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Silver65 Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2020 Posts: 127
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Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:12 pm Post subject: timing for a 65, 40hp 1200cc 205M? |
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I have a 65, with a 111906 205M which I believe is also the ZV/JU 4 R 3. I saw two different timing suggestions which are: 10D-BTDC and 7.5D-BTDC, which one is correct?
thanks! |
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Sharp64 Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2015 Posts: 5304 Location: Central Florida
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Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:26 pm Post subject: Re: timing for a 65, 40hp 1200cc 205M? |
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10* Static
This is what I always reference:
https://web.archive.org/web/20170811040030/http://www.oldvolkshome.com/ignition.htm#A1965 _________________ 1960 Indigo Blue Ragtop (Blue Barry)
1967 Ghia
1985 Westy Money Pit
“...some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.” - Michael Caine |
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Mervo Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2016 Posts: 75 Location: Australia
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Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:52 pm Post subject: Re: timing for a 65, 40hp 1200cc 205M? |
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I almost never look at static timing and use max advance as the guide as that is where the engine operates. The M, K and other variants of this distributor all have different recommended max advance. Important to get right to prevent any pinking. _________________ 1962 Porsche 356
1968 Porsche 911 (sold)
1988 Porsche 911
2004 Porsche Turbo
1960 VW beetle (Australian) |
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Sharp64 Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2015 Posts: 5304 Location: Central Florida
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Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:56 pm Post subject: Re: timing for a 65, 40hp 1200cc 205M? |
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Use static to get it running. Hard to time all in if it won’t start _________________ 1960 Indigo Blue Ragtop (Blue Barry)
1967 Ghia
1985 Westy Money Pit
“...some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.” - Michael Caine |
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T-F-E Samba Member
Joined: September 17, 2019 Posts: 68 Location: Norway
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Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 5:39 am Post subject: Re: timing for a 65, 40hp 1200cc 205M? |
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10° before TDC is correct for this distributor. If I remember correctly maximum advance should be somewhere between 28° and 32°. If you time it with a strobelight the vacuum line should be disconnected and plugged. And remember to make sure that the advance plate returns all the way back. They can get a bit sticky after many years of use. The 205M came in 1964 just like the Z/V JU4R3. To my knowledge they are pretty much identical. I have the JU4R3 on my car and it works very good. I usually static time it first. Then I warm up the car and double check with a strobe light. The static timing is usually very correct, but the strobelight often show that it needs to be advanced a tiny bit more. _________________ 1971 1302S - Miss Blue
1963 1200 - Old lady red
1973 Type 2 Panel - Helga Hippie container
1979 Mercedes 230 - Fraulein Grün the star pig |
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Frederik Samba Member
Joined: August 18, 2007 Posts: 578 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 4:15 pm Post subject: Re: timing for a 65, 40hp 1200cc 205M? |
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It is a great page, but do have errors in the data. For example you shouldn't take the advance specifications as always true. Some are for some other distributor listed as "can be used" and sometimes just wrong.
ZV/JU 4 R 3, 111 905 205 M, N, 211 905 205 L and 113 905 205 J has the same vacuum advance: starts @18-24mmHg, 12-18deg @40mmHg and ends at 16-22deg @50mmHg (+ initial setting of 10deg and you should have about 26-32 max advance at the crank). |
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tasb The Distributor Distributor
Joined: April 27, 2002 Posts: 6371 Location: Pentwater, Michigan
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Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:33 pm Post subject: Re: timing for a 65, 40hp 1200cc 205M? |
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We are working with a vacuum advance only distributor. If you disconnect the vacuum you will have 0 spark advance. Static time 10 degrees BTDC.
Correct, the ZV/JU 4 R 3 and the 111 905 205 M are the same distributor. In mid 1964 (March) Bosch changed their part numbering system.
As to Fredericks list above, the 113 905 205 J is a non Bosch distributor made by Garbe Lahmeyer. _________________ Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018
1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc
1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse
Last edited by tasb on Sun Jun 27, 2021 2:52 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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T-F-E Samba Member
Joined: September 17, 2019 Posts: 68 Location: Norway
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Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 3:14 am Post subject: Re: timing for a 65, 40hp 1200cc 205M? |
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Yes, if you use a strobelight to set the timing at max advance the vacuum line must be connected. But when the strobelight is used it to set the timing at idle I always disconnect the vacuum to make sure that the carburetor isn't pulling at the advance plate. If it is pulling the advance while we set the timing at idle, the distributor won't be able to give enough advance at higher rpm. _________________ 1971 1302S - Miss Blue
1963 1200 - Old lady red
1973 Type 2 Panel - Helga Hippie container
1979 Mercedes 230 - Fraulein Grün the star pig |
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tasb The Distributor Distributor
Joined: April 27, 2002 Posts: 6371 Location: Pentwater, Michigan
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Posted: Sat Jun 26, 2021 8:43 pm Post subject: Re: timing for a 65, 40hp 1200cc 205M? |
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Hope it's ok to disagree on procedures it's nothing personal. The specs for the vacuum only distributors is static timing not at idle. i would consider idle timing (if any advanced)on a vac only distributor a curiosity. _________________ Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018
1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc
1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse |
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tasb The Distributor Distributor
Joined: April 27, 2002 Posts: 6371 Location: Pentwater, Michigan
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Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2021 2:41 pm Post subject: Re: timing for a 65, 40hp 1200cc 205M? |
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T-F-E wrote: |
10° before TDC is correct for this distributor. If I remember correctly maximum advance should be somewhere between 28° and 32°. If you time it with a strobelight the vacuum line should be disconnected and plugged. And remember to make sure that the advance plate returns all the way back. They can get a bit sticky after many years of use. The 205M came in 1964 just like the Z/V JU4R3. To my knowledge they are pretty much identical. I have the JU4R3 on my car and it works very good. I usually static time it first. Then I warm up the car and double check with a strobe light. The static timing is usually very correct, but the strobelight often show that it needs to be advanced a tiny bit more. |
The 111 905 205 M came out in 1964 ( March which is seven months in to 1964 model year to be exact). The 113 905 205 M came out in 1968. Its important to know and identify correctly, which distributor is being discussed. I recognize that you may know the difference but the majority of the readers of this topic probably don't know the difference. _________________ Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018
1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc
1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse |
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rcroane Samba Member
Joined: January 03, 2013 Posts: 2000 Location: Springfield, Virginia
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Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:10 pm Post subject: Re: timing for a 65, 40hp 1200cc 205M? |
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tasb wrote: |
Hope it's ok to disagree on procedures it's nothing personal. The specs for the vacuum only distributors is static timing not at idle. i would consider idle timing (if any advanced)on a vac only distributor a curiosity. |
Tasb....can you explain this further? I've always static timed my 111 905 205M at 10 degrees BTDC at idle. Is that not the correct method? If not, what is the correct method?
Thanks. _________________ '65 Sunroof Bug |
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tasb The Distributor Distributor
Joined: April 27, 2002 Posts: 6371 Location: Pentwater, Michigan
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Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2021 10:13 pm Post subject: Re: timing for a 65, 40hp 1200cc 205M? |
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From a 1963 owners manual.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/63bugowners/page60-61.jpg
If the distributor is designed to give spark advance at idle you will be timing your engine somewhat retarded. That's why VW uses static (engine not running). I guess it would qualify as a bad habit that could get you into trouble. This applies to vacuum advance only distributors. Always a good practice to verify you are not exceeding 32 degrees advance at full throttle. For the same reason you don't want to time a distributor with mechanical advance at idle, you time it at full throttle. _________________ Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018
1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc
1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse
Last edited by tasb on Sun Jun 27, 2021 10:20 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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tasb The Distributor Distributor
Joined: April 27, 2002 Posts: 6371 Location: Pentwater, Michigan
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Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2021 10:15 pm Post subject: Re: timing for a 65, 40hp 1200cc 205M? |
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rcroane wrote: |
tasb wrote: |
Hope it's ok to disagree on procedures it's nothing personal. The specs for the vacuum only distributors is static timing not at idle. i would consider idle timing (if any advanced)on a vac only distributor a curiosity. |
Tasb....can you explain this further? I've always static timed my 111 905 205M at 10 degrees BTDC at idle. Is that not the correct method? If not, what is the correct method?
Thanks. |
So which is it? static or idle? can't be both at the same time. _________________ Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018
1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc
1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse |
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rcroane Samba Member
Joined: January 03, 2013 Posts: 2000 Location: Springfield, Virginia
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Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2021 3:36 am Post subject: Re: timing for a 65, 40hp 1200cc 205M? |
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tasb wrote: |
rcroane wrote: |
tasb wrote: |
Hope it's ok to disagree on procedures it's nothing personal. The specs for the vacuum only distributors is static timing not at idle. i would consider idle timing (if any advanced)on a vac only distributor a curiosity. |
Tasb....can you explain this further? I've always static timed my 111 905 205M at 10 degrees BTDC at idle. Is that not the correct method? If not, what is the correct method?
Thanks. |
So which is it? static or idle? can't be both at the same time. |
Ugh..I'm an idiot. Don't know what I was thinking when I wrote that... _________________ '65 Sunroof Bug |
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tasb The Distributor Distributor
Joined: April 27, 2002 Posts: 6371 Location: Pentwater, Michigan
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Posted: Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:35 am Post subject: Re: timing for a 65, 40hp 1200cc 205M? |
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Mervo wrote: |
I almost never look at static timing and use max advance as the guide as that is where the engine operates. The M, K and other variants of this distributor all have different recommended max advance. Important to get right to prevent any pinking. |
VW used six different vacuum canisters from 1959 through 1970. This was the period when they utilized vacuum only advance with only a few exceptions. All of the canisters were designed to deliver no more than 32 degrees of maximum advance.
1959 canister # 200 used for 6 months same specs as the 36 hp Beetle (113) canister
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1960 canister # 201 used for 6 months threaded pipe otherwise same as 07015
1960-64 # 07015(201) used on all models types 1-3 slip on vacuum pipe
1964-66 # 204 small saucer shape all above nearly same specs 10 BTDC static
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1966-67 #210 larger canister originally ribbed back, 7-8 BTDC static
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1968-70 # 279 same size as 210 no ribs different spec 0 TDC static
The first two on the list are quite rare so argument can be made that only 4 were used from 1960 to 1970. Only three different static timing settings were used 1959-70.
Two exceptions were the mechanical only advance distributors were used on the Bus through 1960 and the SVDA used on the 1964 type III 1500 S model whose canister has the same specs as the 36 hp Beetle but has a slip on vacuum pipe (#271). The list can be expanded easily to include 1953-1970 by including the canister # 113 used with the Beetle from 1953-1960 with minor variation, which was also an SVDA. Other SVDA's started showing up in 1968 on Auto stick cars. _________________ Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018
1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc
1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse |
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VWNate Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2016 Posts: 356 Location: Sunny So. Cal.
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Posted: Tue May 02, 2023 1:06 pm Post subject: Full Advance Timing The '59 Typ II W/ 36HP Engine |
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I see lots of good info here,
I'd like to time my 36HP and BOSCH 019 Dist. to the full advance but am not sure where to set the advance knob on my stroboscopic timing light so the 'V notch in the crank pulley lines up at full advance....
I hope this makes sense, I always use this dynamic timing light and the TDC mark to set 1600's .
TIA, _________________ -Nate
One last Beetle : 1959 #113 DeLuxe survivor ~ 36HP & full synchro tranny, 6 volts etc. |
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mukluk Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2012 Posts: 7023 Location: Clyde, TX
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Posted: Tue May 02, 2023 11:15 pm Post subject: Re: Full Advance Timing The '59 Typ II W/ 36HP Engine |
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VWNate wrote: |
I see lots of good info here,
I'd like to time my 36HP and BOSCH 019 Dist. to the full advance but am not sure where to set the advance knob on my stroboscopic timing light so the 'V notch in the crank pulley lines up at full advance....
I hope this makes sense, I always use this dynamic timing light and the TDC mark to set 1600's .
TIA, |
Set the advance knob to whatever the full advance position is you desire, minus the static timing mark degrees. For example, if you want to have 30° BTDC full in and the static timing mark is 10° BTDC, you'd set your advance knob to 20°. _________________ 1960 Ragtop w/Semaphores "Inga" |
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VWNate Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2016 Posts: 356 Location: Sunny So. Cal.
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Posted: Wed May 03, 2023 4:44 pm Post subject: Re: timing for a 65, 40hp 1200cc |
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Thanx, I used the advance dial to see what I get when timed at the single (7.5BTDC ?) notch, this says 24.5 all in . _________________ -Nate
One last Beetle : 1959 #113 DeLuxe survivor ~ 36HP & full synchro tranny, 6 volts etc. |
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