job, Port the manifolds, then see where its at then. Luckily I will have torben working on it for me.
If we find 10% overall and good boost in mid range I'll be happy to keep it as for another year. If not I'll see about wedge ports. |
Nice, keep us posted on the outcome and post some photos of the work if at all possible. You are in good hands with Torben-hoping for good results! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
challomoner
Samba Member
Joined: October 13, 2010
Posts: 1214
Location: IRELAND
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 5:35 am Post subject: Re: More power please |
|
|
Some updates, we had delays due to lack of parts availability along with workshop holidays, but now getting places with fixing the problems.
Larger intakes and reshaped ports.
Manifolds had restriction midway down, now corrected.
I have the cam advanced 2 degrees, cylinders to be prepped next then hopefully back up and running in not too distant future.
Got to fit a map sensor and necessary plumbing in the meantime.
Thanks Torben. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ralf
Samba Member
Joined: July 08, 2008
Posts: 1215
Location: r4
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 5:46 am Post subject: Re: More power please |
|
|
if i may chime in
what ecu/management are you using because you are on ITB i read earlier
nice set up btw
_________________
Flow Through a Curved Conduit
porting my SP head for my brother's project
https://youtu.be/OS_mVjQuqgk |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
challomoner
Samba Member
Joined: October 13, 2010
Posts: 1214
Location: IRELAND
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 6:13 am Post subject: Re: More power please |
|
|
| ralf wrote: |
if i may chime in
what ecu/management are you using because you are on ITB i read earlier
nice set up btw |
Thanks. I've an ancient dta s40 ecu, it's what came with the complete efi kit from vwspeedshop. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Paul.H
Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2015
Posts: 613
Location: England
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 6:32 am Post subject: Re: More power please |
|
|
| baz76 wrote: |
Few more details, compression is 10.2.1, I don't want to go higher on pump gas.
Exhaust is 1 5/8 speedshop hideaway.
Induction is 45mm throttle bodies from vwspeedshop. I don't particularly like these as plugs and manifold nuts are a nightmare to access due to manifold shape. I was considering getting idf manifolds with the super pros and switch to idf style throttle bodies. |
Baz
If I remember correctly at the time I advised you against the heads you had ordered and apart from the personal logistical issues you had getting the heads you ended up having to actually weld up the manifolds because the cast in port was too large for the head flange (and it ain't that big) so that says the port on the heads is too small for your application and mis matched to the 45mm throttle bodies. My advice was just get some CB Wedgeports.
Regarding plug access and nuts on the manifolds. If you want a little more convenience you can reshape the nut area to accept regular manifold nuts 11mm and don't bother with the third stud. you can also grind away some of flange . I mean you've ground the shit out of everything else so it shouldn't be a problem.
So OK you decide to change the manifolds for IDF big beef which is the only option you have then try and match port them to the super pro heads If you are really careful you may have a 1mm wall thickness next to nut and will have to weld it up. At this point you will realise why the manifolds you have were designed the way they are and you will still have the same shitty plug access.
If you need more runner volume (probably not) then the manifolds are available in a 50mm version which have an as cast port almost the same as the CB Wedgeports . Someone on here will tell you all about that as they just match ported a pair of each size.
Exhausts- If you want the full top end performance of a 2276 with wedgeports you will need to put a merged header with a straight through muffler Cal Look style. You get a choice with exhaust quiet or lound what's it going to be ?
An engine is only as good as it's it's weakest link and that in your case was the heads you bought. I even vaguely rember telling you after you had received the heads to get rid while they were still new and unused ?
PS What exactly do you want more power for anyway ? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7214
Location: Videbaek Denmark
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 6:53 am Post subject: Re: More power please |
|
|
I should have cleaned the parts better before public appearance  Ahh well, its a working progress. The manifold is only finished on the right side. The left needs a little more work.
Wrt the ports. I have not touched the intake flange so to speak. The port itself flowed enough. it was more a matter of directing the flow, so the dogleg in the ports have been filled with Belzona and straightened. Also the "outer" side of the ports have beenr eshaped for a straighter sho at the valves.
The seat ID was about 92% too much for a street engine IMHO Also the wall side of the port came too much at an angle so the air would actually slip going into the seat. So eventhough I have installed a seat for a 44 mm intake I have litterally only cleaned the wall side up and not removed any material.
The chambers have basicly only been cleaned apart from the wall side. There the transition from seat to chamber has been worked on. Also, there was a small ridge between seat and chamber on the plug side, that has been smoothed out.
Tomorrow the heads will go to Westspeed to get the seats cut.
_________________
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
challomoner
Samba Member
Joined: October 13, 2010
Posts: 1214
Location: IRELAND
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 6:54 am Post subject: Re: More power please |
|
|
| Paul.H wrote: |
| baz76 wrote: |
Few more details, compression is 10.2.1, I don't want to go higher on pump gas.
Exhaust is 1 5/8 speedshop hideaway.
Induction is 45mm throttle bodies from vwspeedshop. I don't particularly like these as plugs and manifold nuts are a nightmare to access due to manifold shape. I was considering getting idf manifolds with the super pros and switch to idf style throttle bodies. |
Baz
If I remember correctly at the time I advised you against the heads you had ordered and apart from the personal logistical issues you had getting the heads you ended up having to actually weld up the manifolds because the cast in port was too large for the head flange (and it ain't that big) so that says the port on the heads is too small for your application and mis matched to the 45mm throttle bodies. My advice was just get some CB Wedgeports.
Regarding plug access and nuts on the manifolds. If you want a little more convenience you can reshape the nut area to accept regular manifold nuts 11mm and don't bother with the third stud. you can also grind away some of flange . I mean you've ground the shit out of everything else so it shouldn't be a problem.
So OK you decide to change the manifolds for IDF big beef which is the only option you have then try and match port them to the super pro heads If you are really careful you may have a 1mm wall thickness next to nut and will have to weld it up. At this point you will realise why the manifolds you have were designed the way they are and you will still have the same shitty plug access.
If you need more runner volume (probably not) then the manifolds are available in a 50mm version which have an as cast port almost the same as the CB Wedgeports . Someone on here will tell you all about that as they just match ported a pair of each size.
Exhausts- If you want the full top end performance of a 2276 with wedgeports you will need to put a merged header with a straight through muffler Cal Look style. You get a choice with exhaust quiet or lound what's it going to be ?
An engine is only as good as it's it's weakest link and that in your case was the heads you bought. I even vaguely rember telling you after you had received the heads to get rid while they were still new and unused ?
PS What exactly do you want more power for anyway ? |
Hi Paul, I decided to stick with the heads for now, torben has addressed some problems so hopefully they should be better now.
I don't use the third stud nut, I kept the stud though to help intake gasket stay in place and not get sucked in. There wouldn't be an issue with access if I had hi pacs, and I appreciate all hi po motors have access issues on the plugs and manifold nuts so it's not strictly a problem with your manifolds, I considered idf pattern manifolds as they appear a little more slender and perhaps access a little improved. Also the availability of smaller sized tbs was a factor in that consideration. For now though I'm gonna live with what I got, next motor will be centre mount turbo.
I ground away the extra material at the manifold bases so I didn't need to trim my tins so much.
Why do I want more power? Seriously? Don't we all? To be honest I never felt the motor lived up to its full potential and that bothered me, so fixing it rather than ditching parts seems the logical thing to do.
Ps I'd like to get my car to your dyno if possible sometime over the winter. When this engine was originally built and seized on the dyno I'm sure I saw a flat torque curve from 2500-5500 before the seizure took place.
There's now a big dip after 2500 that doesn't recover until 3600. It's the same spec engine just with a different tuner. I stupidly over wrote the map that was in the ecu from the initial tuning session. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
