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Vanagon Bell Housing
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snowsyncro
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 10:58 am    Post subject: Re: Vanagon Bell Housing Reply with quote

@danfromsyr

I have enjoyed reading your posts about your mum's van; I really like that engine. I have three of those gas 2.5s here. Especially the story about you towing her halfway across the country, or was it the other way around? I forget.

danfromsyr wrote:

didn't know it would be as much on rotating mass as the explosive impulses of the fuel and cylinder conditions


Well that is a source of vibrations too, but a different source. It is not that the imbalance forces that we are talking about here are large -- it is that they are forcing a resonant vibration that is present because of the specific combination of engine mass, transaxle mass, and bellhousing stiffness (or lack thereof). There is very little structural damping present in that combination as well, resulting in a high sharpness of resonance (Q). If you are at the right RPM, it does not take much force to set up a large vibration.

The difference with your mum's van is that it is an automatic. It has a much stiffer (thick steel) bellhousing. Essentially that mimics the "fix" that the VW SA engineers came up with, i.e. stiffen the bellhousing.

And the torque convertor will help to damp the impulsive forces that you note above.

RonC
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AndyBees
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 11:22 am    Post subject: Re: Vanagon Bell Housing Reply with quote

I started with an OE Diesel Flywheel in my TDI install (clutch would slip)
Then I changed it for a G60 Flywheel from a 1997 Passat
Then I went to a DMF

Both the OE Diesel Flywheel and G60 had rattles at idle

The DMF has been awesome with respect to a quiet idle, smooth shifting, and virtually no resonance out on the road at any speed. In fact, after the DMF install I don't think about resonance anymore.

I sorta doubt a DMF will fit inside a SA bell housing.

Below, DMF on the left, G60 in the center and OE diesel on the right

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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MarkWard
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 11:23 am    Post subject: Re: Vanagon Bell Housing Reply with quote

The problem is in the Audi application, there was a nose mount to limit the belt side of the engine from moving up and down on accel and decel. Unlike a true inline engine, the torque is up and down not side to side. So, the vanagon transmission case is seeing loads it wasn't designed for. The original brace triangulated the bell housing to the case.

I had this problem with my TDI install, but added a torque mount after I had a friend following me. The engine was moving up and down at least an inch. My torque mount was fabricated from VW rabbit parts.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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Yota-toy
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 12:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Vanagon Bell Housing Reply with quote

Now the real story comes out!!! I am very glad to read about the lack of the 'nose' bushing and the idea that the engine's position is far different from the original could likely be a large part of this problem.
I'm sure it won't be much fun to fab a mount for the front of the eng. in the vanagon engine bay but it will be done prior to any lengthy driving. Most likely even before I start it for the first time.
I wonder what that 'special' destructive rpm is for the I5. Mostly likely the best for torque so it's sitting there all the time! A cummins 6BT can rev up to 7k, but if it hangs at 4100 (specifically) than the engine does actually grenade. I've seen it live at a truck pull and the driver saw the revs hang for a second and tried to shift but too late:(, no amount of winnings will bring that eng. back. Story's like that and the sweet durable 47RE trans are the two biggest reasons my truck does not get abused!!!! It has a power box set at level two (not 5) for pulling hills, not 30k/lb sleds for a $150 purse.

This is all great info.






MarkWard wrote:
The problem is in the Audi application, there was a nose mount to limit the belt side of the engine from moving up and down on accel and decel. Unlike a true inline engine, the torque is up and down not side to side. So, the vanagon transmission case is seeing loads it wasn't designed for. The original brace triangulated the bell housing to the case.

I had this problem with my TDI install, but added a torque mount after I had a friend following me. The engine was moving up and down at least an inch. My torque mount was fabricated from VW rabbit parts.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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?Waldo?
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 1:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Vanagon Bell Housing Reply with quote

AndyBees wrote:
I sorta doubt a DMF will fit inside a SA bell housing.


I doubt there is an input shaft that will fit the SA bell housing and the TDI clutch disc.
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danfromsyr
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 1:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Vanagon Bell Housing Reply with quote

indeed even my I4s could benefit from the nose 'torque' mount.
I get a 'hop' at a given RPM & load.. it's funny it's actually more pronounced with a cold motor.. ie. taking off from my driveway and trying to maintain the ~30mph speed limit of my road. it'll hop the engine some..
my suspect is that the cold run Ign timing creates or compounds the issue.
by the end (1.5mi) of my road it's fine and won't do it easily.. well maybe if I'm lugging it asking for more while going up a given % hill grade @ a given mph.
ie. like a scenic Mtn road (Mount Greylock, MA) or such I can 'trigger' the engine hop..
had it in my 1.8L I4 and my 1.8T I4 too. which have had different engine cradles and mounts..

iirc, there's at least one 4cyl install who put the 'torque' snubber on, but I can't recall whom.

fun fact that in the rear engine inline configuration the engine is actually trying to torque downward. vs Upward in the forward facing longitudinal installations.
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AndyBees
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2021 2:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Vanagon Bell Housing Reply with quote

?Waldo? wrote:
AndyBees wrote:
I sorta doubt a DMF will fit inside a SA bell housing.


I doubt there is an input shaft that will fit the SA bell housing and the TDI clutch disc.


A regular Vanagon Clutch Disc can be substituted with the DMF and that's what I did before installing a pilot shaft to accept the TDI disc
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Yota-toy
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 3:18 am    Post subject: Re: Vanagon Bell Housing Reply with quote

To anyone interested in this shaft from German Transaxle http://www.germantransaxle.com I was told by email that the shaft is no longer available (obsolete) and that the company has no leads on where to locate one.
Contacting Eurospec LA next.









MarkWard wrote:
No part number for the input shaft, but I searched my email and found this correspondence.

Thank you for the picture Mark,

Yes, we do have this part you are looking for. We are asking $250.00 plus shipping.

Please call 1-800-892-4327 if you would like to place this order.

Thank you,

Kateka

German Transaxle of America. [email protected]

Here is a picture I took comparing the diesel input shaft to the SA one that was shot.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


From my notes. Overall measurement is 12.75”
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crazyvwvanman
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 4:58 am    Post subject: Re: Vanagon Bell Housing Reply with quote

I think you have been led far astray.
AFAIK, the standard length transmission input shaft is typically used on 5 cyl conversions that use the South African bell housing.
I know both of my vans with 5 cyl conversions used the standard 298mm shaft.

I think the photo of the really long input shaft is for a Mexican 4 cyl bellhousing used on late bay window buses that used the inline 4 watercooled engine.

Mark
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danfromsyr
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 5:43 am    Post subject: Re: Vanagon Bell Housing Reply with quote

indeed the mexican bellhousing is definitely deeper than any of the others.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=717904
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Yota-toy
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:51 am    Post subject: Re: Vanagon Bell Housing Reply with quote

"I know both of my vans with 5 cyl conversions used the standard 298mm shaft.
"
Can you confirm what clutch configuration you used? I am hoping to keep the flywheel audi if possible.
Thank you

Could anyone with this conversion share coolant plumbing photo's?

crazyvwvanman wrote:
I think you have been led far astray.
AFAIK, the standard length transmission input shaft is typically used on 5 cyl conversions that use the South African bell housing.
I know both of my vans with 5 cyl conversions used the standard 298mm shaft.

I think the photo of the really long input shaft is for a Mexican 4 cyl bellhousing used on late bay window buses that used the inline 4 watercooled engine.

Mark
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crazyvwvanman
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 8:26 am    Post subject: Re: Vanagon Bell Housing Reply with quote

Mine used Audi flywheels and clutch pressure plates.
One was a 240mm and the other a 228mm.
I think the 240 friction disk was special and the 228 was a Vanagon friction disc.
It has been a while.....

Mark


Yota-toy wrote:
......Can you confirm what clutch configuration you used? I am hoping to keep the flywheel audi if possible. .......

crazyvwvanman wrote:
I think you have been led far astray.
AFAIK, the standard length transmission input shaft is typically used on 5 cyl conversions that use the South African bell housing.
I know both of my vans with 5 cyl conversions used the standard 298mm shaft........
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danfromsyr
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:36 am    Post subject: Re: Vanagon Bell Housing Reply with quote

fwiw I have the 2.5l EV 5cyl flywheel and clutch parts. but iirc and according to rock auto they're 228mm. which does mean you can use improved stage 1 or stage 2 clutch discs fairly easily. it's a heavy beast so probably alot of rotating mass like the diesel likes.
https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/volkswagen,199...disc,10605

not sure if it's relevant but just adding to the 5cyl BH conversation details
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