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Engine gurus? Tired of Fighting a 2.0
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liquidplumber
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 4:16 pm    Post subject: Engine gurus? Tired of Fighting a 2.0 Reply with quote

First off, thank you to all who take time to post here, I read a lot of your content but rarely ever post. I’m having a problem and running out of hair to pull out…. So, I thought maybe I’d reach out..
here’s what I have. 78 2.0 originally FI. A major fire destroyed the back half of the bus so nothing rubber, plastic, or meltable survived. This is a total redo of everything.
Almost All my engine internals have come from John at aircooled.net. Stock bottom end with Scat C35 camshaft, solid lifters, aluminum pushrods. Proper valve springs and cam gear as I have let John pretty much tell me what I needed to buy…. I very much value his advice. Pertronix SVDA distributor with flamethrower 3.0 ohm coil. Dual weber IDF 40 carbs.. I also had AC.net do their carb set up procedure so as to have a good baseline. 50 idle jets.
Timing Currently set at 8° at idle (but it won’t idle now) Type4store double thrust cam bearing mod too in case it matters.

I have found multiple issues along the way and thought I finally found the issue that was keeping me from running right. The little “seats” that the mixture screws sit in, 3 of the 4 had pulled out of the carb body and were stuck on the mixture needle. So any amount of my tuning wasn’t doing anything. It was very frustrating to try and tune something that simply would not respond. It actually would idle…. But it ran terrible. So I’ve now fixed that issue as well. I think that was just a poor fit issue with weber as these screws have NEVER been tightened with anything other than my fingers.

So here’s where I’m at… I’ve worked on engines my whole life, my elderly father has too and we’re at a loss for why this thing just won’t run right. Compression is good, valve adjustment is at 006 cold. Plugs have been replaced several times as they’ve looked fouled (too much fuel).. but too much fuel makes sense when I found the little seats for the mix screws stuck on the needles…
I’ve followed the basic carb set up a dozen times now. 1-1/2 on mix screws, touch the idle set screw and add 1/2 turn… ive hooked a vacuum gauge to be sure we aren’t opening the progression holes. But this thing just won’t run.
Today after correcting the mix screw seat issue, I can not get an idle at all.. no matter what I do… everything from 1/2 turn out to 8 turns out…. Won’t idle.

Before I found the mix screw issue it would run and idle… but it would hunt.. a short test drive resulted in severe bogging and sputtering and what I would describe as choking and gagging.. I did manage to get some RPM up one time and the engine snapped to life…. It went like mad!!!

I keep going back to basics and nothing “seems” wrong.. but it won’t run right to save my life. I will say that during the course of this build I have been disappointed multiple times with the quality of products I have bought.. I hate to think that new parts could be to blame, but I keep finding issues with things I buy for the project. I am now at about $15k in total for everything I’ve put into it, and along the way some parts have been less than good right out of the box… so I believe it is possible something new that should work, just isn’t…. And I am willing to throw money at it to solve it, but I’m at a loss now for why this thing just won’t run right.…. Also, Nate from Wagenswest told me I had 8 weeks to wait on my suspension, and I’d really like to have it running properly when his stuff arrives in a few more weeks 😃👍

So, if anyone wants to help… I’d appreciate it.. it is not making sense to me at this point. Surely someone else has a similar build or has dealt with a similar problem. Thank you to all who take their time.
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RalphWiggam
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine gurus? Tired of Fighting a 2.0 Reply with quote

Positive you got the cam and crank dots lined up correctly?

Plug wires in correct order?

Sounds like a carb issue to me though. Any chance you can send them back to ACN and have them go over them again? I'm pretty sure those needle seats aren't supposed to move around like you said. I've been running 4 sets of weber 40s for over 23 years combined and have never seen loose needle seats like you describe.

I'd bet there is an issue with the idle circuits since you said one time you most likely got it up to the main circuits and it took off.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine gurus? Tired of Fighting a 2.0 Reply with quote

what is your fuel pressure and volume?

have you reached out to john for jetting help?
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine gurus? Tired of Fighting a 2.0 Reply with quote

Quote:
Stock bottom end with Scat C35 camshaft

cup your hands around each carb top about a foot away and slowly bring your hands closer to the carb throat. Does the idle get better or worse? It should be almost neutral until your hands start to act as chokes. Adjust the mixture to get it right. Balance the carbs after that.

If that doesn't help raise your idle speed up to about 1400 RPM and see if that helps. You chose a C35 cam with 285 degrees of duration. That duration is what you would find on an off-road racing engine, or a weekend road track engine that spends much of its life above 4000+ RPM. That is why it ran so well at speed. Slowly lower the RPM until it runs and transitions off idle reasonably. Be light on the clutch. 2L flywheels are cast iron not steel. They weren't made for constant high RPMs.

We used to run cams between 295 degrees and 310 degrees for single lobe profile racing engines in the late 70's that turned 6,000 to 10,000 RPM. Typically the idle RPM on those had to be up around 1800 to 2000 RPM or the reversion would bog the engine down leaving on a standing start.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine gurus? Tired of Fighting a 2.0 Reply with quote

Thanks guys.. fuel pressure 3.0 PSI. Good volume, but I haven’t measured it.
I am Absolutely positive the cam and crank gear dots are lined up correctly.

The mix needle seat was for sure a huge problem. And it was 3 of 4 of them. TBH, it seemed the anodizing on the needles was a bit sketchy too. Like it was just flaking off. .
. I've cleaned them with extremely fine cloth and I believe them to be ok….. but I’m considering buying new ones just to be sure.

SGkent, I’m assuming you’re thinking too much air? The only way I could get an idle at 1400 would be to crank the idle stop screws way down…. Well past where they should be. Right now I can only keep it running by having the linkage open enough to expose the progression holes.

No I have not reached out to John… I’m reluctant to bother him with this.. he’s a busy guy and I don’t want to abuse his willingness to give advice.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 7:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine gurus? Tired of Fighting a 2.0 Reply with quote

liquidplumber wrote:


No I have not reached out to John… I’m reluctant to bother him with this.. he’s a busy guy and I don’t want to abuse his willingness to give advice.


john is a good guy. give him as much info as possible. you may write a phone book and he may reply with 1 word answers. he's a good dude and if you bought from him, he for sure will help

or, move this post over to the performance section
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gprudenciop wrote:

my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese.......
[email protected] wrote:
most VW enthusiasts are stuck in 80's price land.

Jake Raby wrote:
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public.

Brian wrote:
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 7:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine gurus? Tired of Fighting a 2.0 Reply with quote

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liquidplumber wrote:


No I have not reached out to John… I’m reluctant to bother him with this.. he’s a busy guy and I don’t want to abuse his willingness to give advice.


john is a good guy. give him as much info as possible. you may write a phone book and he may reply with 1 word answers. he's a good dude and if you bought from him, he for sure will help


This. I’ve “known” John since I was “sneaks” using RAMVWA on USENET doing dialup. I remember when he started the website, we talked extensively about online carts back in the late 90s. His passion, knowledge, and most importantly - his dedication - is what his reputation is built on. Yes, he’s busy. Yes, he can be, ummm, economical with his replies. But, if I was you, that’s where I would start.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine gurus? Tired of Fighting a 2.0 Reply with quote

Quote:
I’m assuming you’re thinking too much air?

no - I am thinking that you put a competition camshaft into a daily driver and are now dealing with the consequences of that decision. I really don't think that 285 degrees duration is going to idle at 900 rpm although you can try. You probably don't have enough vacuum to keep the air column moving into the cylinders at a stock idle so if you get the mixture dialed in as low as it will idle, then raise the idle speed until it idles properly, and doesn't gasp you can live with the idle issue. That is how we dealt with it in the competition engines we built and ran. From my experience in that time period, about 265 - 273 degrees was the max duration for a car that would idle almost like stock but lope just a tiny bit with lots of tuning work. The RPM range on those required a heavy foot to keep them happy if they weren't tuned properly - and you have more duration than that on a C35.

Below is a page from an old Isky catalog showing Porsche T4 grinds and the duration. Notice that you bought a cam with even more duration than an Isky type 4 competition cam. You wanted more power so John probably sold you a cam with more power. These are single lobe cams, not late Honda engineered multiple duration cams like the VTech engine families that perform from idle to the rev limiter. The 95 HP Porsche 912e / 914-4 cam from the 2L GD European T IV motor in the 1970's only ran 247 I /242 E duration because anything more and people complain about flat spots off an idle you would expect on the street. Somehow I feel like I am wasting my time here. Good luck with the project.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine gurus? Tired of Fighting a 2.0 Reply with quote

The pertronics SVDA John sold you sends up a red flag. I’ve had issues with these Chinese made distributors. Keep in mind that John is in the selling parts business. I’m not going to bad mouth him here but unlike most of us here, John buys and sells parts that are currently produced for a profit whereas other here like myself recommend the best parts we know of independent of the source (which might well be rebuilt original German and superior to new parts).

I’ve gotten good advice from John. That said, there is more to be left unsaid right now.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine gurus? Tired of Fighting a 2.0 Reply with quote

SGKent wrote:
Somehow I feel like I am wasting my time here. Good luck with the project.


jeezus Steve. no need to be a downer. that's my job

G-unit is right. ACN sells parts. his advice is usually sound....usually.

when it comes to a build like this i think it's a mistake not to post in the forum and your expectations of the build.

having said that he could have given you a recipe for what HE would build, not necessarily what would work. he may like a 1500 idle an a wap wap wap wap wap out of the exhaust. that is why tossing out your plan usually works well....get a bunch of replies, sort thru the shit and compile a list for approval by those who have gone before you

having said that, drop him a message and see what he says. i was moderately let down by him and his choice of rings for a personal build.

long story short the oil control rings were horrible and it drank oil. posting this after the fact 9 out of 10 forum members were like "bro, those rings SUCK"

live an learn....
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gprudenciop wrote:

my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese.......
[email protected] wrote:
most VW enthusiasts are stuck in 80's price land.

Jake Raby wrote:
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public.

Brian wrote:
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 4:34 am    Post subject: Re: Engine gurus? Tired of Fighting a 2.0 Reply with quote

John has helped me on 3 engine builds. The latest which I just finished is a stock 2.0. John recommended 2 different webcams and the Scat C25. I went with the C25. I went back with solid lifters and did away with the hydralic. I also run the weber 40's which John setup for me and I run the Pertronic 2 034 distributors in all 3 engines. One thing I have found running these Pertronics they tend to like a little more advance on the timing. The 2.0 I just finished has about a 100 miles on it. I ran this engine on my test stand to break in the cam. I setup my timing at 28 degree @ 3500 rpm to begin with but that caused a flat spot when getting on the gas. I've bumped the timing to 32 which will put your idle around 12, 12.5. Doing this helped my engine but all engines are different and I'm sure you will get different feedback on timing.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 5:26 am    Post subject: Re: Engine gurus? Tired of Fighting a 2.0 Reply with quote

SGkent. I get what you’re saying but here’s where I take issue. The engine started and idled and ran ok (not perfect) BEFORE I found the issue with the needle seats. TBH idle was pretty good. Tach indicted about 1050. It would idle all day long. Yes it would hunt a little. Yes it had a bit of lope to it. But it would idle and run.
So, I don’t buy into the “it isn’t ever going to run right due to competition Cam” line of thinking. Lots of guys on these pages run the C35 or the Engle 110 which is very very similar. In their daily driver, around town VWs.

Also, there would be no way to set idle speed where you ask without opening the progression holes… which is a no no according to all.

I’m not saying you’re wrong. I’m saying I don’t think you’re considering the info I’ve given and just jumping to “the cam is too much”. It is my understanding that the c25 would be similar to stock IF this was an originally carbureted bus and the C35 would be a performance grind past that. Not necessarily some inconceivably huge grind. I could be wrong, but that’s my understanding.

So here’s what’s puzzling me… if it ran and idled with the needle seats stuck on the needles and pulling them out of the carb body…. Why won’t it run with that corrected? Cam grind doesn’t really explain that. The fact that it won’t idle with any setting on mixture screws and the progression holes have to be opened via very mild throttle is really what appears to be the problem at this point. And it seems your advice is to just run it that way?
Don’t get me wrong… I asked for help so I value what you’re saying… and I’ve seen you all over these pages. I’m just wondering if you’re not considering the issue and jumping straight to “too much cam”. In the end, if I have to swap it out, I will… but before I do that, I’m stuck trying to figure out why would it idle before but not now…. And since it would idle, doesn’t that mean the cam is in fact ok?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:00 am    Post subject: Re: Engine gurus? Tired of Fighting a 2.0 Reply with quote

I am not a carb expert by any means. In fact I think carbs suck and should only be used as wheel chocks and door stops Laughing Wink ......but I have had a good bit of experience over the years with carbs anyway.

Watching this thread and reading your last post you have a very good point. It ran moderately well.....then the needle seats came out....now it does not.

You answered your own question I think. I have had this issue decades ago......and its a vague memory so treat this as pure speculation. Mixture screw needle seats do not just "come out" attached to the needle.

If they do.....its usually because the needle was seated too tightly. This pretty much swages the needle into the seat....and its a tapered needle right? Wink ......this can swage the seat oversize......and make it where the needle can no longer accurately meter in that seat combination.

Just something to think about. Last time I had a needle seat come out stuck to the needle....had to be mid 80s.....that carb was fubar and never ran again until I took it down to a shop to have everything I screwed up....fixed. Laughing

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:32 am    Post subject: Re: Engine gurus? Tired of Fighting a 2.0 Reply with quote

also not a carb expert, but woudnt a seat that came out stuck to the needle mean that the needle was FULLY seated in the seat, not letting ANY fuel in?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:32 am    Post subject: Re: Engine gurus? Tired of Fighting a 2.0 Reply with quote

also not a carb expert, but woudnt a seat that came out stuck to the needle mean that the needle was FULLY seated in the seat, not letting ANY fuel in?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:32 am    Post subject: Re: Engine gurus? Tired of Fighting a 2.0 Reply with quote

you very well could have a carb issue, no doubt. you may want to send them out to someone who can help dial them in.

that said.... years ago when i didn't value my time i'd fight stuff like this. then after doing some math i found it was well worth it to send stuff like this out to be corrected.

not saying you can't DIY, just ask yourself what is your time/frustration worth.

SG's concern is valid. you could have some reversion in the intake tract causing issues.

also, how is your brake booster plumbed in? if you cap it off do things get better? you really could have a bad booster causing issues with a vacuum leak
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gprudenciop wrote:

my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese.......
[email protected] wrote:
most VW enthusiasts are stuck in 80's price land.

Jake Raby wrote:
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public.

Brian wrote:
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:03 am    Post subject: Re: Engine gurus? Tired of Fighting a 2.0 Reply with quote

The needle seat being stuck to the needle would just pull out of its hole as you threaded the mixture screw out. So I do not know if it would just seal off the flow like a closed needle…… or if when the seat is being pulled out it would just let some random amount of fuel go past. Hard to know… right?

As to time and trouble… I’m a “semi retired” service plumber. So I make my own schedule…. I’m also doing this project with my 80 year old father… so the time isn’t the issue… and getting to spend it with my dad has been good for both of us and fun. Can’t get it running right tho from various issues has been frustrating… some of those issues have been ours. Some have been product issues. But the combined total of issues causing trouble has been pretty high so it is starting to get frustrating.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 2:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine gurus? Tired of Fighting a 2.0 Reply with quote

[email protected] wrote:
SGKent wrote:
Somehow I feel like I am wasting my time here. Good luck with the project.


jeezus Steve. no need to be a downer. that's my job

G-unit is right. ACN sells parts. his advice is usually sound....usually.

when it comes to a build like this i think it's a mistake not to post in the forum and your expectations of the build.

having said that he could have given you a recipe for what HE would build, not necessarily what would work. he may like a 1500 idle an a wap wap wap wap wap out of the exhaust. that is why tossing out your plan usually works well....get a bunch of replies, sort thru the shit and compile a list for approval by those who have gone before you

having said that, drop him a message and see what he says. i was moderately let down by him and his choice of rings for a personal build.

long story short the oil control rings were horrible and it drank oil. posting this after the fact 9 out of 10 forum members were like "bro, those rings SUCK"

live an learn....

I told the OP how to attack his problem in a way that will solve it but he has cotton in his ears. It is common these days. Cathy spent close to a month trying to train a new fellow grant manager at the state that a canceled check was proof of payment. The new college grad they hired had no idea what a canceled check was even though she was hired in at a salary most of you would be envious of just coming out of college. As I said to the OP, hope it works out. I would not want an engine in my bus with a competition cam grind. It will never run like a fine clock in a 4000 lb utility truck. John should not have recommended it. But John, although he is a great guy, thinks different than I do. I put winning racing engines in race cars, and fine performance engines in fine street cars. I don't get the two confused.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 2:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine gurus? Tired of Fighting a 2.0 Reply with quote

Wait hold up. Are you talking about a seat coming out of the idle mixture screw? Or with the idle jet itself.

2 totally different things.

This?

https://vwparts.aircooled.net/Weber-IDF-Idle-Mixture-Seat-Repair-Kit-CB6381-p/cb6381.htm

I don't see this part on any 40idf parts diagrams.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 4:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine gurus? Tired of Fighting a 2.0 Reply with quote

RalphWiggam wrote:
Wait hold up. Are you talking about a seat coming out of the idle mixture screw? Or with the idle jet itself.

2 totally different things.

This?

https://vwparts.aircooled.net/Weber-IDF-Idle-Mixture-Seat-Repair-Kit-CB6381-p/cb6381.htm

I don't see this part on any 40idf parts diagrams.


Yes. Those. 3 of the 4 mixture screws. Never tightened with a tool. Fingers only.
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