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1951 Deluxe Micro Bus discovered - Second Oldest Samba
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EmpiGT
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 4:47 pm    Post subject: Re: 1951 Deluxe Micro Bus discovered - Second Oldest Samba Reply with quote

Mark is a great craftsman. Wish he was on this side of the pond. Looking great!
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Florian Kalff
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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2021 8:14 am    Post subject: Re: 1951 Deluxe Micro Bus discovered - Second Oldest Samba Reply with quote

Hi everyone,


here we go with a new post!


best regards

Florian

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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2021 2:14 pm    Post subject: Re: 1951 Deluxe Micro Bus discovered - Second Oldest Samba Reply with quote

thanks for sharing Florian. Impressive work by Mark.

Oh, and thanks for sharing the Oval story. My first car was 59. came out of a junkyard. In the 80s.
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PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2021 3:08 am    Post subject: Re: 1951 Deluxe Micro Bus discovered - Second Oldest Samba Reply with quote

post like these bring back memories of my life as a VW nut....
especially the "triage"...
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Florian Kalff
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:23 am    Post subject: Re: 1951 Deluxe Micro Bus discovered - Second Oldest Samba Reply with quote

Good morning,


if you like, start your weekend with a new post in my blog. Very Happy


have fun!

Florian
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 12:13 pm    Post subject: Re: 1951 Deluxe Micro Bus discovered - Second Oldest Samba Reply with quote

Very nice - The progress is almost unbelievable.

You say the sunroof is next, I'm interested to know if the sunroof assembly and parts are different from later models.
If the parts were still in some "prototype" stage in 1951.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 3:49 pm    Post subject: Re: 1951 Deluxe Micro Bus discovered - Second Oldest Samba Reply with quote

That’s amazing skills he has Florian!
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2021 5:19 pm    Post subject: Re: 1951 Deluxe Micro Bus discovered - Second Oldest Samba Reply with quote

Looking good from all angles!!
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Lowdown Dirty Rat
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 12:04 pm    Post subject: Re: 1951 Deluxe Micro Bus discovered - Second Oldest Samba Reply with quote

EverettB wrote:
Very nice - The progress is almost unbelievable.

You say the sunroof is next, I'm interested to know if the sunroof assembly and parts are different from later models.
If the parts were still in some "prototype" stage in 1951.


I would be surprised if there are any 51 specific differences, although I know there are pre-53 sunroof differences.
When I had my 51 and 52 deluxe together I tried to compare as many body parts as possible and I really couldn’t find anything different. Yes the dash ashtray is different and the colour scheme but that really was about it (aside from the expected T2 monthly progressive refinements you’d expect). There really is no real difference physically between a 51 and 52 deluxe. But many many differences to a 53. As I have mentioned several times before the type number stamped on the vin plate for a 51 AND 52 deluxe (and not just the alleged 15 window) is 24S. S almost certainly for Sonder meaning special in German (I believe, I don’t speak German Confused ). It seems all early deluxes, 51 and 52 most likely started life as 11 window sunroof on the production line before taking a detour onto the ‘sonder’ line to have extra windows and stuff hand cut and beaten into them. It doesn’t look like they were pressing or mass producing any deluxe parts until 53.
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Florian Kalff
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:03 am    Post subject: Re: 1951 Deluxe Micro Bus discovered - Second Oldest Samba Reply with quote

Yes, a real ´51 Samba (and I am pretty sure all ´52 as well) is always a type 24S. It´s stamped on the VIN tag on my 15448 and on all REAL ´51 deluxes´ VIN-tags I´ve seen so far. It was also mentioned in the original paperworks (Kraftfahrzeugbrief).
You may wonder why it is not mention in the "Geburtsurkunde" (birth certificate) issued by the factory nowadays. In these documents all early Sambas are called "24A". This curiousity is based on your theory that all early Sambas were handmade converted in a "detour". I can confirm this theory (will explain this in future post). In fact ´51 Sambas started their life as type 24 (Kombi with sunroof) BODIES. These bodies had already stamped in VINs, than they took the "detour" and were internaly converted into 24S. The "Geburtsurkunde" is based on the factory´s records where they have collected all "Wagenstammkarten", a file of all cars they ever build. These files were issued when the VIN was stamped into the body, so BEFORE it was decided to converted the type 24 to a type 24S.
The VIN tag, of course, was nailed into the body after painting, so at the end of the internal conversion process. The issuing of the "Kraftfahrzeugbrief" was even later, to be exact, when the car was really finished.
That´s why "24S" is stamped on the VIN-tag and printed in the "Kraftfahrzeugbrief", but not mentioned in the birth certificate.

At least the sunroof of 15448 is cleary kind of "prototype". The front bow was made out of Beetle´s front bow. They just cutted it in halves and welded in a middle piece. You can still see the welding seams. Maybe this changed later in 1951, so it would be interesting to check on regular types 24 earlier then August 1951 if the front bow was made the same way.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2021 11:55 am    Post subject: Re: 1951 Deluxe Micro Bus discovered - Second Oldest Samba Reply with quote

Great stuff Florian. Thanks

I believe my June 52 sunroof is the same. Mark restored it about the same time as yours so he will know for sure.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 6:02 am    Post subject: Re: 1951 Deluxe Micro Bus discovered - Second Oldest Samba Reply with quote

Early '51 deluxes have a slightly different shape to the dash than late '51 deluxes.
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Florian Kalff
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 7:41 am    Post subject: Re: 1951 Deluxe Micro Bus discovered - Second Oldest Samba Reply with quote

Yes, the style of the deluxe dash changed at least twice in 1951. Due to Mark the dash of 15448 is definitely handmade and it is different to a dash of November ´51 I have seen.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 3:08 pm    Post subject: Re: 1951 Deluxe Micro Bus discovered - Second Oldest Samba Reply with quote

Incredible work as always!

I wonder if there is anything left of the white paint under the moss on the roof?
In the more recent pictures there seems to be some very careful and subtle paint blending done onto the decklid, ''the barndoor''. This looks very nice! Does all the newly welded in metal of the body get the same kind of treatment? That would make the bus look stuning, more whole, while all the original paint and patina remains preserved.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 7:12 pm    Post subject: Re: 1951 Deluxe Micro Bus discovered - Second Oldest Samba Reply with quote

I'm really loving this thread. I am glad you didn't listen to the individuals who said it wasn't savable.

I hope this thread gives motivation and hope to two separate owners of two different cut up deep skylight deluxes; that these individuals still own parts to (no knock to them at all), that frequent this forum.
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Florian Kalff
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2021 3:31 am    Post subject: Re: 1951 Deluxe Micro Bus discovered - Second Oldest Samba Reply with quote

ddutch wrote:
Incredible work as always!

I wonder if there is anything left of the white paint under the moss on the roof?
In the more recent pictures there seems to be some very careful and subtle paint blending done onto the decklid, ''the barndoor''. This looks very nice! Does all the newly welded in metal of the body get the same kind of treatment? That would make the bus look stuning, more whole, while all the original paint and patina remains preserved.


Yes, there is still some little of the original white color on the roof remains and sure Mark saved all of them. Thank you for reminding me, I will feature this in one of the next posts regarding some more details of the work on the roof.

Sure we will keep any spot of original color and just respray sheetmetal which was replaced. To do so on the roof is a complicated task, because we lack of the original color code of the roof-specific white. So far I didn´t find any information about this anywhere. Sure we could try a computer analysis of the white in the sky window frames (the white here is still preserved very well at some certain spots!), but I would prefer getting a confirmed information in a factory file showing the color code.
Unfortunately the factory was (beside Björn Schewe!!) not helpful in any way regarding this entire project.
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Florian Kalff
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:50 am    Post subject: Re: 1951 Deluxe Micro Bus discovered - Second Oldest Samba Reply with quote

Good morning everyone,


please forgive me that my newest post is not about the Samba resto, it is about something much more serious. But at least YOU can get a free ride in the Samba in Hessisch-Oldendorf or at the BD-Gathering 2023. Check it out....


best regards

Florian
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:17 pm    Post subject: Re: 1951 Deluxe Micro Bus discovered - Second Oldest Samba Reply with quote

Such a sad situation there. Prayers to all affected.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2021 6:25 am    Post subject: Re: 1951 Deluxe Micro Bus discovered - Second Oldest Samba Reply with quote

Just amazing work to save this bus. I'm lucky enough to not only be a good friend of Marks, but also to have had him work on several of my buses. If I'm honest he's my first, and probably my only real choice here in the UK, for resurrecting such rare old buses and knowing that all details are correct and done right. I really look forward to seeing it completed Florian.

This is very interesting information too, even if it keeps me awake at night ......

Florian Kalff wrote:
Yes, a real ´51 Samba (and I am pretty sure all ´52 as well) is always a type 24S. It´s stamped on the VIN tag on my 15448 and on all REAL ´51 deluxes´ VIN-tags I´ve seen so far. It was also mentioned in the original paperworks (Kraftfahrzeugbrief).
You may wonder why it is not mention in the "Geburtsurkunde" (birth certificate) issued by the factory nowadays. In these documents all early Sambas are called "24A". This curiousity is based on your theory that all early Sambas were handmade converted in a "detour". I can confirm this theory (will explain this in future post). In fact ´51 Sambas started their life as type 24 (Kombi with sunroof) BODIES. These bodies had already stamped in VINs, than they took the "detour" and were internaly converted into 24S. The "Geburtsurkunde" is based on the factory´s records where they have collected all "Wagenstammkarten", a file of all cars they ever build. These files were issued when the VIN was stamped into the body, so BEFORE it was decided to converted the type 24 to a type 24S.
The VIN tag, of course, was nailed into the body after painting, so at the end of the internal conversion process. The issuing of the "Kraftfahrzeugbrief" was even later, to be exact, when the car was really finished.
That´s why "24S" is stamped on the VIN-tag and printed in the "Kraftfahrzeugbrief", but not mentioned in the birth certificate.



I'm a massive fan of 15 window buses; I've owned many examples including 2 of only 3 known RHD ribbed bumper 15's, both brought back to the UK from Sweden by me as rusty wrecks. The dream though; the golden ticket; was always to find a 15 window barndoor, and as such I've searched hard and been lucky enough to have been offered all 3 known "barndoor 15 windows".

The earliest, 20-017671, is well known in barndoor circles and was restored here in the UK before being sold Stateside.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Before Graham owned and restored this bus it was owned by a friend who offered it to me for sale, but after thoroughly looking it over and doing some research I turned it down because it was fairly obvious to me that it wasn't a genuine 15. Bobby, the owner of the bus, was very forthcoming in his views about the bus and the amount of work that it had received whilst in it's well documented Eastern Europe residency between 1959 and 1990. The roof had obviously been replaced, the rear end was full of filler, and it looked like it had been rolled at some point; the assumption was that whist repairing the crashed bus someone had added the "deluxe-style" rear end.

David Eccles transporter guide offers up a full page about the history of 20-017671,

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


and is the first reference that I can find about a 24S designation relating to a 15 window bus. Not only do we now know that this isn't true and is apparently a myth perpetuating from this bus being the only known 15 window at the time whilst also happening to have a 24S stamp, but that most, if not all, early 23's have this 24S stamp, (S meaning "spezial" or "sonder"?). I actually contacted the ever helpful Roswitha at the Wolfsburg museum at the time, who confirmed that there was no official VW 24S designation.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I believe that Florian and Rob are correct in their musings above, and that this stamp was added to "special" buses, like the early 23 windows that started life as simple sunroof buses The final confirmation not to buy this bus back then was receipt of the birth certificate which confirmed the bus as a Type 24A sunroof bus which, whilst an amazingly special bus, was not the bus that I saw in front of me or the bus that I wanted. I turned it down and kept looking.

So why don't I sleep at night? Because I now agree with everything that Rob and Florian state above. These 24A sunroof buses were taken off the production line and turned in to the very first 23 windows with hand crafted skylights and rear corner windows being added. The crashed and re-roofed sunroof bus that I turned down was in fact one of the earliest 23 windows in the world and, rather than buy it and restore it, I walked away from the damn thing Confused I kick myself every morning for this massive error of judgement because with a little more research maybe, just maybe, I would have had all this figured out and restored it to it's former glory. Incidentally, last I heard, the bus is still in the USA and the owner is planning to strip and re-restore her; hopefully in her original deep skylight 23 window guise since this is indeed a very special bus.

Talking of 15 windows, I also got offered the well known Italian '52 "15 window", which I was told by Walter Jelinek at the Bug Box in Germany who discovered her was an original 23 window bus that had been crashed and repaired. From viewing the bus it was obvious that the repairs were extensive; new nose, new doors, new later 23 roof, etc. and the history that I was informed of at the time from Walter before he was cut out of dealings with the owners and the bus sold from under him, doesn't tie with the story of this bus that circles today.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The UK restorer claims that the birth certificate shows it as a 24S which is a strange anomaly given what we know about early 23 windows and this "S" designation, and he was told that it was fixed after the accident at the Hebmuller factory, which had already closed down in May 1952 following the '49 fire and subsequent bankruptcy. Another early 23 restored incorrectly as a 15, (albeit a really pretty bus)? I believe so.....

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Last chance for me to own a known barndoor 15 was the Danish "gravel pit bus"; 20-044234.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Buried on his land by the second owner in 1964 after a troublesome journey to Norway and with prices to scrap cars similarly high to other Nordic countries, it was dug up by some Volkswagen enthusiasts who got to know Sieg in approximately 2010. Ordered new by Søren Madsen in January 1953, Søren allegedly wanted a deluxe bus but asked his local Volkswagen dealer for one "without the fancy sunroof and skylights". The extensive paperwork for this bus shows it as a 22A Standard Microbus and the birth certificate agrees whist also indicating that it was supplied in primer, (although it ended up soon after resplendent in brown and brown with full deluxe trim). There is a definite possibility that this primered standard was converted in the factory to fulfil Soren's order, and maybe even left wearing an "s" stamped vin plate, but I think it's more likely that it arrived at the dealership as a primered 11 window and was converted at a local coachbuilder by the dealer himself prior to sale. The vin tag is too rusty to read and so this is all hypothesis, but the lack of a factory photo showing a 15 window on the production line leans me towards the unlikeliness of this model ever being produced by Volkswagen; a true Unicorn in the world of Barndoor buses. As for 20-044234; yes I now own this bus. Factory conversion or dealer supplied conversion, the evidence strongly suggests that it's the only existing 15 window barndoor in the world that was ever sold new as a 15 window, and that's good enough for me.

Sorry to hijack this thread a little, but it seemed a good place to discuss all this given Florian's and Rob's great explanations of these early buses; and just to bring it all back full circle ..... who will be restoring my bus? Who do you think Twisted Evil Just look at how Florian's 23 started and how it looks now Cool

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Lind
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2021 7:20 am    Post subject: Re: 1951 Deluxe Micro Bus discovered - Second Oldest Samba Reply with quote

Awesome, truly awesome. Great research. I look forward to it's resurrection. What you guys do is truly amazing, saving buses that so many people considered un-savable.
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