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Shifter issues after replacing nose cone
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lumbee
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:47 am    Post subject: Shifter issues after replacing nose cone Reply with quote

Hey folks! I have a '56 ragtop that has an early 60's transmission in it. To make it fit correctly I used a 211 301 205H nosecone. You can read that thread here: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=754438.

Its all back together now, but I can seem to find all the gears. After locking everything down with the coupler, the shifter is sitting to left and I can only seem to find two gears. I'm not sure if its 1st and 2nd or 3rd and 4th. Here is a pic of what the shifter looks like. You can see how its tilted to the left. Then back at the coupler, as I rotate it in what I think is neutral it seems to be moving between about 12 and 2 o'clock, rather than being centered and moving between 11 and 1 o'clock. Hope that all makes sense. I'm really hoping I don't have to pull the motor and trans again and I'm trying to troubleshoot this as much as I can before doing that.

Here is a video of the couple moving side to side:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/cwVyFj6H9xDP3iA86

Here is a pic of how the shifter seems to be sitting to the left:


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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sgmalt46
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:19 am    Post subject: Re: Shifter issues after replacing nose cone Reply with quote

you are only getting 1st and 2nd. probably messed up putting the nosecone on. 3-4 selector or reverse selector are not in neutral ? all 3 need to be even like in pic. gonna have to come out I think. Crying or Very sad
does it go in and out? I see it goes side to side .
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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lumbee
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 10:53 am    Post subject: Re: Shifter issues after replacing nose cone Reply with quote

Yes, the dogs were all lined up when I put it together, and yes, it'll go in/out of gears...but just two. It goes side to side, but I can't seem to move it over and find the other two gears and no reverse.

I'm just trying to figure out how I could have put it together wrong. Could I have bout the wrong "hockey stick"? There is only one model/version of those right?
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lumbee
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 10:55 am    Post subject: Re: Shifter issues after replacing nose cone Reply with quote

Also, do you have a better picture than the one you posted? That one is to blurry to see any detail.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Shifter issues after replacing nose cone Reply with quote

ok .do you have the car running yet or just checking before you start it ?
if one of the 3-4 or reverse selector is not even with the 1-2 like the pic.
(sorry it's blurry.) it would be stuck in one of those gears. most likely .
could be the crappy empi hockey stick I warned you about? not drilled
correctly? you can take the shift coupler off and try to shift it with vise grips
to see if you can shift all gears . before you go taking anything apart.
easy enough to try. before you do anything crazy.
Steve
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lumbee
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 5:20 am    Post subject: Re: Shifter issues after replacing nose cone Reply with quote

No...not running yet. Yes, just trying to sort of the trans before getting it running again...unless you think a running motor would help the situation. Its sat for a few years...so not sure how quickly I can get it running again. Right now I'm not getting any power when I turn it on, so I need to sort that out.

FWIW I compared the old hockey stick to the new one and they looked identical...including the drilled divots (I think) Embarassed Honestly not sure about the brand....no one had them so I bought it where I could find it.

I'll remove the coupler and see if I can work it loose with some vice grips. I half way tried that already, but can't hurt if I'm pulling it all apart again (which I made peace with at 3am last night Shocked )

I'm a knucklehead; I should have connected the shifter and sorted all this out before putting the transaxles/wheels and motor back in. Rolling Eyes
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sgmalt46
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:43 am    Post subject: Re: Shifter issues after replacing nose cone Reply with quote

well since you haven't started it yet roll the car or turn the motor over by hand
with what seems to be neutral . and see if it is in A gear. I have done the same thing before . somehow knocked one of the selectors in/out putting the nosecone on . Embarassed
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lumbee
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:44 am    Post subject: Re: Shifter issues after replacing nose cone Reply with quote

sgmalt46 wrote:
well since you haven't started it yet roll the car or turn the motor over by hand
with what seems to be neutral . and see if it is in A gear. I have done the same thing before . somehow knocked one of the selectors in/out putting the nosecone on . Embarassed


Yep did this...and I can definitely go into neutral and one or two other gears.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 8:24 am    Post subject: Re: Shifter issues after replacing nose cone Reply with quote

...also, huge puddle of gear oil on the floor that appears to be coming from the nose cone. I make sure the mating surfaces were clean and flat and only replaced the paper gasket. Should I have used some rtv to seal it?
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:36 am    Post subject: Re: Shifter issues after replacing nose cone Reply with quote

lumbee wrote:
...also, huge puddle of gear oil on the floor that appears to be coming from the nose cone. I make sure the mating surfaces were clean and flat and only replaced the paper gasket. Should I have used some rtv to seal it?


Sorry if I am jumping in, but......I am!

Sounds like you need to verify if you can select different gears. There are 3 shift fork dogs that sit side by side, inside the nose cone. You can remove the shift coupler from the shifter rod, under the inspection plate, and push the shift rod, going to the shifter, out of the way. Then grab onto the, still attached to the transmission hockey stick, shift coupler (this will give you a slight amount of leverage) and try to shift through the gears. You should be able to twist the coupler about 3/4" in overall travel (I have never measured this, just going off of memory). At each end of the travel is a shift fork, and one more at the very middle. If you can envision that travel in the stick, then imagine it going into each end of the selector fork ends. 2 of the ends can go forwards and backwards. 1 of the ends will only go forwards (thats reverse, I believe it is on the bottom.

Here is what is inside the nose cone.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


And the side.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


All three forks need to be in alignment or the selector rod will not travel to each of them.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Make sense?
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lumbee
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:45 am    Post subject: Re: Shifter issues after replacing nose cone Reply with quote

Yep...makes sense Jim...again...tried it and I just don't seem to be getting the rotation of the shaft when in neutral, so as much as it pains me the only thing I know to do is take it all apart. I'll let you know the result.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Shifter issues after replacing nose cone Reply with quote

lumbee wrote:
Yep...makes sense Jim...again...tried it and I just don't seem to be getting the rotation of the shaft when in neutral, so as much as it pains me the only thing I know to do is take it all apart. I'll let you know the result.


That sucks! I was hoping that maybe a different way of saying it all may make it, make more sense, in an effort to keep you from pulling the motor!

FWIW. You do not need to take the transmission out fully. And you can leave it in the car. If you get two, 2 foot 3/8" steel rods, you can remove the rear fork bolts, one at a time and slide the steel rods through the mount plate and into the fork end, where the bolt was. Then take the two nuts off of the front transmission cover to front mount, and slide the entire transmission back 4 inches to remove the front cover in the car! Might save you a few hours of work! Be sure to support the front of the transmission with a jack, so that the axle boots do not get compromised!

Good luck!
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Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look.


67rustavenger wrote:
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 27, 2021 1:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Shifter issues after replacing nose cone Reply with quote

OK...got it all out (its amazing how fast it all comes out the 2nd time around) and I think I see the issue. As I mentioned, the divot on the hockey stick is to far to one side which causes the shifter to sit too far to the driver's side. Looking back at my order, I ordered the hockey stick with a part number of 113311541C, however, I am seeing that there is a hockey stick with a part number of 113311541A. Anyone know the difference in these and if it will locate the coupler in the correct position?

I may just take a stab at drilling a new locater divot in the one I have. At this point, it can hurt.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 27, 2021 5:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Shifter issues after replacing nose cone Reply with quote

I know that there is a difference in that divot drilling, I just do not remember what it is. But I do know that you have to use the right stick for the nose cone and the right nose cone for the mount you are attaching to and the right mount for the application that you have.

This page has the sticks on them and tells the years they were installed on.
https://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=VWC%2D113%2D311%2D541%2DC
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Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 27, 2021 7:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Shifter issues after replacing nose cone Reply with quote

the 113-311-541-C is wrong . there is a 541-A and- C both are wrong.
you need the plain ol' 113-311-541. NO letter. MOFOCO has it. cip1 too
you can try to re-drill it . not positive that is the only difference though? Confused
not only the divot in the wrong place the bent part may be different as well ?


Steve
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46 beetle 552nd royal army service corps CCG
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 27, 2021 9:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Shifter issues after replacing nose cone Reply with quote

sgmalt46 wrote:
the 113-311-541-C is wrong . there is a 541-A and- C both are wrong.
you need the plain ol' 113-311-541. NO letter. MOFOCO has it. cip1 too
you can try to re-drill it . not positive that is the only difference though? Confused
not only the divot in the wrong place the bent part may be different as well ?


Steve


You must use a hockey stick like the one on the right :

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Regards.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2021 4:56 am    Post subject: Re: Shifter issues after replacing nose cone Reply with quote

OK...thanks all. I did weld up the only hole and drilled a new divot so the orientation of the couple is now correct (b/t 11 and 1 o'clock) and just shifting it by hand using the coupler on the end it seems to shift correctly.

I'm tempted to give it a try just to say I made that one work...however I need to order the reverse switch plug and also a new seal. I mauled up the metal ring in the seal that came in the nose cone while taking the hockey stick in/out. Since I'm ordering that stuff anyway and have to wait I might as well get the correct part.

Thanks again for the help. I don't know how anybody worked on these things before the internet!
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2021 6:58 am    Post subject: Re: Shifter issues after replacing nose cone Reply with quote

wait for the right one. good job ovally Wink . I could not remember . it's been years . it needs the bend. or it won't work right or not at all ?

Steve
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55 rag top beetle
66 beetle
71 square back (sold) ! good luck with it Henry!
46 beetle 552nd royal army service corps CCG
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2021 7:05 am    Post subject: Re: Shifter issues after replacing nose cone Reply with quote

Quote:
wait for the right one...


I am... it's on its way.
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