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Anybody know type 1 case sump flange thickness?? (For Helicoils)
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RandyV
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:50 am    Post subject: Anybody know type 1 case sump flange thickness?? (For Helicoils) Reply with quote

I need to helicoil a couple sump stud holes and want to know how long of helicoil inserts to get. (This is on a 1200 case of it makes a diff)

Thanks in advance.
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bugguy1967
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 10:12 am    Post subject: Re: Anybody know type 1 case sump flange thickness?? (For Helicoils) Reply with quote

M6x1.5 length
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RandyV
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 10:23 am    Post subject: Re: Anybody know type 1 case sump flange thickness?? (For Helicoils) Reply with quote

Thank you! I’m not draining oil til this weekend and had an opportunity to get a kit that has 1x, 1.5x (common) and 2x diameter length helicoils in the kit thinking maybe the 1x was appropriate but that flange is probably thicker than I think it is.

Idea
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 12:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Anybody know type 1 case sump flange thickness?? (For Helicoils) Reply with quote

1/2" long.
3/8" will work as well.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Anybody know type 1 case sump flange thickness?? (For Helicoils) Reply with quote

OP, they make stepped studs so that you dont have to heli coil. studs probably seal better than a heli coil too?
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Anybody know type 1 case sump flange thickness?? (For Helicoils) Reply with quote

Also when/if you use inserts you might also consider using bolts instead if studs as they physically cannot pull out or unthread. They still can strip if you torque the plate nuts too much.
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RandyV
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Anybody know type 1 case sump flange thickness?? (For Helicoils) Reply with quote

evanfrucht wrote:
Also when/if you use inserts you might also consider using bolts instead if studs as they physically cannot pull out or unthread. They still can strip if you torque the plate nuts too much.


Very good point actually! Because once helicoiled the threads are now no longer soft but hardened! No more concern for wearing/weakening case material so bolts would definitely be a good option.

Richard -- I first thought stepped studs too but actually, that can be used as a 3rd option if helicoils ever fail (which shouldn't, at least not anytime soon) but the stepped studs go significantly larger than what Helicoils will so you allow that 3rd option further down the road.

Tom ---- Helicoils work on multiples of the sized diameter. Thus at M6 (approx .240") a true 1.5x (common length for HeliCoils) would be approx .360" which should be good for this repair.

Now I just gotta burn thru this last oil change so I can get to fixin'. Wink
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 4:20 am    Post subject: Re: Anybody know type 1 case sump flange thickness?? (For Helicoils) Reply with quote

I think I used M6 x 12 . There is also an M6 x 9.4mm Time-Sert. I don't remember exactly, but if you measure the flange, you'll soon see which length is appropriate.

I would recommend Time-Sert, if you can afford them. Better than a helicoil, it can be well loktited into place, becoming a permanent steel thread.

I did all 6 of the sump threads, for exactly that: bolt things down steel-to-steel, especially a place like sump threads, which will be solicited frequently and regularly throughout the engine's life. It felt safer for bolting on a sump, too.

I wish Time-Sert were more affordable, but you get what you pay for, right?

(I also did the 4 generator stand threads, removed the studs, and use bolts instead. so I could easily remove the alternator/fan. There's little consensus on the value of that, though)

Insert joke here.


Last edited by FreeBug on Fri Jun 25, 2021 4:41 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 4:25 am    Post subject: Re: Anybody know type 1 case sump flange thickness?? (For Helicoils) Reply with quote

That endorsement must be worth a metric master kit, surely...Hey, Time-Sert! Are you seeing this? Write me a PM, and I'll give you the delivery address... Very Happy
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 6:18 am    Post subject: Re: Anybody know type 1 case sump flange thickness?? (For Helicoils) Reply with quote

I'd do step studs or Time Serts over helicoils myself.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 6:47 am    Post subject: Re: Anybody know type 1 case sump flange thickness?? (For Helicoils) Reply with quote

Problem as I mentioned before is two-fold for step studs...

#1.) You're still set in soft material

#2.) You're running out of options as your hole is no about as large as you can go

As for Helicoil vs Timesert....(and I do like both, but there's a reason aerospace relies heavily on Helicoil)........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agnim31D5hY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xgBTunyOq4

Not that VW sump will ever endure these kinds of loads but HeliCoil's design has always had a more consisten load distribution.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:22 am    Post subject: Re: Anybody know type 1 case sump flange thickness?? (For Helicoils) Reply with quote

RandyV wrote:
there's a reason aerospace relies heavily on Helicoil)........


Hey - I'm afraid to fly ALREADY !!!
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Anybody know type 1 case sump flange thickness?? (For Helicoils) Reply with quote

Cusser wrote:
RandyV wrote:
there's a reason aerospace relies heavily on Helicoil)........


Hey - I'm afraid to fly ALREADY !!!


Hey, I work with people who making nothing BUT airplane parts and I sometimes wonder to myself how they ever get off the ground with the caliber of work I see. Laughing Wink Shocked
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Anybody know type 1 case sump flange thickness?? (For Helicoils) Reply with quote

1.) Yes, but... the load is now distributed on a larger, .and the idea is that the steel thread now becomes the "working" thread.

2.) I don't know which needs a bigger hole.. a helicoil or a time-sert?

Either way, you're making the hole bigger. Of you don't want to do that, you can use an M6 screw threaded from the inside-down. With good loktite, you should be good to have that act as a stud which can't be unscrewed.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2021 7:43 am    Post subject: Re: Anybody know type 1 case sump flange thickness?? (For Helicoils) Reply with quote

One of the reasons helicoils or any inserts don;t work well is because the holes that are drilled most often in repair situ are hand drilled and typically are over sized and crooked if you want to do a better job try to find a reamer that is the size of the hole you need to put in, it will produce a better hole more to size then a drill especially when doing by hand. VW used helicoils in T4 drain plugs,(no sump plate) and they were used in rear engine mount bolt hole, (places VW knew were going to be used regularly)
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2021 7:54 am    Post subject: Re: Anybody know type 1 case sump flange thickness?? (For Helicoils) Reply with quote

While the thru bolt idea is a great suggestion. I did just that on the most recent build. Works as planned on a CB Mini sump.

It's damn near impossible to install the bolts on an assembled engine. The oil pickup tube "Bell" is in the way.

It sounds like the OP is wanting to repair the sump studs without disassembling the engine.

If this were my engine and I wanted to repair the sump studs in situ. I'd use timeserts.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2021 8:41 am    Post subject: Re: Anybody know type 1 case sump flange thickness?? (For Helicoils) Reply with quote

eye too wood doo the stepping studs. or add new threads and use bolts from the inside going down locktighted in.( I usualy use bolts there on my builds and lock tight them in.be sure the length is correct so the capnuts do not bottom and unscrew the bolts Shocked been there done that. pain in the ass.
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