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Fiddlestyx
Samba Member
Joined: July 08, 2015
Posts: 401
Location: Texas
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 Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2021 10:02 am Post subject: 2.0 Type IV rebuild |
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I am in the process of rebuilding a 2.0 air-cooled engine out of a Vanagon. This engine is similar to the late Bay engines so I thought I would start a post here for all the questions I am going to have. The engine code is CV.
I have already tore down the engine and found that I need new heads and pistons. I am getting all new bearings and having the crank polished. I don't know what the do about the camshaft and I can not find a stock one to buy. Maybe I am missing it.
This is my camshaft
I think it needs to be replaced because the farthest lobe to the right has lines on it, which you can see here. I can't feel the lines with my fingernail, but I don't know where they came from.
All 8 lifters look like this.
Should I use this, regrind it or replace it?
If I am to replace it, where can I get a cam with a stock grind?
I'm not sure about a regrind because from what I have read online some people say only the surface is hardened and others say the whole lobe is hardened. Which is it?
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1983 Vanagon Westfalia Air-cooled
1973 Super Beetle |
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Clatter
Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003
Posts: 7537
Location: Santa Cruz
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| Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2021 10:42 am Post subject: Re: 2.0 Type IV rebuild |
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IIRC, Web does regrinds..
Many will choose to upgrade the cam while they're in there to keep the motor cooler.
The Vanagon type 4 is about the most brutal environ a motor will ever know;
Build judiciously..
If you're on a budget, you can send your lifters to SLR.
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Bus Motor Build
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vacca_rabite
Samba Member
Joined: July 04, 2021
Posts: 72
Location: PA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2021 10:52 am Post subject: Re: 2.0 Type IV rebuild |
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Have you looked at the Type 4 Store?
Or European Motor Werks?
Either would be able to recommend a good cam for low end torque.
Also, I'd think hard about going to 96mm pistons and cylinders.
And also also - since it was in a vanagon make sure that the case registers have not started to collapse. I've seen that with bus cases. You can't get the jugs even across the tops because they are now cocked at the engine case.
Zach |
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Fiddlestyx
Samba Member
Joined: July 08, 2015
Posts: 401
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2021 11:06 am Post subject: Re: 2.0 Type IV rebuild |
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| Clatter wrote: |
IIRC, Web does regrinds..
Many will choose to upgrade the cam while they're in there to keep the motor cooler.
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What is a good upgrade? The only thing I have read about is a close to stock grind that makes the engine run like crap at idle.
| vacca_rabite wrote: |
Have you looked at the Type 4 Store?
Or European Motor Werks?
Either would be able to recommend a good cam for low end torque.
Also, I'd think hard about going to 96mm pistons and cylinders.
And also also - since it was in a vanagon make sure that the case registers have not started to collapse. I've seen that with bus cases. You can't get the jugs even across the tops because they are now cocked at the engine case.
Zach |
I have looked at Type 4 Store, but most of the stuff is out of my budget. I thought going to 96mm pistons would cause more heat.
I am trying to keep this build close to stock as I am on a budget. I would love a camper special engine, but wouldn't we all.
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1983 Vanagon Westfalia Air-cooled
1973 Super Beetle |
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Clatter
Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003
Posts: 7537
Location: Santa Cruz
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| Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2021 11:46 am Post subject: Re: 2.0 Type IV rebuild |
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| Fiddlestyx wrote: |
| Clatter wrote: |
IIRC, Web does regrinds..
Many will choose to upgrade the cam while they're in there to keep the motor cooler.
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What is a good upgrade? The only thing I have read about is a close to stock grind that makes the engine run like crap at idle.
| vacca_rabite wrote: |
Have you looked at the Type 4 Store?
Or European Motor Werks?
Either would be able to recommend a good cam for low end torque.
Also, I'd think hard about going to 96mm pistons and cylinders.
And also also - since it was in a vanagon make sure that the case registers have not started to collapse. I've seen that with bus cases. You can't get the jugs even across the tops because they are now cocked at the engine case.
Zach |
I have looked at Type 4 Store, but most of the stuff is out of my budget. I thought going to 96mm pistons would cause more heat.
I am trying to keep this build close to stock as I am on a budget. I would love a camper special engine, but wouldn't we all. |
You are embarking upon a very difficult application;
Without judicious application of effort, time, money and research you won't have success.
VW killed the type 4 in the Vanagon after just a couple of years for good reason.
Cam I'd get from the type 4 store. After that, my pick would be a Web 73/73+3.
Some like the regular 73, the 86, or even the C25.
Stock cams are known to run hot for emissions reasons.
Tuning bigger cams clean at idle can be tricky for smog.
Worth it for the cooler running IMHO.
More learn..
Might look at the build thread in my sig for a few ideas on bus motor building strategy.
This is a deep subject.
perhaps one of the hardest, most involved/detailed builds in the automotive kingdom.
So many factors can stack up, from idiot POs, shitty aftermarket parts, no cores, ethanol fuels, to the crazy freeway speeds today... On and on.
Check out builds here by MikeyM73 (or something like that) also KentPS.
They fought the fight through to success.
And, no, i wouldn't put 96s on a Vanagon motor..
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Bus Motor Build
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SGKent 
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2021 1:07 pm Post subject: Re: 2.0 Type IV rebuild |
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I run a Webcam 142 and fuel injection. It runs like a champ from idle all the way to redline, and from sea level to the highest roads in the Sierra. It is also the 95 HP profile from the 914 / 912e GA series 2L in Europe.
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Last edited by SGKent on Wed Jul 07, 2021 12:07 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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orwell84
Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2007
Posts: 2536
Location: Plattsburgh, New York
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| Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2021 3:11 pm Post subject: Re: 2.0 Type IV rebuild |
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These engines are challenging to build. You are getting the best advice. Clatter’s cheap junk build is the write up I always go back to.
Keep it simple. The cams mentioned are all good upgrades. You can’t really buy a new stock cam. Measuring and building carefully will give you a lot more satisfaction in the long run than big jugs. |
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Fiddlestyx
Samba Member
Joined: July 08, 2015
Posts: 401
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2021 4:18 pm Post subject: Re: 2.0 Type IV rebuild |
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I should mention this is a fuel injected engine. From what I have read about the webcam 73 is that it is hit or miss getting a good tune with FI.
Clatter's build is exactly what I was looking for, I am trying to reuse as much as I can. I don't have a problem doing measurements or having a machine shop do them. I would like to do as much as I can myself so I can learn, even if that means buying tools I don't have.
I found that European Motor Werks sells a stock cam, but I don't really know about other cams and the pros and cons of them and which would be best. This is for a heavy Westy camper so more torque would be good. The 86 cam only mentions carbs, so I think it's out.
http://www.europeanmotorworks.com/pvw/054-106-AH/type-4-camshaft/T-4+Stock+Camshaft+Hydraulic
I will be buying AMC heads and 94mm Mahle pistons.
I live in Texas and don't have to pass smog checks.
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1983 Vanagon Westfalia Air-cooled
1973 Super Beetle |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 8:27 am Post subject: Re: 2.0 Type IV rebuild |
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| Fiddlestyx wrote: |
I should mention this is a fuel injected engine. From what I have read about the webcam 73 is that it is hit or miss getting a good tune with FI.
Clatter's build is exactly what I was looking for, I am trying to reuse as much as I can. I don't have a problem doing measurements or having a machine shop do them. I would like to do as much as I can myself so I can learn, even if that means buying tools I don't have.
I found that European Motor Werks sells a stock cam, but I don't really know about other cams and the pros and cons of them and which would be best. This is for a heavy Westy camper so more torque would be good. The 86 cam only mentions carbs, so I think it's out.
http://www.europeanmotorworks.com/pvw/054-106-AH/type-4-camshaft/T-4+Stock+Camshaft+Hydraulic
I will be buying AMC heads and 94mm Mahle pistons.
I live in Texas and don't have to pass smog checks. |
The 73 is really not difficult to tune EFI around. There is not that much that needs to be tuned (ignition and a tweak to fuel mixture).
The problem is that the stock L-jet has very few adjustments for fuel mixture. Most people just do not really work at it very hard. This is the minor issue.
The major issue is....you will note that Clatter pointed out a 73/73+3. This is pretty close to the Raby 9590 or older 9555 if I am not mistaken. Its basically a web 73 with 3* extra duration(?) on exhaust.
BUT....the major issue is that the 73 is really a 411/412/914 camshaft (timing pattern wise) ....really made for type 4 engines with more compression than you are using on a bus/vanagon. Not excessive compression like 9.0:1...but between 8.0 and about 8.6:1
Yes...you can use one in a bus/vanagon.....but you need to have teh compression it runs with....and then do the fuel and ignition tweaking.
So in that respect...yes....it can be hard to tune around "STOCK" injection...because its not a drop in and play. It has to be part of the overall engine plan.
As others have mentioned there are other more "bus-centric" camshafts out there. Ray |
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Fiddlestyx
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Joined: July 08, 2015
Posts: 401
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 3:09 pm Post subject: Re: 2.0 Type IV rebuild |
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I spent the last few days reading all about these cams and I am more confused than ever.
I just got off the phone with European Motorworks and they said that with fuel injection I can only use a stock cam, which is strange (maybe only their stock cam works with FI and their other cams don't). They sell a new stock one for $99, plus I would need a cam gear and new lifters.
I was looking at the Scat C25, but you have to buy new lifters when you replace the cam and Scat doesn't make hydraulic lifters (which I want) and I guess you are supposed to use the same brand so material is the same. Plus I have to get new springs and all that. If I switch to solid lifters I have to get new pushrods and then where does it end?
If I do decide on the C25 what is it going to do for my van?
Type 4 store and Webcams are out of my price range once all is said and done.
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1983 Vanagon Westfalia Air-cooled
1973 Super Beetle |
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airkooledchris
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Joined: January 25, 2005
Posts: 2710
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| Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 4:46 pm Post subject: Re: 2.0 Type IV rebuild |
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| Fiddlestyx wrote: |
Type 4 store and Webcams are out of my price range once all is said and done. |
This isn't an engine that responds well to budget decisions like that. If this really is the case, then wait until Webcam is at least in your range.
If you really want to stick with Hydraulic, have you considered the 107i grind?
https://vwparts.aircooled.net/Web-Cam-Type-4-Camshaft-107i-Grind-00-612-p/00-612.htm |
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12721
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 5:34 pm Post subject: Re: 2.0 Type IV rebuild |
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Be aware that "stock" means different grinds depending on lifters (solid/hydro) and you MUST clarify this when speaking about "stock" Type 4 bus cams.
Robbie
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SGKent
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Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 8:27 pm Post subject: Re: 2.0 Type IV rebuild |
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The "stock" webcam 142 is really the "Stock" grind used in the 95 HP Porsche 912e and 914-4 engines. It works really well with the bus L-Jet FI. A truly stock bus cam only produces 70 HP.
Do a search for C25 here with FI and some of the issues. The FI system the buses use require a certain amount of vacuum to work. The C25 has issues producing that vacuum from what I've read. The Webcam 142 is right at the edge of what works well and where things start to go goofy with FI.
read https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=741411&highlight=c25
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Fiddlestyx
Samba Member
Joined: July 08, 2015
Posts: 401
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 5:34 am Post subject: Re: 2.0 Type IV rebuild |
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| SGKent wrote: |
The Webcam 142 is right at the edge of what works well and where things start to go goofy with FI.
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This is the type of answer I have been searching for, thank you.
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1983 Vanagon Westfalia Air-cooled
1973 Super Beetle |
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traveler727
Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2012
Posts: 35
Location: virginia beach
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| Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 5:49 am Post subject: Re: 2.0 Type IV rebuild |
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| I’ve see “Clatter’s cheap junk build’ mentioned. I searched a few different ways, but couldn’t find it. Has it been removed? |
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Fiddlestyx
Samba Member
Joined: July 08, 2015
Posts: 401
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 6:07 am Post subject: Re: 2.0 Type IV rebuild |
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| traveler727 wrote: |
| I’ve see “Clatter’s cheap junk build’ mentioned. I searched a few different ways, but couldn’t find it. Has it been removed? |
It's the "Bus Motor Build" in his signature.
https://shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=145853
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1973 Super Beetle |
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Fiddlestyx
Samba Member
Joined: July 08, 2015
Posts: 401
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 6:10 am Post subject: Re: 2.0 Type IV rebuild |
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The 142 is a solid lifter cam, I am wanting to stay with hydraulic lifters.
How does the 142 compare to the 107i?
Is there a hydraulic cam that has the same "grind" as the 142?
Scratch all of that. I will probably just go with the 142 and solid lifters.
I will need to get new pushrods.
I want to keep my original cam gear if I can, it is aluminum. It has a -3 stamped into it, will it be ok.
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1973 Super Beetle |
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timvw7476
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Joined: June 03, 2013
Posts: 2200
Location: seattle
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| Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 12:59 pm Post subject: Re: 2.0 Type IV rebuild |
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I want to keep my original cam gear if I can, it is aluminum. It has a -3 stamped into it, will it be ok.[/quote]
try to keep the -3 cam gear, I prefer re-metal sprayed oem camshaft.
that way you get all the drivability but no extra speed. And no surprises
with valve geometry. To each his own. |
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orwell84
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Joined: May 14, 2007
Posts: 2536
Location: Plattsburgh, New York
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| Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 1:28 pm Post subject: Re: 2.0 Type IV rebuild |
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| Fiddlestyx wrote: |
The 142 is a solid lifter cam, I am wanting to stay with hydraulic lifters.
How does the 142 compare to the 107i?
Is there a hydraulic cam that has the same "grind" as the 142?
Scratch all of that. I will probably just go with the 142 and solid lifters.
I will need to get new pushrods.
I want to keep my original cam gear if I can, it is aluminum. It has a -3 stamped into it, will it be ok. |
Maybe. Maybe not. You will have to check cam backlash when you are building the engine as well as the bolt clearance with the case and oil pump. |
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SGKent
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Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 2:32 pm Post subject: Re: 2.0 Type IV rebuild |
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probably it will be Ok. It has to be milled for the bolt heads. Another option you have is to have the old cam reground however a new cam is usually better. Webcam can regrind the old one if you leave the gear on the old cam. Use new lifters if you can regardless. The old ones can be ground too but the hardened surface is worn away so they will wear even faster if reground.
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