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Ceckert64 Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2015 Posts: 1957 Location: Manitowoc, WI
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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:11 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4, 1700cc engine rebuild for a bus, what to do, suggestions |
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Thanks for the replies Clatter! I need to stop by the engine shop soon, this engine is on the back burner for now. I’m finishing up my bug to sell and that currently has priority. But I did score some super solid bus heater boxes for $40 at a VW show along with some real Weber 44 IDFs that came off a running Baja bug for $220. Will the 44s be too big for a 1700? My local VW shop has some of the Hall effect distributors, but for water cooled. Could I just rob the internals and swap them?
_________________ 1964 sunroof Beetle Restoration "Herbie"
“Joann” 1970 Elm Green Squareback
1972 Sierra Yellow Tin Top Westfalia Camper
“Fitz” 1971 Westfalia Poptop |
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Chickensoup Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018 Posts: 5368 Location: Good Hope, GA
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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:19 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4, 1700cc engine rebuild for a bus, what to do, suggestions |
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i would run a tuned header and use a diesel heater so your bus sounds like a jet/hotel room window AC
although a tuned merge header would absolutely make more power and be more efficient, idk how well those heaterboxes flow and if it would be worth it with your carb, cam, and head combo. _________________ -'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" |
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7537 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:52 am Post subject: Re: Type 4, 1700cc engine rebuild for a bus, what to do, suggestions |
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Major, Major score on both accounts!
Those heaters are just the ticket.
Get the Empi t-bird copy..
You'll likely need to pop for small venturies for those carbs.
What size valves did you end up with, again?
42 x 36? Then some 34 vents should be ideal.
IDF 44s usually have 36s, and you might just try those and see how they work.
If you have smaller valves.. Then that means smaller vents..
I still tell ya you should find a 2.0 crank/rod assembly somewhere...! _________________ Bus Motor Build
What’s That Noise?!? |
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Chickensoup Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018 Posts: 5368 Location: Good Hope, GA
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:20 am Post subject: Re: Type 4, 1700cc engine rebuild for a bus, what to do, suggestions |
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Clatter wrote: |
Major, Major score on both accounts!
I still tell ya you should find a 2.0 crank/rod assembly somewhere...! |
Yes. More displacement to work better with those carbs. That And the 2.0 rotating assembly is stronger right? _________________ -'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21512 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:33 am Post subject: Re: Type 4, 1700cc engine rebuild for a bus, what to do, suggestions |
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Chickensoup wrote: |
Clatter wrote: |
Major, Major score on both accounts!
I still tell ya you should find a 2.0 crank/rod assembly somewhere...! |
Yes. More displacement to work better with those carbs. That And the 2.0 rotating assembly is stronger right? |
No....actually weaker.
The type 4 2.0 crank....is the identical forging as the 1.7/1.8.....but.....its ground "offset" . It has a 5mm smaller rod journal to get that extra 5mm of stroke.
Ray |
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Chickensoup Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018 Posts: 5368 Location: Good Hope, GA
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:19 am Post subject: Re: Type 4, 1700cc engine rebuild for a bus, what to do, suggestions |
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then i see no reason he cant have his current crank ground offset for the 2.0 throw. just need the 2.0 rods. _________________ -'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21512 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:31 am Post subject: Re: Type 4, 1700cc engine rebuild for a bus, what to do, suggestions |
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Chickensoup wrote: |
then i see no reason he cant have his current crank ground offset for the 2.0 throw. just need the 2.0 rods. |
I don't see why not....I don't knw if that is anything out if the ordinary for a crank grinder. I would say just be sure to have the journals hardened or nitrided.
At that rate....I am betting you can find a good 71mm/2.0L crankshaft out there ready to go for less effort and $. Ray |
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7537 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:18 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4, 1700cc engine rebuild for a bus, what to do, suggestions |
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Ya,
If you have access to some junk like our esteemed OP here,
The chances of finding a 2.0 crank/rods is pretty good.
Usually try to use a 1.7 for the case/heads/rockers/exhaust/tin,
And a 2.0 for the crank, rods and P&L.
Early cases and heads are higher quality and less likely to be roached.
Late crank and rods is a 'free' stroker setup.
The 1.7/1.8 is a significantly stronger crank, mostly due to more overlap from the larger rod journals,
But in a bus, it will never rev enough to make a difference.
Pushing a bus, stroke helps.
Yes,
You could take and have a 1.7/1.8 crank offset ground.
That's basically what the factory did.
But,
Dag,
Lot of cake to pack and ship it to DPR or someplace qualified.
Especially for something to be found lying in the back of a car or in a pile of motors or something at the junkyard.
The 2.0 takes a different piston (pin height) than the 1.7/1.8,
But you're usually going to be replacing P&L anyways..
A set of 1.7 heads on a 2.0 bottom end with 94 bus dished pistons makes for a nice little bump in compression, and a bit bigger valves, just right for a bus motor with a mild cam.
Same setup as the 'Cheap Junk' motor build in my sig..
If you have access to multiple core motors as we do,
It makes good sense to just pick the ones you want before starting the build.
As the 'wrong' parts will cost the same to do as the 'right' ones anyways.
Right?
_________________ Bus Motor Build
What’s That Noise?!? |
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Ceckert64 Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2015 Posts: 1957 Location: Manitowoc, WI
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Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:38 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4, 1700cc engine rebuild for a bus, what to do, suggestions |
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They were definitely a score! The Weber’s are Italian ones, they are made in Bologna Italy, a great price! Thank you for the vent information. I feel very stupide for this but the guy had the specs written down for the carbs and I didn’t get a picture of the specs and don’t have the guy’s contact information
I Haven’t settled on any valves yet but I will probably do 42x36 for them.
2 liter or not to 2 liter, tis the question it’s tempting, but I have already bought NOS 1.7L pistons with rings and pins. A 1.7L crank that may not even need machining. And cylinders that may just need a hone. I will probably stay 1.7 but I could still be convinced though. Do you have to open up the case for the 2L cylinders? But I can definitely find a good 2L crank at the junkyard.
I will start putting a list of things to order together. I think it will do the empi T-bird copy, I’m thinking web 86 cam (would something else be better?) I need a double thrust cam bearing kit, possibly an engine gasket kit, I might actually have one already, look for electronic ignition parts. _________________ 1964 sunroof Beetle Restoration "Herbie"
“Joann” 1970 Elm Green Squareback
1972 Sierra Yellow Tin Top Westfalia Camper
“Fitz” 1971 Westfalia Poptop
Last edited by Ceckert64 on Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:46 am; edited 1 time in total |
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calvinater Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2014 Posts: 3328 Location: 802 The Pointless Forrest
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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:49 am Post subject: Re: Type 4, 1700cc engine rebuild for a bus, what to do, suggestions |
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Last i heard , Bologna is in Italy. _________________ "Albatross"! |
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Ceckert64 Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2015 Posts: 1957 Location: Manitowoc, WI
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67rustavenger Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2015 Posts: 9756 Location: Oregon
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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:15 am Post subject: Re: Type 4, 1700cc engine rebuild for a bus, what to do, suggestions |
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Ceckert64 wrote: |
calvinater wrote: |
Last i heard , Bologna is in Italy. |
I think I need to take Geography again Thanks for pointing that out, I fixed it now |
I thought that you graduated this year.
If so. You need to return your diploma! Lol _________________ I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!
There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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Ceckert64 Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2015 Posts: 1957 Location: Manitowoc, WI
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21512 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:08 am Post subject: Re: Type 4, 1700cc engine rebuild for a bus, what to do, suggestions |
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calvinater wrote: |
Last i heard , Bologna is in Italy. |
But...I thought Bologna was an Island in the archipelago of Oscar Meyer....or maybe it was the straights of Hormel.....so confusing....
Ray |
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67rustavenger Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2015 Posts: 9756 Location: Oregon
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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:01 am Post subject: Re: Type 4, 1700cc engine rebuild for a bus, what to do, suggestions |
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Ceckert64 wrote: |
67rustavenger wrote: |
Ceckert64 wrote: |
calvinater wrote: |
Last i heard , Bologna is in Italy. |
I think I need to take Geography again Thanks for pointing that out, I fixed it now |
I thought that you graduated this year.
If so. You need to return your diploma! Lol |
Close, One more year, class of 2022! Somehow I’m at the top of my class I did learn in my engineering class this year how to degree a cam |
Ah! Then you are absolved of your geography sin.
You'll do well in life if you follow that engineering education through college.
I work with young bright engineers everyday. Most of them are very intelligent recent college grads. I'm glad to have these folks around.
Carry on! _________________ I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!
There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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orwell84 Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2007 Posts: 2536 Location: Plattsburgh, New York
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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:38 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4, 1700cc engine rebuild for a bus, what to do, suggestions |
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Jeez...those heater boxes. Nice score. I have been fiddly welding a set of heater boxes for ages. |
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Ceckert64 Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2015 Posts: 1957 Location: Manitowoc, WI
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Chickensoup Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018 Posts: 5368 Location: Good Hope, GA
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Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 11:15 am Post subject: Re: Type 4, 1700cc engine rebuild for a bus, what to do, suggestions |
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chambers look sand blasted.
Oh and thanks for picking up the carbs! _________________ -'85 c10 5.3 LS, 222 cam, long tubes, x pipe, 3 inch spin tech's
-'05 B5.5 TDI Wagon 17in sport rims ;EGR + BSM + ASV Delete, Stage-2 Tune, straight pipe
'65 Tourist Delivery Build
'66 RIP
'69 RIP
Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" |
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Ceckert64 Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2015 Posts: 1957 Location: Manitowoc, WI
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Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:16 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4, 1700cc engine rebuild for a bus, what to do, suggestions |
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I looked at the crank today, no scoring on it. But someone put two connecting rods backwards It’s definitely been rebuilt, I will check tomorrow to see if the crank is still standard or been machined. But I think the main bearings may have had STD on them… I will also check run-out on it. I think I’m going to go 2L or more. Got to have something that suits the carbs well, so I guess I have to go a little bigger
Notice all numbers on top
_________________ 1964 sunroof Beetle Restoration "Herbie"
“Joann” 1970 Elm Green Squareback
1972 Sierra Yellow Tin Top Westfalia Camper
“Fitz” 1971 Westfalia Poptop |
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Ceckert64 Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2015 Posts: 1957 Location: Manitowoc, WI
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