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RandyV Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2019 Posts: 357 Location: So Cal
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Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:50 am Post subject: Anybody know type 1 case sump flange thickness?? (For Helicoils) |
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I need to helicoil a couple sump stud holes and want to know how long of helicoil inserts to get. (This is on a 1200 case of it makes a diff)
Thanks in advance. |
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bugguy1967 Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2008 Posts: 4338 Location: Los Angeles, CA 90016
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Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 10:12 am Post subject: Re: Anybody know type 1 case sump flange thickness?? (For Helicoils) |
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M6x1.5 length _________________ "A petrol engine can start readily, run smoothly and give every appearance of being in good order, without necessarily being in good tune." - Colin Campbell, "The Sportscar Engine" |
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RandyV Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2019 Posts: 357 Location: So Cal
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Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 10:23 am Post subject: Re: Anybody know type 1 case sump flange thickness?? (For Helicoils) |
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Thank you! I’m not draining oil til this weekend and had an opportunity to get a kit that has 1x, 1.5x (common) and 2x diameter length helicoils in the kit thinking maybe the 1x was appropriate but that flange is probably thicker than I think it is.
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Ohio Tom Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2006 Posts: 1657 Location: Marshallville Ohio
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Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 12:48 pm Post subject: Re: Anybody know type 1 case sump flange thickness?? (For Helicoils) |
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1/2" long.
3/8" will work as well. |
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BFB Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2014 Posts: 1689
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Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:36 pm Post subject: Re: Anybody know type 1 case sump flange thickness?? (For Helicoils) |
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OP, they make stepped studs so that you dont have to heli coil. studs probably seal better than a heli coil too? _________________ Forced induction can overcome a lot of obsticles that gets in it's way
"You are the Engineer and the Mechanic.
Build it your way not the way someone else does it. Their way might not work for you." - clonebug
An interesting thing happens in forums where everyone starts parroting the same thing and "common knowledge" takes over.
“ The monkey see monkey do mentality seems to run deep in VW people. "Gene Berg said it was so 30 years ago so thats the way it is" “ - bdkw1 |
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evanfrucht Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2016 Posts: 2180 Location: Laurel Canyon, CA
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Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:44 pm Post subject: Re: Anybody know type 1 case sump flange thickness?? (For Helicoils) |
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Also when/if you use inserts you might also consider using bolts instead if studs as they physically cannot pull out or unthread. They still can strip if you torque the plate nuts too much. _________________ 1967 Bug ( the daily rod )
1964 Fury Wagon ( the pavement shredder ) |
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RandyV Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2019 Posts: 357 Location: So Cal
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Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:55 pm Post subject: Re: Anybody know type 1 case sump flange thickness?? (For Helicoils) |
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evanfrucht wrote: |
Also when/if you use inserts you might also consider using bolts instead if studs as they physically cannot pull out or unthread. They still can strip if you torque the plate nuts too much. |
Very good point actually! Because once helicoiled the threads are now no longer soft but hardened! No more concern for wearing/weakening case material so bolts would definitely be a good option.
Richard -- I first thought stepped studs too but actually, that can be used as a 3rd option if helicoils ever fail (which shouldn't, at least not anytime soon) but the stepped studs go significantly larger than what Helicoils will so you allow that 3rd option further down the road.
Tom ---- Helicoils work on multiples of the sized diameter. Thus at M6 (approx .240") a true 1.5x (common length for HeliCoils) would be approx .360" which should be good for this repair.
Now I just gotta burn thru this last oil change so I can get to fixin'. |
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FreeBug Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2012 Posts: 4278 Location: deepest, darkest Switzerland
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Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 4:20 am Post subject: Re: Anybody know type 1 case sump flange thickness?? (For Helicoils) |
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I think I used M6 x 12 . There is also an M6 x 9.4mm Time-Sert. I don't remember exactly, but if you measure the flange, you'll soon see which length is appropriate.
I would recommend Time-Sert, if you can afford them. Better than a helicoil, it can be well loktited into place, becoming a permanent steel thread.
I did all 6 of the sump threads, for exactly that: bolt things down steel-to-steel, especially a place like sump threads, which will be solicited frequently and regularly throughout the engine's life. It felt safer for bolting on a sump, too.
I wish Time-Sert were more affordable, but you get what you pay for, right?
(I also did the 4 generator stand threads, removed the studs, and use bolts instead. so I could easily remove the alternator/fan. There's little consensus on the value of that, though)
Insert joke here.
Last edited by FreeBug on Fri Jun 25, 2021 4:41 am; edited 1 time in total |
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FreeBug Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2012 Posts: 4278 Location: deepest, darkest Switzerland
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Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 4:25 am Post subject: Re: Anybody know type 1 case sump flange thickness?? (For Helicoils) |
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That endorsement must be worth a metric master kit, surely...Hey, Time-Sert! Are you seeing this? Write me a PM, and I'll give you the delivery address... |
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Cusser Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006 Posts: 31268 Location: Hot Arizona
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RandyV Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2019 Posts: 357 Location: So Cal
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Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 6:47 am Post subject: Re: Anybody know type 1 case sump flange thickness?? (For Helicoils) |
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Problem as I mentioned before is two-fold for step studs...
#1.) You're still set in soft material
#2.) You're running out of options as your hole is no about as large as you can go
As for Helicoil vs Timesert....(and I do like both, but there's a reason aerospace relies heavily on Helicoil)........
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agnim31D5hY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xgBTunyOq4
Not that VW sump will ever endure these kinds of loads but HeliCoil's design has always had a more consisten load distribution. |
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Cusser Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006 Posts: 31268 Location: Hot Arizona
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Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:22 am Post subject: Re: Anybody know type 1 case sump flange thickness?? (For Helicoils) |
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RandyV wrote: |
there's a reason aerospace relies heavily on Helicoil)........
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Hey - I'm afraid to fly ALREADY !!! _________________ 1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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RandyV Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2019 Posts: 357 Location: So Cal
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Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:41 pm Post subject: Re: Anybody know type 1 case sump flange thickness?? (For Helicoils) |
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Cusser wrote: |
RandyV wrote: |
there's a reason aerospace relies heavily on Helicoil)........
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Hey - I'm afraid to fly ALREADY !!! |
Hey, I work with people who making nothing BUT airplane parts and I sometimes wonder to myself how they ever get off the ground with the caliber of work I see. |
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FreeBug Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2012 Posts: 4278 Location: deepest, darkest Switzerland
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Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:45 pm Post subject: Re: Anybody know type 1 case sump flange thickness?? (For Helicoils) |
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1.) Yes, but... the load is now distributed on a larger, .and the idea is that the steel thread now becomes the "working" thread.
2.) I don't know which needs a bigger hole.. a helicoil or a time-sert?
Either way, you're making the hole bigger. Of you don't want to do that, you can use an M6 screw threaded from the inside-down. With good loktite, you should be good to have that act as a stud which can't be unscrewed. |
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RWK Samba Member
Joined: June 24, 2009 Posts: 1337 Location: S.W. MI
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Posted: Sat Jun 26, 2021 7:43 am Post subject: Re: Anybody know type 1 case sump flange thickness?? (For Helicoils) |
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One of the reasons helicoils or any inserts don;t work well is because the holes that are drilled most often in repair situ are hand drilled and typically are over sized and crooked if you want to do a better job try to find a reamer that is the size of the hole you need to put in, it will produce a better hole more to size then a drill especially when doing by hand. VW used helicoils in T4 drain plugs,(no sump plate) and they were used in rear engine mount bolt hole, (places VW knew were going to be used regularly) _________________ 73 Type 181
63 Type 113
63 Type 261- 428 071
62 Type 241-378 025 178 530 |
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67rustavenger Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2015 Posts: 9663 Location: Oregon
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Posted: Sat Jun 26, 2021 7:54 am Post subject: Re: Anybody know type 1 case sump flange thickness?? (For Helicoils) |
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While the thru bolt idea is a great suggestion. I did just that on the most recent build. Works as planned on a CB Mini sump.
It's damn near impossible to install the bolts on an assembled engine. The oil pickup tube "Bell" is in the way.
It sounds like the OP is wanting to repair the sump studs without disassembling the engine.
If this were my engine and I wanted to repair the sump studs in situ. I'd use timeserts. _________________ I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!
There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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mark tucker Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009 Posts: 23937 Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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Posted: Sat Jun 26, 2021 8:41 am Post subject: Re: Anybody know type 1 case sump flange thickness?? (For Helicoils) |
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eye too wood doo the stepping studs. or add new threads and use bolts from the inside going down locktighted in.( I usualy use bolts there on my builds and lock tight them in.be sure the length is correct so the capnuts do not bottom and unscrew the bolts been there done that. pain in the ass. |
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