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jpaull
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005
Posts: 3466
Location: Paradise, Ca
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 Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:15 am Post subject: Re: andrigs fan |
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| richierich wrote: |
| Vanapplebomb wrote: |
Applegreen, please stop, let’s not go down that rabbit hole again. If you want to suggest things like we probably work for EMPI, then don’t be upset if this thread deteriorates and gets locked…again.
I think it is perfectly valid to question material. Polymers can be particularly fussy with their environment. UV radiation and water absorption are my two concerns. Knowing the material would help us judge the long term stability of the product, just as the material of a connecting rod or crankshaft gives us some idea of how much abuse it can take.
Without knowing a material, all we can do is wait 5-10 years or so and see what happens.
I would love to see how it holds up in an open buggy exposed to UV radiation. Hopefully someone buys it to test in a harsh environment like that.
Looking forward to results.  |
Why not join those of us who are going to buy one to try and be part of the testing then? They're cheap enough (and I'm in the UK so will have shipping on top but still willing to give it a shot) |
Yup, X2! Its ironic, people buy plastic stuff all day, but yet this time, people argue about the plastic content first. The creater already said hes keeping it a trade secret, so Ray, Vanapple, and anyone else that keeps asking over and over, give it a rest and leave the guy alone. Buy it if u want, its less then $100 my gosh. If your too skeptical, dont buy it.
_________________
[email protected] MPH 1/4 Mile & 8.1 @ 83.7MPH in 1/8 Mile with Mild Type 1 VW Mag Case 2234cc commuter engine in stock weight bug w/only .491 total lift(CB2292 Cam), 42x37 heads, 48idf's, Street tires, Belt on, Mufflers, Pump gas, video of the run here: https://youtu.be/M3SPqMOKAOg
Transmission by MCMScott:
Rhino case, Klinkenberg 4.12, Superdiff, 002 mainshaft with 091 first idler. Weddle 1.48 Third & 1.14 Fourth. |
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Vanapplebomb
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010
Posts: 5417
Location: Holland, MI
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| Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:57 am Post subject: Re: andrigs fan |
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| richierich wrote: |
| Why not join those of us who are going to buy one to try and be part of the testing then? They're cheap enough (and I'm in the UK so will have shipping on top but still willing to give it a shot) |
I prefer to know if something would be useful to me before I test it. Some things are worth my time, some not. For example, I wouldn’t bother testing a cast iron or an 1018 steel crankshaft. It’s just something that wouldn’t be of use to me.
Just a personal preference.
To each there own.
But hey, if it’s a polymer that doesn’t absorb a lot of water and weaken, and it’s in a full body bug, that renders the UV exposure issue irrelevant, so maybe it’s a great candidate for a car. In a case like that, I think it would be awesome.
Again, I commend the designer for putting in the effort to try something new. It’s what keeps the hobby alive and interesting!
_________________
1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021 |
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Vanapplebomb
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010
Posts: 5417
Location: Holland, MI
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| Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:09 am Post subject: Re: andrigs fan |
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| jpaull wrote: |
| Yup, X2! Its ironic, people buy plastic stuff all day, but yet this time, people argue about the plastic content first. |
I am not trying to pick a fight, but there is a huge difference between something like a plastic gear knob and something spinning 10,000 + rpm.
I have seen the damage from a steel fan that tossed a couple blades, and it wasn’t pretty. If a poly fan came apart due to getting brittle with age, to me that’s a pretty big deal.
That said, there are a lot of great fiber reinforced plastics out these there that I would trust more than say a cast aluminum version of the same physical dimensions. So who knows, it could be trouble waiting to happen, or it could be absolutely fantastic!
If the designer wishes not to say what it is made out of, that’s fine, and I understand fully, then only time and aging will tell.
_________________
1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021 |
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jpaull
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005
Posts: 3466
Location: Paradise, Ca
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| Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:40 am Post subject: Re: andrigs fan |
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| Vanapplebomb wrote: |
| jpaull wrote: |
| Yup, X2! Its ironic, people buy plastic stuff all day, but yet this time, people argue about the plastic content first. |
I am not trying to pick a fight, but there is a huge difference between something like a plastic gear knob and something spinning 10,000 + rpm.
I have seen the damage from a steel fan that tossed a couple blades, and it wasn’t pretty. If a poly fan came apart due to getting brittle with age, to me that’s a pretty big deal.
That said, there are a lot of great fiber reinforced plastics out these there that I would trust more than say a cast aluminum version of the same physical dimensions. So who knows, it could be trouble waiting to happen, or it could be absolutely fantastic!
If the designer wishes not to say what it is made out of, that’s fine, and I understand fully, then only time and aging will tell. |
Which type 1 would you put it on? Your always talking about type 4 stuff
_________________
[email protected] MPH 1/4 Mile & 8.1 @ 83.7MPH in 1/8 Mile with Mild Type 1 VW Mag Case 2234cc commuter engine in stock weight bug w/only .491 total lift(CB2292 Cam), 42x37 heads, 48idf's, Street tires, Belt on, Mufflers, Pump gas, video of the run here: https://youtu.be/M3SPqMOKAOg
Transmission by MCMScott:
Rhino case, Klinkenberg 4.12, Superdiff, 002 mainshaft with 091 first idler. Weddle 1.48 Third & 1.14 Fourth. |
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Dauz
Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2010
Posts: 1791
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| Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 9:43 am Post subject: Re: andrigs fan |
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| Waiting in anticipation for real world trials and feedback. |
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chrisflstf
Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2004
Posts: 3446
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 9:50 am Post subject: Re: andrigs fan |
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| I think uv and heat cycling may be the biggest obstacles. Arent there uv coatings to fix that? |
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Vanapplebomb
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010
Posts: 5417
Location: Holland, MI
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| Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:14 am Post subject: Re: andrigs fan |
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| jpaull wrote: |
| Which type 1 would you put it on? Your always talking about type 4 stuff |
I personally don’t own any T1 stuff, but I do work for a few of my friends who I off road with, and their fiberglass buggies and rails are all T1 powered. They like to tinker with them quite a bit, so I could pop a fan in any of them.
| chrisflstf wrote: |
| I think uv and heat cycling may be the biggest obstacles. Arent there uv coatings to fix that? |
There are spray on coatings to block UV light, which if they stick, should work well.
But, you are right, heat cycling could be an issue. Not while the engine is running, but when shut down. Fan shrouds can get pretty warm as the engine cools down. I have never measured it, but I can’t imagine the fan would see too much of that heat. I would be surprised if the fan would get much above 150F after shut down, but who knows.
_________________
1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021 |
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Dauz
Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2010
Posts: 1791
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| Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:18 am Post subject: Re: andrigs fan |
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| chrisflstf wrote: |
| I think uv and heat cycling may be the biggest obstacles. Arent there uv coatings to fix that? |
sun tan lotion.. lol |
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texastomeh
Samba Member
Joined: November 20, 2018
Posts: 291
Location: Dallas, TX
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| Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:19 am Post subject: Re: andrigs fan |
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GUYS,
Let's DON"T scare ANDRIGS off and kill the goose that is potentially (hopefully) going to lay a golden egg!!
He may well say; "To H#LL with it, I don't need this BS!! I try to do something and all I get is a load of crap from a bunch of TROLLS"
I ABSOLUTELY AGREE that information re the construction and testing are legitimate questions. HOWEVER, what we ask for and how we ask, are of paramount importance!! I am a retired aerospace Electrical Engineer/Director having spent 40+ years with the Dept. of the Navy and McDonnell Douglas/ Boeing in Advance Development and have been on BOTH sides of the fence.
There are certain materials and processes that are legitimately proprietary (not saying that is the case here). The customer is legitimately entitled to information that is required to determine if the product satisfies their requirements. They are NOT necessarily entitled to info to satisfy their curiosity. We all know that there are members of this very forum that LEGITEMALY refuse to release or share design details, processes, or test methods/results. The customer is certainly entitled to make suggestions and recommendations, and the developer is just entitled to ignore them. It is VERY easy for a "Developer" and the "Customer" to develop an adversarial relationship in this area (again, having been on BOTH sides of the fence).
IF he wants us to buy the fan, he will provide the info and data NECESSARY for KNOWLEDGABLE potential buyers to make an informed decision. If not, don't buy it - I know that I won't. It is NOT the responsibility of the BUYER to do R&D and QA unless that is part of the agreed-to process.
IF this is something that we want and need, as I think that it is, let's do everything that we can to encourage and assist him IF HE DESIRES- not scare him off by poking our noses into his business or sidetracking him with our desire for the perfect airplane, missile, radar, or weapon system that does everything for everyone - but NONE OF THEM WELL!! Been there, done that!!
I wish him ALL the LUCK in the world and will absolutely positively buy one of the fans IF it proves out as an improvement.
THANX, and STAY WELL!!
Tom
_________________
A new engine build won't solve ALL of life's problems - only those THAT REALLY MATTER!!!
GETTING old was GREAT - BEING old SUCKS!!
Too bad that the guys that know how to solve all of the WORLD's problems are too busy working on old Volkswagens!! |
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txoval
Samba Member
Joined: January 23, 2004
Posts: 3553
Location: The Woodlands, TX
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| Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:23 am Post subject: Re: andrigs fan |
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Part of the $89 I spent was for the R&D that the seller performed. I chose to take him at his word and try it out.
It may turn out to be a POS, and will fall off the market if so.
You take the same risk when you spend $120 on a welded/balanced fan. Do you ask those suppliers what welding procedure was used? What types of welding rods? Was the welder certified?
This thread is crazy. It's an $89 part! If you can't afford to take a chance on it don't buy it and don't comment.
Heck, Ray says he can determine 20 different characteristics on the material and injection procedure just by looking at it. If anyone is that curious, buy one and send to him for evaluation. |
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Scott65Beetle
Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2009
Posts: 236
Location: Indpls
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| Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:42 am Post subject: Re: andrigs fan |
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| I cant wait to try it. The tinkering spirit is what brought us Beetles in the first place!!!! |
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mark tucker
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009
Posts: 23937
Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:58 am Post subject: Re: andrigs fan |
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| Dauz wrote: |
| Waiting in anticipation for real world trials and feedback. |
well that's was my intention when I started this thread for this new product...not another shit storm.
personaly Ive spun up a good few vw fan blades...( in the shroud, not on engine)they all vibrate all to hell some much worse than others..just that and the possibility of better cooling is what has me interested in this product. |
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Dauz
Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2010
Posts: 1791
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| Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 12:39 pm Post subject: Re: andrigs fan |
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| mark tucker wrote: |
| Dauz wrote: |
| Waiting in anticipation for real world trials and feedback. |
well that's was my intention when I started this thread for this new product...not another shit storm.
personaly Ive spun up a good few vw fan blades...( in the shroud, not on engine)they all vibrate all to hell some much worse than others..just that and the possibility of better cooling is what has me interested in this product. |
How do you suppose composites/polymers are balanced? Particularly in this situation. Spin and shave? Just curious |
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Busstom
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2014
Posts: 3855
Location: San Jose, CA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 12:41 pm Post subject: Re: andrigs fan |
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| txoval wrote: |
| <snip> ...Ray says he can determine 20 different characteristics on the material and injection procedure just by looking at it. If anyone is that curious, buy one and send to him for evaluation. |
Yer readin' my mind dude, readin' my mind. $89 is chump change! If someone needs to know, buy one, cut it up, smash it, send it out, have it analyzed, send Ray some pieces, make a collage with it, or a mobile out of it. Hell, make some earrings for the ol' lady.
I wish the other thread didn't get locked, I'd estimated it'd go at least 15 - 20 pages. Keep this one goin!
Rant over, flame on!  |
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texastomeh
Samba Member
Joined: November 20, 2018
Posts: 291
Location: Dallas, TX
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| Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 12:45 pm Post subject: Re: andrigs fan |
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| Quote: |
Dauz wrote:
Waiting in anticipation for real world trials and feedback.
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X2!!
Tom
_________________
A new engine build won't solve ALL of life's problems - only those THAT REALLY MATTER!!!
GETTING old was GREAT - BEING old SUCKS!!
Too bad that the guys that know how to solve all of the WORLD's problems are too busy working on old Volkswagens!! |
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spencerfvee
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 3071
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| Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:23 pm Post subject: Re: andrigs fan |
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| mark tucker wrote: |
| Dauz wrote: |
| Waiting in anticipation for real world trials and feedback. |
well that's was my intention when I started this thread for this new product...not another shit storm.
personaly Ive spun up a good few vw fan blades...( in the shroud, not on engine)they all vibrate all to hell some much worse than others..just that and the possibility of better cooling is what has me interested in this product. |
...............................................................................................................i feal your pain mark .  spencerfvee |
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jpaull
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005
Posts: 3466
Location: Paradise, Ca
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| Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:27 pm Post subject: Re: andrigs fan |
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One problem with the current metal fans is the basic sheetmetal flexes so easy. Half of these that i install, i spin them, and they are not even true. When tightening it on, it bends/flexes some. it relys on one thin sheet of flexible sheetmetal to keep straight. Not exactly a foundation of strength.
A one piece of composite that is most likely not flexible seems like something that would stay straight and true better.
_________________
[email protected] MPH 1/4 Mile & 8.1 @ 83.7MPH in 1/8 Mile with Mild Type 1 VW Mag Case 2234cc commuter engine in stock weight bug w/only .491 total lift(CB2292 Cam), 42x37 heads, 48idf's, Street tires, Belt on, Mufflers, Pump gas, video of the run here: https://youtu.be/M3SPqMOKAOg
Transmission by MCMScott:
Rhino case, Klinkenberg 4.12, Superdiff, 002 mainshaft with 091 first idler. Weddle 1.48 Third & 1.14 Fourth. |
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richierich
Samba Member
Joined: December 23, 2004
Posts: 889
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| Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:43 pm Post subject: Re: andrigs fan |
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| jpaull wrote: |
One problem with the current metal fans is the basic sheetmetal flexes so easy. Half of these that i install, i spin them, and they are not even true. When tightening it on, it bends/flexes some. it relys on one thin sheet of flexible sheetmetal to keep straight. Not exactly a foundation of strength.
A one piece of composite that is most likely not flexible seems like something that would stay straight and true better. |
Yep. I've had two welded fans break on me and both times it's been at the hub.
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Blah.....
Last edited by richierich on Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:44 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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chrisflstf
Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2004
Posts: 3446
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:44 pm Post subject: Re: andrigs fan |
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| Put me down for one. The metal fans in current use, like Jeff indicated have alot of runout and wobble. Plus this new one is lighter, less alternator bearing wear in the long run also |
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Vanapplebomb
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010
Posts: 5417
Location: Holland, MI
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| Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:50 pm Post subject: Re: andrigs fan |
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I have seen that too. A lot of the new ones have quite a bit of run out. I had to tweak the hub on one to keep it from rubbing the housing as it spun. I wasn’t happy with it even after tweeting it and found an old stock one in good shape to replace it with. The stock one felt heavier, possibly a few thou thicker sheet metal.
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1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021 |
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