| Author |
Message |
djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32632
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Rorke
Samba Member
Joined: August 04, 2016
Posts: 255
Location: Traverse City, MI
|
 Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 5:16 am Post subject: Re: All new clutch/shift/trans. Not shifting. What next? |
 |
|
| ?Waldo? wrote: |
| Rorke wrote: |
Is there play in the pedal? |
Did you mention pedal freeplay? When it is no longer engaging, is there free play at the top of the pedal? |
There was tiny bit of free play.
I have a cutch pedal rebuild kit in my kit of spares. But two mechanics have said that the pedal was 10/10 perfect already. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Rorke
Samba Member
Joined: August 04, 2016
Posts: 255
Location: Traverse City, MI
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 5:19 am Post subject: Re: All new clutch/shift/trans. Not shifting. What next? |
|
|
| djkeev wrote: |
I don't have an answer but will say .......
WOW!
That is one ugly flywheel! Burned, chattered, in serious need of refacing or replacement.
Except for heat cracks that is one of the worst I've ever seen! And turning it may reveal heat cracks.....
Dave |
Really! Then I will replace it immediately! This is great to know. i thought it was fine looking.
Can you suggest a source for a new one?
Thank you |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32632
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Rorke
Samba Member
Joined: August 04, 2016
Posts: 255
Location: Traverse City, MI
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 5:35 am Post subject: Re: All new clutch/shift/trans. Not shifting. What next? |
|
|
| djkeev wrote: |
I would have it turned before replacing it.
But...... when you remove it you will want a new engine seal on hand.
And
be particular about the engine seal brand, some are more prone to failure.
You want the SABO ....
https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/vw-engine-cranksh...-029105245
And
Look at the back side where it rides on the engine seal, you don't want a ridge.
10c (intrepid overland) has a great piece in his blog for cleaning any ridges up.
Dave |
Dave,
Do you think that an amateur can do this? How long do you think it would take for me to get all this ordered, received, refurbished?
How long would you guess the job will take me in the driveway?
Any specific tools I should order?
Last, do you think this was the source of the non-shifting situation?
Rorke |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32632
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 5:45 am Post subject: Re: All new clutch/shift/trans. Not shifting. What next? |
|
|
| Rorke wrote: |
| djkeev wrote: |
I would have it turned before replacing it.
But...... when you remove it you will want a new engine seal on hand.
And
be particular about the engine seal brand, some are more prone to failure.
You want the SABO ....
https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/vw-engine-cranksh...-029105245
And
Look at the back side where it rides on the engine seal, you don't want a ridge.
10c (intrepid overland) has a great piece in his blog for cleaning any ridges up.
Dave |
Dave,
Do you think that an amateur can do this? How long do you think it would take for me to get all this ordered, received, refurbished?
How long would you guess the job will take me in the driveway?
Any specific tools I should order?
Last, do you think this was the source of the non-shifting situation?
Rorke |
I'm no expert on Vanagon manual transaxles after my decades of Beetles.
My Vanagon experience is with Automatics.
However I have wrenched on cars for over a half century, part of that time professionally.
Yes, the clutch disc can easily drag on that flywheel, not fully release.
If you pulled the transmission, you can pull a flywheel.
Time? Depends on the machine shop.
FCP ships quickly and also lifetime warranties their parts.
If you need the Van running tomorrow? It ain't going to happen.
Dave
_________________
Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos
Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473
Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MarkWard
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17155
Location: Retired South Florida
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 6:39 am Post subject: Re: All new clutch/shift/trans. Not shifting. What next? |
|
|
You can manually operate the transmission to see if it’s working properly. Slip the clutch disc on the input shaft and mark 12 o’clock. Mark both cv flanges at 12 o’clock. Select first gear and turn the disc. One or both flanges should turn. Make 4 or so rotations. Now select, 2nd, repeat, 3rd repeat, you’ll notice the percentage of cv rotations changes as you select taller gears. If this works, you’ve confirmed that the trans is basically working.
I’m mentioning this because one of your recent posts suggested that selecting a gear with the engine off, the van would not move off. Assuming a good transmission, the clutch was barely engaging and that is the reason for the burned flywheel. How does the pressure plate face look?
_________________
☮️ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Rorke
Samba Member
Joined: August 04, 2016
Posts: 255
Location: Traverse City, MI
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 7:58 am Post subject: Re: All new clutch/shift/trans. Not shifting. What next? |
|
|
| MarkWard wrote: |
| You can manually operate the transmission to see if it’s working properly...... How does the pressure plate face look? |
Mark,
Thanks for the input.
I am meeting tonight with a mechanic who rebuilds vw transaxles. He is going to run through this with me. Thanks.
Here are more pics...
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jberger
Samba Member
Joined: November 17, 2003
Posts: 2476
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 12:01 pm Post subject: Re: All new clutch/shift/trans. Not shifting. What next? |
|
|
So, this is a converted van? That's a Subaru? So the Flywheel is the KEP adapted one? The non shifting condition existed before the transaxle rebuild? I'd check runout of the flywheel. With the chatter marks I'd think the flywheel is out of spec... wobbling. Thus not allowing the clutch to properly disengage nor properly engage. BTW.. what Dave mentioned about the flywheel seals doesn't matter with a converted engine.
J |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9618
Location: Western WA
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 12:25 pm Post subject: Re: All new clutch/shift/trans. Not shifting. What next? |
|
|
Is this pic __before__ you un-screwed the pressure plate bolts?
It looks like the disk is just sitting offcenter by gravity with no 'pressure' on it. Strange pic.
==================
Agree with jberger, check runout of the flywheel.
Basically you have a helper rotate the engine with a 24mm socket on the pulley side, and watch the wobble of the flywheel.
You do this BEFORE you unbolt the flywheel.
You will need a torque wrench to tighten those flywheel bolts.
One person on theSamba made the mistake of torquing flywheel bolts to inch-lbs rather than ft-lbs - don't make that mistake.
Looking at that burned flywheel I can't believe it wasn't slipping too. Like it slips then gets so overheated the components get warped and stuff and it cannot fully release (drags) thus you can't shift.
If that's the case you could need a new pressure plate and disc too.
When you get the flywheel off have the interface (flywheel-to-crank faces) looked at by an expert.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jake de Villiers
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2007
Posts: 5911
Location: Tsawwassen, BC
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 12:47 pm Post subject: Re: All new clutch/shift/trans. Not shifting. What next? |
|
|
If that's a Subaru (or other) engine, you need to mention that!!! Not the same as VW.
It looks like an adapter plate to me but if its a SmallCar bellhousing you'll need a proprietary clutch disc to make it work.
_________________
'84 Vanagon GL 1.9 WBX
'86 Westy Weekender Poptop/2.5 Subaru/5 Speed Posi/Audi Front Brakes/16 x 7 Mercedes Wheels - answers to 'Dixie'
@jakedevilliersmusic1
http://sites.google.com/site/subyjake/mydixiedarlin%27
www.crescentbeachguitar.com
www.thebassspa.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Rorke
Samba Member
Joined: August 04, 2016
Posts: 255
Location: Traverse City, MI
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 2:34 pm Post subject: Re: All new clutch/shift/trans. Not shifting. What next? |
|
|
Found a bunch of old bearing material from the old bearing behind the flywheel.
It is from my shitty removal job.
Flywheel will get machined next week I hope. Or I will get another one I suppose.
I believe this is the problem. Hopefully it is. Pumped to start the season next weekend!
Thanks for all the help. Yes Kennedy Adapter and flywheel. I think that they use the vw clutch fine though.
I will bring the clutch in to be assessed. Great call.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9618
Location: Western WA
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 2:49 pm Post subject: Re: All new clutch/shift/trans. Not shifting. What next? |
|
|
Well it's always good when you FIND a problem.
And it's feasible that these needles were spinning the mainshaft even when you disengaged the clutch.
Behaving like a seized a seized throwout bearing.
Thanks very much for posting the pic and explaining, a lot is learned from others!!
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
Last edited by Sodo on Sat Jul 10, 2021 4:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
vanis13
Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2010
Posts: 3100
Location: ABQ NM USA.... Except when not
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 3:12 pm Post subject: Re: All new clutch/shift/trans. Not shifting. What next? |
|
|
| Rorke wrote: |
Found a bunch of old bearing material from the old bearing behind the flywheel.
It is from my shitty removal job.
Flywheel will get machined next week I hope. Or I will get another one I suppose.
........... Yes Kennedy Adapter and flywheel. I think that they use the vw clutch fine though.
I will bring the clutch in to be assessed.
|
1 - that flywheel needs to be turned on the clutch face and on the mounting face to maintain the relative distance between the two. (2-stage I think its called) your machine shop should know.
2 - if you need a new (a little under $300) , Kennedy should have it even though it doesn't show separate on their web page. If they are out this vendor seems to have some. *** there is a 200/228 mm versions so check yours https://www.pacificcustoms.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Sc...e=featured
3 - yours is a Kennedy (KEP) flywheel Says KEP6500 on the back in your pic so the roller pin pilot bearing is correct... https://www.vancafe.com/056105313C-p/056105313c.htm
4 - IF yours was a Outfront flywheel (for other reading this), it would NOT take the pilot bearing and would take a sealed bearing which is commonly available separately. Burley will tell you what it is - I forget but I had to replace it when I rebuilt my tranny recently. https://www.outfrontmotorsports.com/adapter-kits/o...y-flywheel
For $300 and that you are now good at taking this apart, I'd do the $60 flywheel Machining, put it back together and should work just fine.
You could probably get it machined Monday and test driving it Tues night for a few days before you get on your trip.
Good luck and have a fun trip
_________________
83.5 Westy with Subaru 2.5, 4 spd manual, center seat, COLD A/C on 134a!, Winter camp heated with an Espar B4 gasoline furnace
www.SuperVanagon.com - some stuff I make
Last edited by vanis13 on Sat Jul 10, 2021 6:06 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jake de Villiers
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2007
Posts: 5911
Location: Tsawwassen, BC
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32632
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16883
Location: sticksville, ct.
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 5:36 pm Post subject: Re: All new clutch/shift/trans. Not shifting. What next? |
|
|
| vanis13 wrote: |
3 - yours is a Kennedy (KEP) flywheel Says KEP6500 on the back in your pic so the roller pin pilot bearing is correct...
|
unless they changed something the last 10+ KEP kits i have done have had the sealed roller bearing for the input shaft.
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
vanis13
Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2010
Posts: 3100
Location: ABQ NM USA.... Except when not
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 6:10 pm Post subject: Re: All new clutch/shift/trans. Not shifting. What next? |
|
|
| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| vanis13 wrote: |
3 - yours is a Kennedy (KEP) flywheel Says KEP6500 on the back in your pic so the roller pin pilot bearing is correct...
|
unless they changed something the last 10+ KEP kits i have done have had the sealed roller bearing for the input shaft. |
this one? "PILOT BEARING FOR KENNEDY CONVERSION FLYWHEELS"
https://www.vancafe.com/056105313C-p/056105313c.htm
and thanks for saying something, had me correct my post to Outfront from Burley. the sealed bearing in mine is in red here
https://www.outfrontmotorsports.com/adapter-kits/o...y-flywheel
_________________
83.5 Westy with Subaru 2.5, 4 spd manual, center seat, COLD A/C on 134a!, Winter camp heated with an Espar B4 gasoline furnace
www.SuperVanagon.com - some stuff I make |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16883
Location: sticksville, ct.
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 9:59 pm Post subject: Re: All new clutch/shift/trans. Not shifting. What next? |
|
|
no, not that one 
i'm not saying that isn't what he has but the last bunch i have done from KEP for sure had a sealed bearing.
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Rorke
Samba Member
Joined: August 04, 2016
Posts: 255
Location: Traverse City, MI
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:43 am Post subject: Re: All new clutch/shift/trans. Not shifting. What next? |
|
|
| Sodo wrote: |
Thanks very much for posting the pic and explaining, a lot is learned from others!! |
Sodo, I have a long way to go to catch up to some of the members who make the Samba the Samba.
I have copied much of your stuff. Thanks.
Rorke |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
