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GS guy Samba Member
Joined: December 03, 2007 Posts: 967 Location: Maryland
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Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:01 am Post subject: Re: Rack and Pinion for Kustom Bugs? |
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Maybe something like this kit? No idea about the general quality/durability or steering ratio of this rack - maybe something to ask in the off road forum?
https://www.chircoestore.com/product/dune-buggy-he...g-package/
Pay particular attention to the turns lock to lock (as noted 2-7/8 with VW box) and how much the rack travels per turn. Good idea to keep the travel per turn ratio close to the stock steering box - I measured at 2.04" per turn (chord measurement @ tie rod pivot center on pitman arm). Note this increases to 2.5"/turn with the typical "quick-steer" steering box adapter.
Jeff _________________ 70's vintage Deserter GS buggy - undergoing transformation to Super GS! |
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Ulu Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2020 Posts: 711 Location: CenCal
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:10 pm Post subject: Re: Rack and Pinion for Kustom Bugs? |
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Thank you GS guy.
I will check it out. They don’t show any specifications but I left a call at their office.
I measured the stabilizer motion at 5.25” @ ~ 2.4 turns achievable.
This gives me ~2-3/16” so very close to your observations. _________________ SS100 kit kar
1600cc DP |
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mikemck Samba Member
Joined: June 01, 2006 Posts: 306
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Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:43 pm Post subject: Re: Rack and Pinion for Kustom Bugs? |
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I installed the kit from Alex77 in my Speedster replica. The total cost was about $700.
I had to modify the beam to let the rack move farther to the left to align with my steering column. I had to cut away the bracket that holds the pitman arm stops and grind off one of the bumps that locates the steering box clamp. Now the clamp is right up against the grease fitting.
My steering column shaft is already 3" back from stock but I will have to shorten it more.
I am using a Kia Sedona, 2002 - 2005, u-joint. It seems to have the right diameter and matching number of splines. |
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Ulu Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2020 Posts: 711 Location: CenCal
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Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:36 pm Post subject: Re: Rack and Pinion for Kustom Bugs? |
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This will truly be much easier on my car because the wheel base is so much longer. I can put the steering gear almost anywhere I want. _________________ SS100 kit kar
1600cc DP |
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Ulu Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2020 Posts: 711 Location: CenCal
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Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:57 pm Post subject: Re: Rack and Pinion for Kustom Bugs? |
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GS guy wrote: |
Maybe something like this kit? No idea about the general quality/durability or steering ratio of this rack - maybe something to ask in the off road forum?
https://www.chircoestore.com/product/dune-buggy-he...g-package/
Pay particular attention to the turns lock to lock (as noted 2-7/8 with VW box) and how much the rack travels per turn. Good idea to keep the travel per turn ratio close to the stock steering box - I measured at 2.04" per turn (chord measurement @ tie rod pivot center on pitman arm). Note this increases to 2.5"/turn with the typical "quick-steer" steering box adapter.
Jeff |
I got a call back about that steering rack kit, and as it turns out the only one they had is one turn lock to lock, and the travel is 2 inches too short for my steering arms, at 3.5” _________________ SS100 kit kar
1600cc DP |
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GS guy Samba Member
Joined: December 03, 2007 Posts: 967 Location: Maryland
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Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:18 am Post subject: Re: Rack and Pinion for Kustom Bugs? |
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That's a bummer! Seems like since the closing of ERCO there's been a run on off-road steering racks.
In my rack research the ERCO style center take-off racks looked the easiest to adapt to a beam front end. Most other aftermarket racks are end take off (tie rods at the ends of the rack) and more prone to bump steer issues. OEM racks, particularly manual racks, tend to have slower steering ratios unless it's a power rack (requiring conversion to manual). Also the center steer racks (typical FWD cars) typically have the tie rod connection on the front side of the rack which is problematic when locating the rack close to the upper beam tube. One work around:
http://www.blindchickenracing.com/How_to/powerrack/powerrack.htm
The only other seemingly "adaptable" aftermarket center take off rack I've found is made by Unisteer. I don't see this rack available separately, but manual versions are in some of their muscle car conversion kits. Not cheap!
I think the simplest affordable rack to adapt, besides the SACO, is the early manual Rabbit, Scirocco rack. While it is an end-load rack, it can be made to work fairly well with careful positioning and typical street car limited suspension movement. Having driven a street buggy with said rack, I couldn't detect any bump steer issues, only that it required a little more turning of the wheel (not quick ratio steering). I think there were quicker ratio pinions available for this rack, just takes more $$.
Jeff _________________ 70's vintage Deserter GS buggy - undergoing transformation to Super GS! |
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Ulu Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2020 Posts: 711 Location: CenCal
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Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:22 pm Post subject: Re: Rack and Pinion for Kustom Bugs? |
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@gs guy
Thanks for the linkage Guy!
I am not building a standard bug, and I have a lot of room to move the steering rack away from the beam towards the driver. The Beretta rack looks like a real possibility. _________________ SS100 kit kar
1600cc DP |
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Ulu Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2020 Posts: 711 Location: CenCal
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Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:32 pm Post subject: Re: Rack and Pinion for Kustom Bugs? |
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mikemck wrote: |
I installed the kit from Alex77 in my Speedster replica. The total cost was about $700.
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Looks like Alex had been AWOL for a year or so. I will look a bit more…
mikemck wrote: |
I had to modify the beam to let the rack move farther to the left to align with my steering column. I had to cut away the bracket that holds the pitman arm stops and grind off one . |
This is where mine is now (to the left) and I am hoping to move it to the right considerably.
If I just take the stock steering gear and move it to the middle of the beam and then equalize the tie rods. and get rid of the steering stabilizer, I will probably have a workable suspension: but the top of the steering gear is going to have to protrude through a hole in the front fiberglass apron right in front of the fake radiator. I guess I could polish the top or buy a chrome one to make it look more antique maybe. _________________ SS100 kit kar
1600cc DP |
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mikemck Samba Member
Joined: June 01, 2006 Posts: 306
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Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 9:06 am Post subject: Re: Rack and Pinion for Kustom Bugs? |
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I haven't driven the car since installing the rack and just discovered a new issue.
When I turned the steering wheel the horn honked.
I installed the rack with a single u-joint. Things aren't perfectly aligned and when I turn the wheel the end of the steering shaft moves around. At one point the shaft touches the side of the tube causing the horn to honk.
So, I am going to install a Super Beetle bushing in the bottom of the tube and a double u-joint. |
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Ulu Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2020 Posts: 711 Location: CenCal
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Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 11:57 am Post subject: Re: Rack and Pinion for Kustom Bugs? |
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I just made a bushing like that for my column from some high density polyethylene. I have a stupid little lathe that I built mostly for sanding and polishing. It’s adequate for making small wooden knobs or in this case a plastic bushing. _________________ SS100 kit kar
1600cc DP |
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EVfun Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012 Posts: 5446 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 12:35 pm Post subject: Re: Rack and Pinion for Kustom Bugs? |
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Instead of making a bushing for the bottom of my steering column I installed a '62-'67 steering column bearing, available cheap at any good VW parts house. Instead of the preload spring I used a short piece of 3/4 inch schedule 10 pipe. It had about the same ID and OD as the spring that comes with the bearing. I held it in place with a split shaft collar. Once the lower bearing is installed with the steering wheel and turn signal switch already installed at the other end you get a completely self contained steering column that doesn't need adjustment during installation.
I have a strait extension instead of U-joints.
_________________
Wildthings wrote: |
As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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Ulu Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2020 Posts: 711 Location: CenCal
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Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 2:42 pm Post subject: Re: Rack and Pinion for Kustom Bugs? |
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That is basically all I had. A rag joint At the gearbox and the top bearing at the steering wheel, and nothing in between but a shaft extended with tubing. _________________ SS100 kit kar
1600cc DP |
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EVfun Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012 Posts: 5446 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 3:12 pm Post subject: Re: Rack and Pinion for Kustom Bugs? |
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Is your setup a strait shot between the steering box and steering wheel? If so you could do what I did. The rag joint is made from 2, using the female half of 1 on both sides. The extension shaft is 5/8 inch solid with carefully filed grooves in each end for the steering pinch clamp bolt. My steering column tube is not bolted to anything (the stock one wasn't either.) With my self contained column it just passes through a grommet in the dash.
With the lower steering box angle, required to reach the farther back seating position, the long the rod can lay on the tunnel at full suspension drop -- so what. Only the unsprung weight at that corner attempts to bend the long the rod and it seems to have not managed to do so on mine in what must be 10 years. It is touching the stock cone snubber when the rod stops downward suspension travel. I can't feel any extra effort from those rare occasions where I have to drag the rod over the frame. About the only time you could even test that limit is a hard right turn, when it is hardest to hit that limit. More bad form than driving danger. _________________
Wildthings wrote: |
As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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dustymojave Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007 Posts: 5802 Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:53 pm Post subject: Re: Rack and Pinion for Kustom Bugs? |
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Just so you know, there are several brands of offroad racks other than the late SACO.
Latest Rage makes one that I have on my Chenowth tube frame buggy.
It's an imitation of the Wright original offroad rack and pinion. Works fine on my buggy. The SACO is a take-off design from the Wright. It looks different, but inside and functionally is the same.
You MAY need to mount it lower and connect the tie rod ends from below the steering arms.
Another possibility might be the Chevy steering rack for the Beretta and Corsica. it's a Center load rack, with the pinion off to the left side. It usually gets modified to work on a Baja Bug. Not sure if it would need that for your car. Power steering was optional on those, so I believe some are with power and some are without. _________________ Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet. |
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Ulu Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2020 Posts: 711 Location: CenCal
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Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:55 am Post subject: Re: Rack and Pinion for Kustom Bugs? |
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EVfun wrote: |
Is your setup a strait shot between the steering box and steering wheel? |
Thank you for your reply.
Yes, it is a straight shot, but it is ugly because that straight tube sticks outside the bodywork right by the chrome radiator. The chrome is a curse because you see the ugliness twice!
Anyhow, my box is rotated down 9* and slid sideways 1/4”. What they did was cut the collapsible part out of the steering shaft, slide the ends into a piece of tubing, drill thru holes, and bolt it together.
I have a gutted VW column, bolted to a 1x1x6 angle bracket. That is bolted thru the instrument panel which is 1 inch thick wood and fiberglass. Pretty solid, and the steering felt solid while driving. The tube was also clamped with a hokey homemade arrangement, to the fiberglass firewall.
Quote: |
the long the rod can lay on the tunnel at full suspension drop -- so what… |
I don’t have this issue because my car has a bolt-on frame head extension, which lengthens the wheel base, and it has plenty of clearance built-in.
_________________ SS100 kit kar
1600cc DP |
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Ulu Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2020 Posts: 711 Location: CenCal
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Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 9:14 am Post subject: Re: Rack and Pinion for Kustom Bugs? |
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Well my photograph doesn’t show the hokey clamp arrangement I wanted to show. Anyhow it is history.
dustymojave wrote: |
. . . there are several brands of offroad racks other than the late SACO. Latest Rage makes . . . an imitation of the Wright. . . SACO is a take-off design from the Wright.. . .
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Thank you so much for this data! This probably means getting seals and such will be easier.
Your rack looks exactly like the one offered by three companies I have contacted. In each case, the overall travel of the rack was shorter than required, in order to use the Volkswagen steering knuckles without modifying the arms. It would of course work if I were to suffer the reduced turning circle but you must understand that my wheelbase is 13.5 inches over a stock bug.
Quote: |
You MAY need to mount it lower and connect the tie rod ends from below the steering arms. |
It would be a unique custom mount. No buggy is built this way.
Quote: |
Another possibility might be the Chevy steering rack for the Beretta and Corsica. it's a Center load rack, with the pinion off to the left side. It usually gets modified to work on a Baja Bug. Not sure if it would need that for your car. Power steering was optional on those, so I believe some are with power and some are without. |
Thanks again. I will look into that rack because I know I can convert the power rack to manual and get a faster steering ratio. I expect that it will be fairly inexpensive as well. I’m assuming the Corsica has the steering arms behind the spindle like a Volkswagen. _________________ SS100 kit kar
1600cc DP |
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EVfun Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012 Posts: 5446 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:11 pm Post subject: Re: Rack and Pinion for Kustom Bugs? |
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Ulu wrote: |
EVfun wrote: |
Is your setup a strait shot between the steering box and steering wheel? |
Thank you for your reply.
Yes, it is a straight shot, but it is ugly because that straight tube sticks outside the bodywork right by the chrome radiator. The chrome is a curse because you see the ugliness twice!
Anyhow, my box is rotated down 9* and slid sideways 1/4”. What they did was cut the collapsible part out of the steering shaft, slide the ends into a piece of tubing, drill thru holes, and bolt it together.
I have a gutted VW column, bolted to a 1x1x6 angle bracket. That is bolted thru the instrument panel which is 1 inch thick wood and fiberglass. Pretty solid, and the steering felt solid while driving. The tube was also clamped with a hokey homemade arrangement, to the fiberglass firewall.
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It looks like you are finding some leads on a rack setup. If you go that route you may be able to glass shut that steering rod cut out.
Or... Maybe you could make that feature look good. It sounds like the only reason a bolt is visible at the bottom is the way they extended the shaft. If you put a female rag joint coupler on at the top of the box you could extend the shaft all the way to the next clamp at the rag joint that isn't visible. If you cut the slot and notch into your steering shaft (or replace it with a good used one) the exposed steering shaft can be a nice section of 5/8 inch stainless steel rod. That could be brushed or polished as desired to look good where it is exposed. With no fasteners visible from the outside either it could be a nice look that blends into a vehicle of the era your kit body represents.
It's just an idea I'm tossing out. I tend to try and work with stock parts, readily available parts from another car, or common aftermarket parts. It makes taking care of things easier down the road. I came up with my Berry Mini-T system largely out of a desire for something solid with mostly stock parts and no welding to my steering shaft. _________________
Wildthings wrote: |
As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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Ulu Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2020 Posts: 711 Location: CenCal
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Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:23 pm Post subject: Re: Rack and Pinion for Kustom Bugs? |
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I will conceal that ugly hole, even if all I do is make a leather boot to cover the uglies. _________________ SS100 kit kar
1600cc DP |
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texastomeh Samba Member
Joined: November 20, 2018 Posts: 291 Location: Dallas, TX
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Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 4:46 pm Post subject: Re: Rack and Pinion for Kustom Bugs? |
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Ulu,
Pls keep us updated as (if?) this continues to progress!
I have had a replica BUGATTI Type 35 for a couple of years and would be very interested in converting to Rack and Pinion. I looked into it a while back, but more pressing issues have forced it to the back burner. Right now I am in the middle of a new (Aluminum case and all!) 1776 build.
With the Type 35, I have sorta' the same issues that you are wrestling with - except for the Boolean Algebra.
THANX, and stay well!!
Tom _________________ A new engine build won't solve ALL of life's problems - only those THAT REALLY MATTER!!!
GETTING old was GREAT - BEING old SUCKS!!
Too bad that the guys that know how to solve all of the WORLD's problems are too busy working on old Volkswagens!! |
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Ulu Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2020 Posts: 711 Location: CenCal
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Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:59 am Post subject: Re: Rack and Pinion for Kustom Bugs? |
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I have come to the conclusion that this is not the time to convert the steering on my car.
There are a couple reasons that I have decided this, and one of them is money. I have still not bought a MIG (nor many other things) for this project. I only have Victor gas torches at this point. No arc, though I did put in the $$$ 50amp 240v wiring needed. Also more circuits for grinders etc.
But of course that’s not all…not even the tip of the iceberg.
I had one daughter get divorced this year and another one get married and buy a house. I had two grandkids graduate high school and two others got married. When I added up all the birthdays and Christmases too (8 grandkids etc) I spent enough to buy a nice base model Tesla.
But I would never buy a Tesla. The company is not big enough for the promise of good support. I would’ve bought another Toyota product.
Which brings up the second reason I chose not to convert at this point. I don’t know how many millions of Volkswagen steering gear boxes were produced but there were a lot. I’m guessing somewhere around 30 million. Cheap replacement parts should never be an issue.
You cannot buy parts for a Tesla at all. They simply will not sell parts to you. I understand there has been some waffling on this policy but that’s all it has been to my understanding. Anyhow I don’t wanna wind up with an orphan device at this point.
Owning an AC VW is nowadays close enough.
_________________ SS100 kit kar
1600cc DP |
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