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Jason0115
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Joined: April 11, 2021
Posts: 97
Location: New Jersey
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 Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 7:49 pm Post subject: Do I need to re-coat fuel tank? |
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After the video I emptied the rest of the fuel, but from the looks of it do I need to degrease, remove rust, por fuel coat, etc. tank, or is it not bad enough to put back in and fill up? Thanks!
Here is the youtube video of the inside of tank
Link
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aeromech
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Joined: January 24, 2006
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Location: San Diego, California
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| Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 8:57 pm Post subject: Re: Do I need to re-coat fuel tank? |
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Do not put a coating inside
Take it to a radiator shop that will hot tank and boil it out. Costs me about $150 here in San Diego.
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BUSBOSS
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Location: Northern California
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| Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 9:48 pm Post subject: Re: Do I need to re-coat fuel tank? |
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I would do a muriatic acid bath and phospho coat to that tank. It is in pretty good shape and does not need a POR15 coating IMHO. I have used POR15 for multiple applications including fuel and never had a problem. Strict adherence to the POR instructions is where most consumers fall down.
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aeromech
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Joined: January 24, 2006
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Location: San Diego, California
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| Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 9:53 pm Post subject: Re: Do I need to re-coat fuel tank? |
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I have no experience with coating fuel tanks. My opinion is from reading numerous horror stories from people who did
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richparker
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Joined: November 24, 2011
Posts: 6983
Location: Durango, CO
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 3:17 am Post subject: Re: Do I need to re-coat fuel tank? |
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As Aeromech stated, you should avoid coating the tank. Although I have never done it, there are a lot of horror stories in the forum. I don’t think the tank looks that bad. I have good luck with mineral spirits or acetone. I would remove the sock, reinstall the Spicket with a short piece of crimped hose on the end (I usually just stick a pencil in the hose). Pour some spirts in the tank with a couple links of chain and slosh it around. The chain will help break up some of the rust. Drain, remove chain and soak with more spirts.
There other techniques out there that work as well. Maybe try searching YouTube for some ideas.
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RWK
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Joined: June 24, 2009
Posts: 1349
Location: S.W. MI
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 4:29 am Post subject: Re: Do I need to re-coat fuel tank? |
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I had my bug tank coated professionally, it was ok until it stated to flake off, it was like latex paint floating around,caused huge problems trying to figure out why it wouldn't run right, never suspected the tank!, and filter wasn't seeing anything, it choked off the outlet screen. It did last almost 20 years so can't complain too much.
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richparker
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
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Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 4:43 am Post subject: Re: Do I need to re-coat fuel tank? |
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Your tank does not look bad enough to coat. If you have no actual leaks and pinholes....gou do not need coating.
Two ways to go about this from those who answered in this thread....and all are correct:
As aeromech noted......if its really crusty and you do not have time or skills to remove it....take it to a radiator shop. They will use either an acid or a caustic and high tempeeature. Both can/will remove the rust.
However the next stage....unless they offer this for you.....is for you to do. Neutralize tne rust with a phosphoric acid product like Ospho. Then you are done.
As BUSBOSS noted.....and if you are careful and understand and properly dispose of acids.....using muriatic acid to FULLY strip the rust inside.....rinse.....then letting it flash rust for a couple of days.....then converting, neutralizing and sealing the surface with a layer of iron phosphate by simply applying a phosphoric acid solution and letting it dry for 24 hours.......is ideal.
The problem with tank sealers is that almost all of them are an epoxy or a catalyzed polyester or urethane blend of some sort. Just like with catalyzed auto paint primer or any kind of epoxy......the surface prep work and degreasing and priming.....must be immaculate.
If you cannot guarantee that.....you cannot guarantee it will stay on. Also all of these coatings are susceptible to shelf age, excessive moisture during mixing and curing, freezing damage in storage and can be weakened through cross linking ic VOC fumes get mixed in durimg mixing.
Ray
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cmonSTART
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Joined: July 15, 2014
Posts: 1915
Location: NH
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 5:49 am Post subject: Re: Do I need to re-coat fuel tank? |
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I use coatings all the time in the motorcycle world, but I would never consider one for a Bus.
You can buy a new aftermarket tank for relatively cheap money which will be better than anything you try to clean and coat. Get a good used tank or buy a new aftermarket one and call it a day.
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Jason0115
Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2021
Posts: 97
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:19 pm Post subject: Re: Do I need to re-coat fuel tank? |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
Your tank does not look bad enough to coat. If you have no actual leaks and pinholes....gou do not need coating.
Two ways to go about this from those who answered in this thread....and all are correct:
As aeromech noted......if its really crusty and you do not have time or skills to remove it....take it to a radiator shop. They will use either an acid or a caustic and high tempeeature. Both can/will remove the rust.
However the next stage....unless they offer this for you.....is for you to do. Neutralize tne rust with a phosphoric acid product like Ospho. Then you are done.
As BUSBOSS noted.....and if you are careful and understand and properly dispose of acids.....using muriatic acid to FULLY strip the rust inside.....rinse.....then letting it flash rust for a couple of days.....then converting, neutralizing and sealing the surface with a layer of iron phosphate by simply applying a phosphoric acid solution and letting it dry for 24 hours.......is ideal.
The problem with tank sealers is that almost all of them are an epoxy or a catalyzed polyester or urethane blend of some sort. Just like with catalyzed auto paint primer or any kind of epoxy......the surface prep work and degreasing and priming.....must be immaculate.
If you cannot guarantee that.....you cannot guarantee it will stay on. Also all of these coatings are susceptible to shelf age, excessive moisture during mixing and curing, freezing damage in storage and can be weakened through cross linking ic VOC fumes get mixed in durimg mixing.
Ray
Ray |
Thanks Ray, and all others who commented. I will not coat then, I'll only clean and remove rust. I will use muriatic acid then rinse with water, then once dried completely I'll use phosphoric acid. I was wondering, is there a difference between the brands like Ospho or the Klean Strip one? Klean strip is cheaper, does it make a difference which I pick? Also, once it is dried, should I rinse one more time I just don't want the phosphoric solution to mix with any gas. |
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aeromech
Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006
Posts: 16971
Location: San Diego, California
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| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:22 pm Post subject: Re: Do I need to re-coat fuel tank? |
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New Jersey doesn’t have radiator shops?
_________________
Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:33 pm Post subject: Re: Do I need to re-coat fuel tank? |
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| Jason0115 wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
Your tank does not look bad enough to coat. If you have no actual leaks and pinholes....gou do not need coating.
Two ways to go about this from those who answered in this thread....and all are correct:
As aeromech noted......if its really crusty and you do not have time or skills to remove it....take it to a radiator shop. They will use either an acid or a caustic and high tempeeature. Both can/will remove the rust.
However the next stage....unless they offer this for you.....is for you to do. Neutralize tne rust with a phosphoric acid product like Ospho. Then you are done.
As BUSBOSS noted.....and if you are careful and understand and properly dispose of acids.....using muriatic acid to FULLY strip the rust inside.....rinse.....then letting it flash rust for a couple of days.....then converting, neutralizing and sealing the surface with a layer of iron phosphate by simply applying a phosphoric acid solution and letting it dry for 24 hours.......is ideal.
The problem with tank sealers is that almost all of them are an epoxy or a catalyzed polyester or urethane blend of some sort. Just like with catalyzed auto paint primer or any kind of epoxy......the surface prep work and degreasing and priming.....must be immaculate.
If you cannot guarantee that.....you cannot guarantee it will stay on. Also all of these coatings are susceptible to shelf age, excessive moisture during mixing and curing, freezing damage in storage and can be weakened through cross linking ic VOC fumes get mixed in durimg mixing.
Ray
Ray |
Thanks Ray, and all others who commented. I will not coat then, I'll only clean and remove rust. I will use muriatic acid then rinse with water, then once dried completely I'll use phosphoric acid. I was wondering, is there a difference between the brands like Ospho or the Klean Strip one? Klean strip is cheaper, does it make a difference which I pick? Also, once it is dried, should I rinse one more time I just don't want the phosphoric solution to mix with any gas. |
That depends on which Klean strip product.
This one should be just as good as Ospho....from what I see in the SDS sheet. Read the directions. Some of these need to be diluted if you are "treating" or surface converting rust which is your final stage.
https://www.menards.com/main/paint/solvents-cleane...268709.htm
Others...like the original Jasco ...have a high solution strength. It will REMOVE all rust down to the metal....similar to muriatic acid. But because it removes all metal...there is no rust left to convert to iron phosphate to protect the metal.
The directions for if you were just converting rust was to dilute it 2:1 with water
Klean strip has several. One is listed as concrete and metal ...the one I listed above...one is listed as Klean strip Phosphoric prep and etch
https://images.homedepot-static.com/catalog/pdfImages/ac/ac25e93c-5593-4186-8d9f-4c179c8f8b60.pdf
According to the data sheets they are approximately similar.
Ray |
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Jason0115
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Joined: April 11, 2021
Posts: 97
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 6:32 am Post subject: Re: Do I need to re-coat fuel tank? |
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| aeromech wrote: |
| New Jersey doesn’t have radiator shops? |
I believe they do, but I would rather spend less $ and do it myself if I can. |
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Jason0115
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Joined: April 11, 2021
Posts: 97
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 1:09 pm Post subject: Re: Do I need to re-coat fuel tank? |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
Klean strip has several. One is listed as concrete and metal ...the one I listed above...one is listed as Klean strip Phosphoric prep and etch
According to the data sheets they are approximately similar.
|
Thanks Ray, I read the link above from the thread and your responses. I have two questions I hope you or someone can answer. Is my tank rusty enough for me to do any of this, or can I just put it back in and not worry about it.
Second question, I feel like I should remove the rust, so what would you change about my process?. My process after reading the replies will be as follows:
Step 1: Pour 2 quarts total - 1:1 water to 31.45% muriatic acid in the tank, swish around for a while, then rise with hose water. I'll let it sit for 24-48 hrs and flash rust, only air drying, no leaf blower or hair dryer here.
Step 2: I'll take Klean Strip Concrete & Metal Prep & Etch and dilute 2:1 - 2 prep & etch to 1 water. 2 quarts of this mix pour in, swish around for a while, then let it sit, rotating the tank over every 10 min or so for several hours. Pour it out, then dry with leaf blower.
Step 3: Once dried, I'll take 2 stroke fuel (or can I just use gas?) and put it in the tank, swish all around to coat the whole tank, then dump it out after a while. I would hope this would remove any residue left from the klean strip phosphorus solution. Then hopefully, this is it and I can put gas in and go.
Muriatic acid I'll use: https://www.lowes.com/pd/Kem-Tek-2-Gallon-Muriatic-Acid/4570022
Phosphoric acid I'll use https://www.lowes.com/pd/Klean-Strip-Concrete-and-Metal-Prep-1-GAL/1001456348 |
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tonysantacruz
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Joined: June 16, 2016
Posts: 245
Location: Mexico
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 3:42 pm Post subject: Re: Do I need to re-coat fuel tank? |
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I bought a new tank and called it a day. I heard too many horror stories about coating coming loose and I didn’t trust the radiator guys here to fix mine.
https://www.busdepot.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=Fuel+tank
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:37 pm Post subject: Re: Do I need to re-coat fuel tank? |
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| Jason0115 wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
Klean strip has several. One is listed as concrete and metal ...the one I listed above...one is listed as Klean strip Phosphoric prep and etch
According to the data sheets they are approximately similar.
|
Thanks Ray, I read the link above from the thread and your responses. I have two questions I hope you or someone can answer. Is my tank rusty enough for me to do any of this, or can I just put it back in and not worry about it.
Second question, I feel like I should remove the rust, so what would you change about my process?. My process after reading the replies will be as follows:
Step 1: Pour 2 quarts total - 1:1 water to 31.45% muriatic acid in the tank, swish around for a while, then rise with hose water. I'll let it sit for 24-48 hrs and flash rust, only air drying, no leaf blower or hair dryer here.
Step 2: I'll take Klean Strip Concrete & Metal Prep & Etch and dilute 2:1 - 2 prep & etch to 1 water. 2 quarts of this mix pour in, swish around for a while, then let it sit, rotating the tank over every 10 min or so for several hours. Pour it out, then dry with leaf blower.
Step 3: Once dried, I'll take 2 stroke fuel (or can I just use gas?) and put it in the tank, swish all around to coat the whole tank, then dump it out after a while. I would hope this would remove any residue left from the klean strip phosphorus solution. Then hopefully, this is it and I can put gas in and go.
Muriatic acid I'll use: https://www.lowes.com/pd/Kem-Tek-2-Gallon-Muriatic-Acid/4570022
Phosphoric acid I'll use https://www.lowes.com/pd/Klean-Strip-Concrete-and-Metal-Prep-1-GAL/1001456348 |
A couple of items:
First a warning. If you are not prepared and careful and maybe a little practiced with using muriatic acid....you "might" pass on that step. If you fully understand that you MUST use a respirator with acid/gas cartridges (I can can give you a Grainger part # for a nice 3M half mask with cartridges for about $20)...and gloves...and some cross ventilation and do this outside ....and add know to only add acid to water and NEVER the reverse....and always wear safety goggles and not just glasses.....cool!
Just had to give a warning!
1. First try to take some pictures and categorize what kind of rust you have. If its just big flaky rust that can be knocked loose or tight surface rust....stay with your planned method.
2. If its tight and crusty surface rust.....I would not dilute the muriatic acid with water. You will need all of the solution strength you can get and you can use lower volumes of liquid at one time and more easily control where it goes and have less spills.
Pour in about a quart of straight acid and try to slowly move teh tank around to get everything wet for as long as possible. Get the big stuff this way. Then you can use some diluted acid to get better coverage....but I would not use 1:1 or 50/50. The commercial home store acids are getting weaker by the year. Try 3:1 acid to water.
3. Or...and you may test this....but full strength prep and etch...if its as strong as I think it is.....WILL dissolve the rust just like muriatic acid. ...but i safer to use.
You might use 2 quarts to dissolve the big stuff. Just rinse....no drying. Then a quart of full strength muriatic acid or even 3:1 will do fine. This stage is to cause flash rust reaction. Rinse and then let it dry. Let it surface rust....then use the diluted phosphoric solution to convert the flash rust....then continue with your oiling.
But...really...if you are just going to install it and fill it with fuel you can skip the oil. Ray |
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Jason0115
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Joined: April 11, 2021
Posts: 97
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 6:46 am Post subject: Re: Do I need to re-coat fuel tank? |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
A couple of items:
First a warning. If you are not prepared and careful and maybe a little practiced with using muriatic acid....you "might" pass on that step. If you fully understand that you MUST use a respirator with acid/gas cartridges (I can can give you a Grainger part # for a nice 3M half mask with cartridges for about $20)...and gloves...and some cross ventilation and do this outside ....and add know to only add acid to water and NEVER the reverse....and always wear safety goggles and not just glasses.....cool!
Just had to give a warning!
1. First try to take some pictures and categorize what kind of rust you have. If its just big flaky rust that can be knocked loose or tight surface rust....stay with your planned method.
2. If its tight and crusty surface rust.....I would not dilute the muriatic acid with water. You will need all of the solution strength you can get and you can use lower volumes of liquid at one time and more easily control where it goes and have less spills.
Pour in about a quart of straight acid and try to slowly move teh tank around to get everything wet for as long as possible. Get the big stuff this way. Then you can use some diluted acid to get better coverage....but I would not use 1:1 or 50/50. The commercial home store acids are getting weaker by the year. Try 3:1 acid to water.
3. Or...and you may test this....but full strength prep and etch...if its as strong as I think it is.....WILL dissolve the rust just like muriatic acid. ...but i safer to use.
You might use 2 quarts to dissolve the big stuff. Just rinse....no drying. Then a quart of full strength muriatic acid or even 3:1 will do fine. This stage is to cause flash rust reaction. Rinse and then let it dry. Let it surface rust....then use the diluted phosphoric solution to convert the flash rust....then continue with your oiling.
But...really...if you are just going to install it and fill it with fuel you can skip the oil. Ray |
I will take all precautions...sure I'll get the half mask if you recommend. It seem to be lighter surface rust. In #3 you are saying use prep and etch, then muratic, then diluted prep and etch again as the phosphorus solution?
I think I will stick with the original plan, but change a few things. Make the muratic acid slightly stronger with less water, then let air dry. Once I use the prep & etch to convert the flash rust, and I empty it from the tank, will it leave any residue or can I just put gas in it right away and pump that gas into engine? Maybe I should swish around gas then empty to pick up any residue, then fill it up and go? |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:10 am Post subject: Re: Do I need to re-coat fuel tank? |
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Yes...your original method is fine....just dont dilute the muriatic acid so much.
Other minor issue. Skip the leaf blower drying. You need the drying time factor. The surface needs time after both acids to react. Do not QUICKLY blow this dry. You can blow off heavy excess....but it needs to stay WET and dry naturally.
After the muriatic acid.....just a quick rinse with water ....shake out excess....let dry. The longer it dries....usually the more flash rust you get. If I dont get enough flash rust or its not even.....I acid wash again.....just a quick one.....then rinse....then flash rust time.
When you use the phosphoric acid.....same basic process but it NEEDS 24 hours of drying/reaction time. This is the mistake most people make with phoaphoric acid conversion.
A. They rinse it off. Dont do that.
B. they get in a hurry. It needs reaction time and it needs to dry hard.
There should not be any water rinse after the phosphoric acid and before this 24 hour dry period.
Once that 24 hour period is done....look into the tank for blackish blue converted metal and no visible rust. If that's the case....give it a quick rinse with water and install it and fill it up with fuel. Nothing special to be done.
Ray |
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Jason0115
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Posts: 97
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 6:21 pm Post subject: Re: Do I need to re-coat fuel tank? |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
Yes...your original method is fine....just dont dilute the muriatic acid so much.
Other minor issue. Skip the leaf blower drying. You need the drying time factor. The surface needs time after both acids to react. Do not QUICKLY blow this dry. You can blow off heavy excess....but it needs to stay WET and dry naturally.
After the muriatic acid.....just a quick rinse with water ....shake out excess....let dry. The longer it dries....usually the more flash rust you get. If I dont get enough flash rust or its not even.....I acid wash again.....just a quick one.....then rinse....then flash rust time.
When you use the phosphoric acid.....same basic process but it NEEDS 24 hours of drying/reaction time. This is the mistake most people make with phoaphoric acid conversion.
A. They rinse it off. Dont do that.
B. they get in a hurry. It needs reaction time and it needs to dry hard.
There should not be any water rinse after the phosphoric acid and before this 24 hour dry period.
Once that 24 hour period is done....look into the tank for blackish blue converted metal and no visible rust. If that's the case....give it a quick rinse with water and install it and fill it up with fuel. Nothing special to be done.
Ray |
I appreciate the help. I got all the chemicals and I rinsed out the rest of the gas in the tank with hose. But once I rinsed it out, I almost feel like for the amount of very light surface rust I might not do all of this right now and just put the tank in and check my filters to make sure nothing bad is coming through. I felt the tank with my finger and it is smooth not rough or anything where you can see the visual rust. Here’s another video of the tank rinsed out, do you think this small amount of rust is a concern if I just put it back in and go with it? It looks very insignificant but I know rust doesn’t sleep. I also am running a carb not FI system.
https://youtube.com/shorts/qE_d2Tj_oVI?feature=share |
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Jrh5r
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Location: East coast
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| Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2021 8:15 pm Post subject: Re: Do I need to re-coat fuel tank? |
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I had an 83 sl380 tank sent off to a place in Pennsylvania. They professionally cleaned it, cut it apart, put an ID tag on it and gave me a life time warranty. That’s been years ago. I can dig up the info if you’d like. Small fortune to send it, but was worth it.
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