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?Waldo?
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006
Posts: 9752
Location: Where?
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 Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:13 pm Post subject: Re: Auto trans kickdown and governor question |
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| The throttle should be at WOT *before* kickdown. Moving the accelerator pedal into the kickdown range should compress the spring in the linkage. That is the purpose of the spring setup - it allows the engine to be at WOT both before kickdown and when kickdown is engaged. |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16879
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:57 pm Post subject: Re: Auto trans kickdown and governor question |
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| ?Waldo? wrote: |
| The throttle should be at WOT *before* kickdown.. |
true, that is how the book wants it done. 3, 5, 10* of the throttle plate being full WOT isn't going to make a dimes worth of difference.
i have mine set so kickdown and WOT happen at the same time. i have positive crisp downshifts and really no issues to report.
more important (imho) is to get the kickdown lever in full kickdown position. seeing how it's directly connected to line pressure if it's off any amount this could for sure cause stuff to burn up if it's not set right.
obviously you don't want it to kick down at 1/4 throttle either.
you can get the throttle to WOT before kickdown for sure...that's the whole point of the spring/slip joint but i think it's more important to have the lever in full "lock" if you will
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| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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danfromsyr
Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004
Posts: 15144
Location: Syracuse, NY
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| Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:34 am Post subject: Re: Auto trans kickdown and governor question |
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'crispness' of the shifts is a factor of the 'relative' position of the 'manual valve' relay lever on the side of the transmission.
this is why the automatic throttle linkage is adjustable at both ends, so that you can orient the manual valve lever to fine tune the shiftability specific to the van/driver.
how Skills has his adjusted will provide crisper shifts sooner.
this is how we've done ours in the past.
since the relative position of the manual valve lever controls the soft/hard factor of the upshifts, you may have to dial it in to suit your van and driving habits.
just don't let it be set too soft (towards the rear) as you will slip and burn up clutches with drawn out soft shifts..
also to add in that while crisp hard shifts are nice on on ramps. they're not so fun in a small town traffic where it'll hold your RPMS up higher than you like when your just under the shift point mph..
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| Abscate wrote: |
| These are the reasons we have words like “wanker” |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16879
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:20 am Post subject: Re: Auto trans kickdown and governor question |
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i'm not talking B&M shift kit shifts with mine 
i guess what i was getting at is if you set it too soft you'll burn stuff up so i just wanted to make sure he was setting the lever to full travel. you'll feel it click in when it is.
in my opinion it's more important to be at full kick down than full throttle. if the throttle is off a hair it isn't going to make as much of a difference but setting the kickdown lever in the wrong spot can cause transmission damage
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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?Waldo?
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006
Posts: 9752
Location: Where?
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| Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:26 am Post subject: Re: Auto trans kickdown and governor question |
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| danfromsyr wrote: |
'crispness' of the shifts is a factor of the 'relative' position of the 'manual valve' relay lever on the side of the transmission.
this is why the automatic throttle linkage is adjustable at both ends, so that you can orient the manual valve lever to fine tune the shiftability specific to the van/driver. |
That doesn't really make sense to me. The relay lever is also the kickdown lever. I can see how it could be set up wrongly for softer shifts and lose the kickdown function, but I do not see how the relay lever could be adjusted for softer shifts (other than marginally) without losing the kickdown range.
| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| you can get the throttle to WOT before kickdown for sure...that's the whole point of the spring/slip joint but i think it's more important to have the lever in full "lock" if you will |
Since both are easily achieved, I would not focus on either while eliminating the other. Doing both is correct. Have WOT just before kickdown, and have the spring assembly allow the kickdown range of the relay lever while maintaining WOT. With a more powerful engine conversion it becomes less important but regardless I don't see a reason to limit the performance pre-kickdown when the linkage is designed to and easily set up to accommodate full power pre-kickdown and maintain full power through the kickdown range. |
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SCM
Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2011
Posts: 3118
Location: Bozeman MT
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| Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:45 am Post subject: Re: Auto trans kickdown and governor question |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
more important (imho) is to get the kickdown lever in full kickdown position. |
How do you know if the lever is in that position? Is full kickdown position the point where the lever is leaning as far forward (towards front of van) as possible or some place just before? EDIT: I'm guessing all the way forward, hence the suggestion to zip-tie it there prior to adjusting the cable?
This is the part that I can't figure out as the Bentley just a shows an arrow and I can't tell what it's pointing to.
Also kinda weird, after poking around and taking those photos last night, the van entered kickdown just fine this morning on flat roads. Maybe the adjustment is just barely off? I won't have a chance to try it on steep hills until this weekend.
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'91 Westfalia GL Automatic (GTA "Turbo" Rebuild w/Peloquin) and 2.3L GoWesty Engine |
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?Waldo?
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006
Posts: 9752
Location: Where?
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| Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:15 am Post subject: Re: Auto trans kickdown and governor question |
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If you are only able to achieve the kickdown function intermittently there are basically three potential reasons.
1. The accelerator cable from pedal to trans is too long and not consistently pulling the relay lever forward enough to reach the kickdown range. If that is the case, then adjusting the cable slightly under the pedal is typically the cure.
2. The throttle body is reaching WOT too soon, the linkage spring is becoming coil bound, and that is preventing the relay lever from reaching the kickdown range. If the spring is not coil bound at WOT, this is not your issue (go back to 1.). If the spring is becoming coil bound, and preventing movement into the kickdown range, then loosening the linkage/spring adjustment is typically the cure.
3. If the prior two potentials are proven not to be the issue, then there could be an internal issue within the trans itself that is preventing the kickdown from functioning. |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16879
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:46 am Post subject: Re: Auto trans kickdown and governor question |
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| SCM wrote: |
How do you know if the lever is in that position? Is full kickdown position the point where the lever is leaning as far forward (towards front of van) as possible or some place just before? EDIT: I'm guessing all the way forward, hence the suggestion to zip-tie it there prior to adjusting the cable?
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yes, you'll feel a physical detent or audible "click" when it enters that range. you just want to make sure you are all the way to it's stop to get full kick down. if it's not, then you can be bleeding off pressure and that's not good.
in a perfect world when you push the gas pedal to the floor you'll hit a "stop" (you'll feel the pedal come up on the kickdown lever detent)
press a little harder and the kickdown lever will enter the range and should be fully engaged when the pedal is on the floor
that's why i find it easier to zip tie that lever to max travel/stop and weight the pedal and pull the cable tight before clamping the cable barrel.
so i guess i just adjust it backwards. it's more important (to me) to have the trans in full kickdown than it is to grab 1/16 ft lb of torque if the butterfly happens to be off a hair.
i get they want WOT right before kickdown and you can for sure get it adjusted to do just that, but being off a tiny bit isn't going to be a deal breaker
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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?Waldo?
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006
Posts: 9752
Location: Where?
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| Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 10:35 am Post subject: Re: Auto trans kickdown and governor question |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| that's why i find it easier to zip tie that lever to max travel/stop and weight the pedal and pull the cable tight before clamping the cable barrel. |
I think that is a really good way to set the accelerator cable length. Make sure the connection at the throttle body isn't limiting the range of motion of the relay lever. Once the front cable is set to the correct length, then have the pedal held to just before kickdown (have a helper or appropriate weight on pedal hold it there) and adjust the rear linkage spring so that the throttle just hits WOT with the minimum compression of the linkage spring. Bob's your uncle. |
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brickster
Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2004
Posts: 512
Location: CO, USA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 1:44 pm Post subject: Re: Auto trans kickdown and governor question |
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| ?Waldo? wrote: |
| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| that's why i find it easier to zip tie that lever to max travel/stop and weight the pedal and pull the cable tight before clamping the cable barrel. |
I think that is a really good way to set the accelerator cable length. Make sure the connection at the throttle body isn't limiting the range of motion of the relay lever. Once the front cable is set to the correct length, then have the pedal held to just before kickdown (have a helper or appropriate weight on pedal hold it there) and adjust the rear linkage spring so that the throttle just hits WOT with the minimum compression of the linkage spring. Bob's your uncle. |
This sounds like a really good way to do this. Where exactly do you attach the zip tie? I'm on my 4th Vanagon but 1st automatic and need to replace my cable and adjust for the first time. |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16879
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 1:47 pm Post subject: Re: Auto trans kickdown and governor question |
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i just zip tied the lever to the cable bracket.
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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SCM
Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2011
Posts: 3118
Location: Bozeman MT
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| Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:20 pm Post subject: Re: Auto trans kickdown and governor question |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| i just zip tied the lever to the cable bracket. |
Bracket? I was getting excited for such a simple fix but now I'm wondering if there's more to my problem.
I see the threaded bosses where such a bracket would attach but there is no bracket. Would that have been deleted on some vans?
This fitting seems to hold the cable fairly securely although I can rotate it around it's bolt. My bicycle mechanic experience tells me that shouldn't matter though, as long as the ends of the inner cable and the outer housing stay in the same position relative to one another - right?
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'91 Westfalia GL Automatic (GTA "Turbo" Rebuild w/Peloquin) and 2.3L GoWesty Engine |
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danfromsyr
Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004
Posts: 15144
Location: Syracuse, NY
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| Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:29 pm Post subject: Re: Auto trans kickdown and governor question |
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yeah supposed to be a small bracket to hold and steady the end of the plastic throttle cable housing..
your's can bend/S-shape when full on the throttle.
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| Abscate wrote: |
| These are the reasons we have words like “wanker” |
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SCM
Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2011
Posts: 3118
Location: Bozeman MT
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| Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 3:11 pm Post subject: Re: Auto trans kickdown and governor question |
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| danfromsyr wrote: |
yeah supposed to be a small bracket to hold and steady the end of the plastic throttle cable housing..
your's can bend/S-shape when full on the throttle. |
Wonderful. At least they’re available.
Any idea what size bolts I need?
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'91 Westfalia GL Automatic (GTA "Turbo" Rebuild w/Peloquin) and 2.3L GoWesty Engine |
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mikemtnbike
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Joined: March 26, 2015
Posts: 2796
Location: North Carolina
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SCM
Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2011
Posts: 3118
Location: Bozeman MT
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| Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:42 pm Post subject: Re: Auto trans kickdown and governor question |
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| mikemtnbike wrote: |
| This is a rock solid thread, thanks for posting Dan, skilz, Waldo. |
Nothing for the guy that dredged up the original 4 year old thread. Where’s your manners?
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?Waldo?
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006
Posts: 9752
Location: Where?
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| Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:19 pm Post subject: Re: Auto trans kickdown and governor question |
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| SCM wrote: |
Bracket? I was getting excited for such a simple fix but now I'm wondering if there's more to my problem.
I see the threaded bosses where such a bracket would attach but there is no bracket. Would that have been deleted on some vans? |
The engine/trans move in their mounts relative to the chassis when power is increased/decreased or when the drivetrain is pushed on by inertia or gravity, like when going around corners or up/down hills. Without that bracket locating the end of the cable sheath at a stationary point on the trans, then when the trans moves, it will pull on or relax the cable. That could certainly account for an intermittent kickdown function. Due to the linkage rod, that effect would transfer to the throttle body also, causing the throttle to open more/less in some situations. |
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kourt
Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2013
Posts: 1947
Location: Austin, TX
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| Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:45 pm Post subject: Re: Auto trans kickdown and governor question |
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Just for reference, the Bostig automatic throttle cable setup video linked below shows how the kickdown works. For folks who want to see that kickdown explained on video, see below (link goes right to the video portion of relevance).
Link
kourt |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16879
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:48 pm Post subject: Re: Auto trans kickdown and governor question |
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holy shit 
yea, that bracket is kinda important. your cable was flopping around for sure, and all of the tension was just on that crappy little plastic piece bolted to the chassis
scroll down, here is what it looks like
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9470777#9470777
bolts should be M8's as i recall
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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SCM
Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2011
Posts: 3118
Location: Bozeman MT
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| Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:05 am Post subject: Re: Auto trans kickdown and governor question |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
holy shit
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Exactly. I’m not comfortable removing engines or transmissions myself but this makes glad I do the rest of my own wrenching. This was done by my local Vanagon “expert”.
Thanks for all the help everyone!
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'91 Westfalia GL Automatic (GTA "Turbo" Rebuild w/Peloquin) and 2.3L GoWesty Engine |
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